Nightblood Solved! (Maybe?)

[Confused]

Brandon’s explanation for “corrupted” Investiture – a “mixing of different Shards” – raises a question about Nightblood’s history. How could Nightblood acquire another Shard’s Investiture before he left Nalthis? Warbreaker occurs before WoK.  Following is speculation built on “black smoke.”

I think Nightblood isn’t some piece of “steel” shaped like a sword. I think Shashara took a “dead” spren Shardblade from Roshar when the Five Scholars visited. Honor and Cultivation are the other Investitures comprising Nightblood.

Here’s the text description of Nightblood’s creation from Vasher’s point of view (Warbreaker, Kindle p. 569-70, emphasis added):

Quote

A thousand Breaths. That was what it took to Awaken an object of steel and give it sentience. Even Shashara hadn’t fully understood the process, though she had first devised it.

It took a person who had reached the Ninth Heightening to Awaken stone or steel. Even then, this process shouldn’t have worked. It should have created an Awakened object with no more of a mind that the tassels on his cloak.

Nightblood should not be alive. And yet he was. Shashara had always been the most talented of them, far more capable than Vasher himself, who had used tricks – like encasing bones in steel or stone – to make his creations. Shashara had been spurred on by the knowledge that she’d been shown up by Yesteel and the development of ichor-alcohol. She had studied, experimented, practiced. And she’d done it. She’d learned to forge the Breath of a thousand people into a piece of steel, Awaken it to sentience, and give it a command. That single command took on immense power, providing a foundation for the personality of the object Awakened.

Brandon further addresses this last bolded statement in his Warbreaker Annotations (emphasis added):

Quote

Nightblood, however, dwells quite heavily on the past. Though in some ways his mind is very capable, he has the quirk of being an Awakened object. The first hours of his life—during which time he met Shashara, Denth, and Vasher—imprinted heavily on him. It’s like . . . a part of his mind is hard forged in that moment with read-only memory that cannot be changed. Much of him can learn and grow, despite what Vasher says, but he cannot overwrite those initial concepts, states, and understandings that were burned into him during his birth.

Analysis

Vasher suggests Shashara competed with Yesteel for scholarly preeminence. I think she borrowed one of Vasher’s “tricks” – she took a Shardblade home from Roshar to experiment on and told the other Scholars it was “steel.”

The Scholars were among the earliest Worldhoppers. They may have heard stories of Shardblades, but didn’t know what Shardblades actually were: “Nightblood is an attempt by someone who didn’t know how Shardblades were made to create a Shardblade using a different magic system.”

The other Scholars wouldn’t recognize Nightblood as a “god metal” made from a spren of Honor and/or Cultivation. They’d just accept that an unrustable hard metal is “steel.” (Or maybe Shashara shouted to her colleague, “Yes – steel!” and they misunderstood her? Da-dum…)

Every other source stating Nightblood is Awakened “steel” derives from the quoted text, including fan questions and Brandon’s responses. If Nightblood really is steel, that forecloses my speculation. But maybe Shashara felt shamed Yesteel had “shown her up.” Maybe she found her own “trick” to prove herself. Consider the following evidence.

1. Brandon says Nightblood needs to feed on Investiture because he is “leaky.” But Endowment’s Investiture “sticks.” Stormlight “leaks.” Nightblood’s “black smoke” looks like the black smoke streaming from the eyes of those killed by a Shardblade.

2. 1,000 Breaths seems too few to Awaken and give consciousness to “steel.” “This process shouldn’t have worked…. Nightblood should not be alive.” Maybe 1,000 Breaths IS enough to Awaken the “dead” – unconscious – spren that comprises the Shardblade.

There are two paraphrased WoBs about this that may refer to the same conversation. One says “a piece of stone or wood or cloth or plain metal” with 1,000 Breaths “needs more” to be as Invested as Nightblood. The other RAFOs a similar question.

3. “Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere that is not a Shard.” If I am right, Nightblood permanently holds the Investiture of a full Radiantspren plus Breaths equivalent to half a Returned. Radiantspren themselves constitute a large amount of Investiture: “The Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer.” Shardblades also exceed the Investiture in the Bands of Mourning. Radiantspren and Breaths both naturally bond with humans and should have no problem bonding with one another. Breaths adjust to their holder’s Identity, even when the holder is a barely Awakened spren from Roshar.

Brandon says he can’t accurately compare Nightblood’s power with a Shardblade’s power, but “when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.” A footnote to that WoB says, “In the past Brandon has described Nightblood as being ‘magnitudes more invested than a shardblade’.” I’ve not seen that description. “Magnitudes” implies logarithmic orders of ten. That seems unlikely unless some of the Investiture Nightblood consumes adheres to him – making him “fatter” as one poster puts it. Without seeing Brandon’s description, I’m inclined to discount the footnote.

Even without absorbing new Investiture, holding a Radiantspren and half a Returned would still make Nightblood “one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere….” Brandon RAFOs questions about what happens to the consumed Investiture.

4. Nale treats Nightblood as the equivalent of a highspren Shardblade. Nightblood might have started as a highspren, a Skybreaker’s spren. But Shashara’s Awakening command to “Destroy Evil” permanently overwrites the spren’s original “ideal.” Discerning “evil” is Nale’s primary Divine Attribute – “Just.” “Justice” is a moral judgment, the weighing of good and evil. Nale attunes to an Investiture that wants to “Destroy Evil.” He wouldn’t have kept or given Szeth the sword if he didn’t sense the spren – and not just the Breaths or Awakened “steel” – inside Nightblood. Taln recognized Pattern inside Shallan when she visited him in the ardent hospital.

5. Nightblood “speaks” like a child, much like Syl did before her bond with Kaladin developed more fully. Vasher notices incipient maturity in Nightblood, as if Nightblood’s bond were also developing. I speculate below that Nightblood and Szeth will bond fully now that Nightblood’s back on Roshar.

6.

Quote

Shardblades are organic parts of the world they are on, but Nightblood is a bunch of souls stuffed into something. Nightblood is like a Frankenstein. (Source.)

The Frankenstein image of Nightblood as a patchwork of magics fits nicely. The full WoB is ambiguous. “A bunch of souls” might refer only to Breaths, but the "something" they are stuffed into could be a "dead" Shardblade - a spren.

Szeth Will Bond Nightblood-Spren

The spren constituting Nightblood is sufficiently Awake as to bond with its holders. Szeth’s soul is more broken than most – he’s been wrongfully made Truthless and then killed. Lift sees his soul’s “after-image.”

This opens opportunities for Nightblood to begin a more intrusive bonding process. I believe he will learn morality from Szeth – a warrior-priest turned unwilling assassin. Szeth has lived evil. He will know how to direct Nightblood to destroy it. In Szeth’s hand, Nightblood will become the “Sword of Retribution” pictured in WoR. Can he direct Nightblood to consume only the voidspren inside the listeners?

Nightblood will tell Szeth his spren-name. On Roshar he can form a Nahel bond with Szeth and give him the Skybreaker power to bind the Gravitation and Division Surges. Szeth will become a Knight Radiant, and Nightblood will be his Shardblade. “Nightblood can feed off Stormlight, but Szeth can't draw in Stormlight right now. So Szeth better not draw that sword, for a while at least. [Emphasis added.]”

*   *   *   *   *

That’s a lot of speculation to build from “black smoke.” Is there any fire there?

Edited April 22, 2017 by Confused

[dyring]

Nightblood is nowhere near large enough to have a "dead" shardblade inside of it, and their not supposed to be able to change once dead. Suppose there might be some way around it, if there was a spren(I doubt it myself) would it not have been more likely she caught a live one and brought back, altering it somehow?

About being leaky and this not fitting with Endowment, so are Returned. If they werent, they wouldent need another breath every week to stay alive.

Its not impossible, but to me it dont feel right.

Edited April 22, 2017 by dyring

[Djarskublar]

I highly doubt Nightblood is an ex-Shardblade. The main reason is this:

Quote

Herowannabe

My friend and I asked him something like this at a book signing, but for some reason it never seemed to make it onto 17th Shard. We asked if a shardblade or Nightblood could be used as a hemalurgic spike (i.e.: two different investitures of magic). Brandon said that yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full."

I don't think you could stuff a thousand breaths into something that can't even properly hold the additional small amount of Investiture that is in a spike. Sorry to burst your bubble. I mean, I guess it might be theoretically possible to get the Investiture to stick to a Shardblade, but... 1k breaths isn't reasonable. And beyond that, Shashara probably wouldn't even know enough about stuffing in extra Investiture to get it to work as a spike, let alone awaken it. My personal bet is that another Shard interfered with the awakening. There were other Shards actively watching the events of WoA, at least in the alternate ending, so I could see them directly intervening in something as interesting as this. Or maybe someone in the CR messed with it from there as it was being awakened. I don't know, but your scenario is the least likely of the possibilities I have seen and considered.

Other than that quote, it would have been an excellent idea.

1 minute ago, dyring said:

Nightblood is nowhere near large enough to have a "dead" shardblade inside of it

Actually, Nightblood is, as @Confused referenced, possibly the most Invested thing other than full Shards in existence. It's got a lot more than just 1k breaths.

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Actually, Nightblood is, as @Confused referenced, possibly the most Invested thing other than full Shards in existence. It's got a lot more than just 1k breaths.

Given that the rest of Dyring's statement was "..and their not supposed to be able to change once dead..", I think they meant physical size. Which is still inaccurate, and Szeth is used to wielding a more normal sized Shardblade, with nobody questioning it

[dyring]

17 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I

Actually, Nightblood is, as @Confused referenced, possibly the most Invested thing other than full Shards in existence. It's got a lot more than just 1k breaths.

What does how many breaths it contain have to do with physical size? For it to work,

Also, 1000 breaths is alot., and there really arent that many powerfully invested things around that could compete. Honorblades are not that much more then a locked in place spren on powerlevels.

11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Given that the rest of Dyring's statement was "..and their not supposed to be able to change once dead..", I think they meant physical size. Which is still inaccurate, and Szeth is used to wielding a more normal sized Shardblade, with nobody questioning it

Yup.

I seem to recall there was notice about an oddly small shardblade.. but cannot find it now. Not 100% certain that this was relating to Szeth´s blade. Either way, when you are fighting the mythical assassin in white, its doubtful if your going to stop and think about the unlikely size of his weapon.

 

There might well be something else in there. I just dont think a spren would make that big a difference, a spren is weaker then 1000 breaths in my mind, it wouldent make that big of a change to Nightbloods powerlevel.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by dyring
spelling and stuff

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, dyring said:

Either way, when you are fighting the mythical assassin in white, its doubtful if your going to stop and think about the unlikely size of his weapon.

If all you ever see are 6 foot buster swords, and somebody pulls a Katana on you, you're going to notice. Even as just a mental comment, his opponent's PoV should have some mention if it was actually out of place. 

Thats why I brought it up it, since I didn't remember any comments. Shardblades are so varied that a smaller blade shouldn't be too rare, so I.. implied.

[dyring]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

If all you ever see are 6 foot buster swords, and somebody pulls a Katana on you, you're going to notice. Even as just a mental comment, his opponent's PoV should have some mention if it was actually out of place. 

Thats why I brought it up it, since I didn't remember any comments. Shardblades are so varied that a smaller blade shouldn't be too rare, so I.. implied.

Coppermind states that all regular shardblades are 6 feet long thou, so if so it would be wrong aswell. We have at no time seen any mention of a dead spren shardblade that did not fit that description. The only exceptions are Honorblades and radiant blades(and nightblood)

"There are at least three types of Shardblades^[1]. Out of those, two types have been identified. Shardblades of the first type are about six feet long and a handspan wide and have only one edge. Those are the more common Shardblades."

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardblade

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by dyring
Added quote

[AeonaRin]

If we all agree that 1000 breaths is not enough to make a sentient blade, why do you think it is enough to manipulate already heavily invested object? We've been told time and time again that difficulty of affecting and invested object is proportional to the amount of investiture it holds. No way 1000 breaths would be enough to affect a shardblade. 

[Andy92]

The thing that seems odd to me with Nightblood is that apparently steel is incredibly difficult to Awaken, enough to where Vasher is surprised the 1,000 breaths actually worked. But not only did Nightblood Awaken, it also can talk/communicate, something you don't see from other Awakened objects such as clothes. So to a degree I understand where the OP's theory is coming from in that the breaths might have been used to Awaken something that was sentient at one time. And the only thing that resembles a sentient sword in the Cosmere that we know of is a Shardblade. 

Also, I don't see the big deal about how large the sword is. I thought spren could form weapons of various shapes/sizes? We've seen everything from huge blades, to spears, to...forks? lol And I thought Nightblood was like 5 feet long which is pretty large anyways. 

[Obnoxiousspren]

Not a bad theory! I don't think you are spot on, but I do think you are on to something. A lot of your points are very valid and may have some merit, but based off of some of the interview quotes I do think there are some problems with the theory. I'm not going to say it's impossible though... it could be true. 

Also, maybe Shashara and Vasher thought what they had was steel when they took it. Maybe they didn't realize it was something other than steel when they awakened it.

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

I don't think you could stuff a thousand breaths into something that can't even properly hold the additional small amount of Investiture that is in a spike. Sorry to burst your bubble. I mean, I guess it might be theoretically possible to get the Investiture to stick to a Shardblade, but... 1k breaths isn't reasonable. And beyond that, Shashara probably wouldn't even know enough about stuffing in extra Investiture to get it to work as a spike, let alone awaken it. My personal bet is that another Shard interfered with the awakening. There were other Shards actively watching the events of WoA, at least in the alternate ending, so I could see them directly intervening in something as interesting as this. Or maybe someone in the CR messed with it from there as it was being awakened. I don't know, but your scenario is the least likely of the possibilities I have seen and considered.

I think this could be likely. Maybe Endowment interfered and stuck a supercharged Breath into the process? Or maybe Vasher or Shashara used a Returned Breath somehow (I think I've heard that theory before). Hey, maybe Hoid was somehow responsible, who knows?

On another note, I think Nightblood started with 1000 breaths but has since absorbed other breaths and investiture and is now powered with way more investiture than he was at first. He could be "leaking" now because he is just holding too much investiture, beyond the limit he should.

[Calderis]

So a Shardblades and Nightblood couldn't be used as a Hemalurgic spike because they are "full." Breath attaches itself to things though. I think this idea could work, because your not filling an Invested object with breath. Your attaching 1000 breaths to the corpse of a spren. You've essentially made a Spren lifeless, with enough breath to grant a level of sentience. 

[The One Who Connects]

Ok, so I have something more definitive on how long Nightblood is. Brandon has said that it is "close to the Claymore weapon class in Dark Souls, but a tad smaller" Anyone who has played Dark Souls want to weigh in on how big that would be?

@dyring The Coppermind Article still considers two of the three types as small blades like Szeth's and large blades like Gavilar's, rather than Honorblades and Dead Sprenblades, which is more accurate. I'd even go as far as to say the third type is Living Sprenblades. 

Towards Nightblood's status as a Shardblade, Brandon has called Nightblood a "Third Generation Shardblade," with Honorblades being Gen 1 and Sprenblades being Gen 2. It is my opinion that Nightblood can't be a dead Sprenblade for this reason.

[AeonaRin]

22 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

Also, maybe Shashara and Vasher thought what they had was steel when they took it. Maybe they didn't realize it was something other than steel when they awakened it.

Impossible. Shardblade is essentially a splinter and it is hard to take of a planet it is connected to. The had to know a way to do it, so there is no way they would just mistake a Shardblade for a ordinary knife. 

[Obnoxiousspren]

Just now, strumienpola said:

Impossible. Shardblade is essentially a splinter and it is hard to take of a planet it is connected to. The had to know a way to do it, so there is no way they would just mistake a Shardblade for a ordinary knife. 

Oh yeah I forgot about that... Brandon did say Spren can't leave Roshar because they are too connected to it. I stand corrected.

[Andy92]

The Claymore on Dark Souls is a two-handed weapon that your character carries over the shoulder. It's a fairly large sword. There are larger weapons in the game, but the Claymore is bigger than your typical straight swords, long swords, katanas, etc. 

[Calderis]

I apparently edited this into a post in the wrong thread, so in addition to my first post... 

Edit: creating a lifeless from a Cognitive entity makes sense that they would be animated cognitively as compared to a physical corpse being only animated physically. If you animate a corpse that the Cognitive and spiritual aspects have been severed from, you have a flesh robot that follows a command. But if you animate a Cognitive corpse, you get a thinking robot that cannot physically move, but mentally can function along it's basic programming. 

[dyring]

8 hours ago, Andy92 said:

 

Also, I don't see the big deal about how large the sword is. I thought spren could form weapons of various shapes/sizes? We've seen everything from huge blades, to spears, to...forks? lol And I thought Nightblood was like 5 feet long which is pretty large anyways. 

Only blades with live spren can change shape. Its possible I suppose that a blade took a different shape when it was to be abandoned during the recreance, its just that we have never seen that so its really unlikely. 

 

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ok, so I have something more definitive on how long Nightblood is. Brandon has said that it is "close to the Claymore weapon class in Dark Souls, but a tad smaller" Anyone who has played Dark Souls want to weigh in on how big that would be?

@dyring The Coppermind Article still considers two of the three types as small blades like Szeth's and large blades like Gavilar's, rather than Honorblades and Dead Sprenblades, which is more accurate. I'd even go as far as to say the third type is Living Sprenblades. 

Towards Nightblood's status as a Shardblade, Brandon has called Nightblood a "Third Generation Shardblade," with Honorblades being Gen 1 and Sprenblades being Gen 2. It is my opinion that Nightblood can't be a dead Sprenblade for this reason.

I dont know dark souls, but a claymore in history was between 3 and 4 feet, including the handle. If its a tad smaller then 3 feet or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore

And yes, I called it Radiant blade instead of live sprenblade in my post, but it being the third type Brandon spoke of is fairly clear.

 

Either way, the wob that its difficult to remove a spren from Roshar seem to be the big thing so can drop the size discussion really since it dont matter no more.

[Djarskublar]

Ugh... the level of accuracy of people's comments kinda dropped since I last looked here, except for Mr. Connects, fortunately.

6 hours ago, dyring said:

What does how many breaths it contain have to do with physical size? For it to work,

Also, 1000 breaths is alot., and there really arent that many powerfully invested things around that could compete. Honorblades are not that much more then a locked in place spren on powerlevels.

To the first bit, a lot actually... Think of metalminds. Their size determines how much can be stored in them.

As for 1k breaths, it's a lot, but there are many things that are more, I would guess. If we say that a Divine Breath is an average sized splinter, and intelligent spren are average sized splinters, then Shardblades are worth approximately 2k breaths (yes, that is a really... imprecise estimate, but I stand by the idea that Blades are more than 1k Breaths). Also, you say Honorblades, but those aren't spren. You probably meant Shardblades. Maybe I'm just reading the sentence wrong. Regardless, Honorblades are probably more Invested than Shardblades, but not necessarily by a lot.

As for the small Blade, that would be the Honorblade Szeth ran around with. As to Nightblood's 'powerlevel,' 1k Breaths is a substantial portion of power, so it would make a difference, even if it is smaller than a spren (by about half, according to my estimate).

6 hours ago, strumienpola said:

If we all agree that 1000 breaths is not enough to make a sentient blade, why do you think it is enough to manipulate already heavily invested object? We've been told time and time again that difficulty of affecting and invested object is proportional to the amount of investiture it holds. No way 1000 breaths would be enough to affect a shardblade. 

My point is that Blades are too Invested to affect pretty much period. 1k breaths would be enough to do a lot of stuff, just not this. So you are essentially right, your wording was just a little strange to me.

5 hours ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

On another note, I think Nightblood started with 1000 breaths but has since absorbed other breaths and investiture and is now powered with way more investiture than he was at first. He could be "leaking" now because he is just holding too much investiture, beyond the limit he should.

I've seen this suggested before, but I don't think the two points follow each other. I think he might be absorbing more Investiture, but I don't think him overfilling is the reason he is leaking, otherwise Vasher likely would have noted at some point that he didn't do that initially. The reason he leaks is because of the mechanic of him stealing and then 'corrupting' the Investiture he takes.

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

So a Shardblades and Nightblood couldn't be used as a Hemalurgic spike because they are "full." Breath attaches itself to things though. I think this idea could work, because your not filling an Invested object with breath. Your attaching 1000 breaths to the corpse of a spren. You've essentially made a Spren lifeless, with enough breath to grant a level of sentience. 

And all a Hemalurgic spike does is attach bits of your soul to a piece of metal... Filling an Invested object is exactly what you are doing with breath.

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I apparently edited this into a post in the wrong thread, so in addition to my first post... 

Edit: creating a lifeless from a Cognitive entity makes sense that they would be animated cognitively as compared to a physical corpse being only animated physically. If you animate a corpse that the Cognitive and spiritual aspects have been severed from, you have a flesh robot that follows a command. But if you animate a Cognitive corpse, you get a thinking robot that cannot physically move, but mentally can function along it's basic programming. 

Ehh... While this may be true, I would guess that Nightblood can't move because it's not a flexible material. Steel is too stiff for it to move like a piece of cloth or a straw doll. You do bring up an interesting point, but I'm gonna take it with a large grain of salt.

 

As an aside, I want to correct a fundamental misunderstanding that may be present in some that read this thread. Dead sprenblades aren't any less Invested than live ones, their minds are just broken a bit.

Also, it should be possible to remove a spren from Roshar, it just isn't necessarily easy. If you are bonded to it, though, that should make it easier.

[dyring]

5 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

To the first bit, a lot actually... Think of metalminds. Their size determines how much can be stored in them.

As for 1k breaths, it's a lot, but there are many things that are more, I would guess. If we say that a Divine Breath is an average sized splinter, and intelligent spren are average sized splinters, then Shardblades are worth approximately 2k breaths (yes, that is a really... imprecise estimate, but I stand by the idea that Blades are more than 1k Breaths). Also, you say Honorblades, but those aren't spren. You probably meant Shardblades. Maybe I'm just reading the sentence wrong. Regardless, Honorblades are probably more Invested than Shardblades, but not necessarily by a lot.

As for the small Blade, that would be the Honorblade Szeth ran around with. As to Nightblood's 'powerlevel,' 1k Breaths is a substantial portion of power, so it would make a difference, even if it is smaller than a spren (by about half, according to my estimate).

 

For the size parts, no, it doesent have anything to do with physical size at that point. since a spren can shrink to fork size and still contain its full investiture, it does not need to be 6 foot long. So size is not an issue in this. You need to go back to the first post and reread, cause your not reading what your replying to(or atleast not understanding, wich may well be why you think post quality have decreased). I am talking about physical size and you reply with amount of breaths wich is just irrelevant at that point. Thus it could theoretically contain much more then it does while at full size to then hold the same "investiture density" as the forksized blade.

Then you argue about nightblood being the most invested and more invested then a shardblade, again, noone is disputing this, there is a WoB on it, stop making up arguments for others and then arguing against those.

And no, I meant Honorblade, wich is a type of shardblade. Because the honorblade does the same as a spren does but less well. The books concur on this - in bonding with the radiants the spren copied what Honor/Tanavast did with the honorblade, and frankly, they do it better(as they require less stormlight to power the effects)

Thus, honorblades are likely _less_ powerfull than a spren/regular shardblade. If it was more powerful, the spren would not be able to not only copy it, but to actually make it better. And in addition to this be sentient and learn wich an honorblade can´t. The only thing that makes an honorblade seem more powerful is that it does not have any checks in place wich makes it faster. But faster to use is not stronger.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by dyring
removing repetitions.

[Djarskublar]

3 hours ago, dyring said:

For the size parts, no, it doesent have anything to do with physical size at that point. since a spren can shrink to fork size and still contain its full investiture, it does not need to be 6 foot long. So size is not an issue in this. You need to go back to the first post and reread, cause your not reading what your replying to(or atleast not understanding, wich may well be why you think post quality have decreased). I am talking about physical size and you reply with amount of breaths wich is just irrelevant at that point. Thus it could theoretically contain much more then it does while at full size to then hold the same "investiture density" as the forksized blade.

Then you argue about nightblood being the most invested and more invested then a shardblade, again, noone is disputing this, there is a WoB on it, stop making up arguments for others and then arguing against those.

And no, I meant Honorblade, wich is a type of shardblade. Because the honorblade does the same as a spren does but less well. The books concur on this - in bonding with the radiants the spren copied what Honor/Tanavast did with the honorblade, and frankly, they do it better(as they require less stormlight to power the effects)

Thus, honorblades are likely _less_ powerfull than a spren/regular shardblade. If it was more powerful, the spren would not be able to not only copy it, but to actually make it better. And in addition to this be sentient and learn wich an honorblade can´t. The only thing that makes an honorblade seem more powerful is that it does not have any checks in place wich makes it faster. But faster to use is not stronger.

Actually, the reason they are smaller sometimes is because they aren't manifesting fully in the physical realm. It's not all of their power when they are a fork. Size still matters.

The Honorblades are far more powerful than sprenblades, we just haven't seen them in all their glory. Just wait until Taln starts using his. The Honorblades apparently provided the Heralds with a direct Connection to Honor, so they didn't need to breathe Light, they just obtained power and used it. Also, the Heralds had other abilities besides their two surges, but we don't know if they are inherent to them, or if they are provided by the Honorblades either. Honorblades are less efficient, not less powerful. They didn't need efficiency when power was never a problem. One misconception people have is that different powers are more 'powerful' than others, so they must use more Investiture. That's simply not the case. Powerful Aons use significantly less power than a powerful Stamp, even though the Aon is probably flashier. The power level is related to the type of effect and the efficiency in obtaining it, not flashiness. In that regard, sprenblades are more efficient, but less powerful.

And what do you mean by no checks in place = faster? I don't see what you are trying to say there.

[Farnsworth]

15 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

One misconception people have is that different powers are more 'powerful' than others, so they must use more Investiture. That's simply not the case.

While that is certainly true, Honorblades are likely to be far more invested than living sprenblades or dead sprenblades. Since they are not made of spren and were part of the Oathpact, the only explanation for their creation is that they were made by Honor. If this is the case, he likely invested very much in them and they are extremely invested.

[dyring]

39 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

. The power level is related to the type of effect and the efficiency in obtaining it, not flashiness. In that regard, sprenblades are more efficient, but less powerful..

So you mean shards(honor in this case) on purpose put in more investiture then needed into objects, either cause they willingly waste it, or because they are less competent then sprens. Possible, but sounds unlike to me.

39 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Actually, the reason they are smaller sometimes is because they aren't manifesting fully in the physical realm. It's not all of their power when they are a fork. Size still matters.

Well, youll need a wob or something on that, if you claim that whenever a shardblade it is less then 6 foot tall they keep the majority of theyr investiture away. Because.. its really far fetched.

39 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

 

And what do you mean by no checks in place = faster? I don't see what you are trying to say there.

Thats straight from the books so you´ll haveto read words of radiance again then. Its Syl who sais it, near the end.. "without the checks a spren requires." It means with an honorblade you can do whatever you want, as opposed to a radiant who cant.

I take you you do know that when you do not follow a sprens purpose, they eventually dies when you go far enough, like Syl does. There is no such limit on an honorblade. The wielder can do whatever.

*edit: Realized this is so much offtopic and really isnt fair for TS; so dropping this discussion/derailing of his thread;)

Edited April 23, 2017 by dyring
added and *edit text.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, dyring said:

Well, youll need a wob or something on that, if you claim that whenever a shardblade it is less then 6 foot tall they keep the majority of theyr investiture away. Because.. its really far fetched.

By default the majority of a spren's investiture is not in the physical realm, likely in the cognitive realm and spiritual. I think it follows then that when they materialize as a physical blade, they're only converting the required amount of investiture to matter to form the blade, and then endowing it with the required amount of investiture to create the effect. They're still maintaining a strong baseline of investiture outside of the physical in order to maintain their sapience, and since that's possible, I see no reason to think that they're compressing more investiture into smaller sized objects, when it could just be withdrawn.

[Djarskublar]

3 hours ago, dyring said:

Well, youll need a wob or something on that, if you claim that whenever a shardblade it is less then 6 foot tall they keep the majority of theyr investiture away. Because.. its really far fetched.

Some blades are smaller than others in the first place. I never claimed anything about 6 foot Blades specifically.

Dead Blades always (?) manifest the maximum size they can, or at least a large portion of it. Living Blades can hold themselves back to make a smaller, more useful object. I think Spool gave a solid explanation of the mechanic.

4 hours ago, dyring said:

Thats straight from the books so you´ll haveto read words of radiance again then. Its Syl who sais it, near the end.. "without the checks a spren requires." It means with an honorblade you can do whatever you want, as opposed to a radiant who cant.

Oh, that's what you meant? I know that. You said faster though, which has nothing to do with what they can/can't do. Spren require certain traits/outlooks, while Honorblades don't. Presumably they don't need to because the Heralds 'should' act Honorably regardless. On the other hand, I see nothing to indicate that an Honorblade allows you to surgebind with greater speed than a sprenblade, which is what your word choice implied to me.

4 hours ago, dyring said:

So you mean shards(honor in this case) on purpose put in more investiture then needed into objects, either cause they willingly waste it, or because they are less competent then sprens. Possible, but sounds unlike to me.

No no no. I'm saying that the Honorblades can do more, and they don't need or want to do it efficiently. Early cars weren't efficient because they didn't need to be. If oil hadn't been as plentiful, I'm sure they would have been more conservative with their designs. There was no reason to make the Honorblades more efficient. If anything, having them be less efficient is actually an advantage. If they have to draw in more power, they are more Invested, and harder to affect with other Investitures.

Radiants benefit from efficiency because the power they have access to is limited. If you have a limited resource, you conserve it (if you're smart). The Heralds aren't limited, so it wasn't a factor for them.

4 hours ago, Figberts said:

While that is certainly true, Honorblades are likely to be far more invested than living sprenblades or dead sprenblades. Since they are not made of spren and were part of the Oathpact, the only explanation for their creation is that they were made by Honor. If this is the case, he likely invested very much in them and they are extremely invested.

Yup. This exactly.

[+Extesian]

7 hours ago, Figberts said:

While that is certainly true, Honorblades are likely to be far more invested than living sprenblades or dead sprenblades. Since they are not made of spren and were part of the Oathpact, the only explanation for their creation is that they were made by Honor. If this is the case, he likely invested very much in them and they are extremely invested.

There was this nice one from the Boskone signing confirming this.

Quote

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?
A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.
Q: Like Vin and Elend?
A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

So not just made by Honor but a piece of Honor. A Splinter. As for the amount of Investiture, I wander for this reason if Honorblades aren't more invested than Shardblades, precisely because they were drawing their power directly from Honor. As @Djarskublar said, that access to enormous investiture means they don't need to be efficient (and we know they require more Stormlight to surgebind). If so, they don't need to be more invested, they just need to be invested in a way that gives access to endless investiture. The same way a piece of metal isn't that invested itself, but it accesses large amounts of investiture. And now Honor is splintered that investiture pipeline is cut off.

It's not decisive, if both Honorblades and Shardblades are splinters, the Honorblades could certainly be bigger ones. I just think the power of Honorblades doesn't prove that, their power came from a connection with Honor, not from their own inbuilt investiture. Like the mists.