Survivor of Death- Second Misborn era/ Whats Kelsier up to?

[OrcusOfUndeath]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Either way, Calderis is correct. Kelsier has no way of knowing what metal to use to spike out Divine Breath, if it was even spikable(normal breaths are not), or where to place the spike in himself. And all three of these points require him to understand the concept of Divine Breath in the first place.

But being a Sliver expands a person. I mean we specifically know his Cognitive Self is expended at least. So I think he'd way more easily understand such things than a regular person. The safest metal to use would be Trellium as we've seen it is capable of stealing a lot of stuff existing within the Spiritual Realm, so why not Divine Breath.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

But being a Sliver expands a person. I mean we specifically know his Cognitive Self is expended at least. So I think he'd way more easily understand such things than a regular person. The safest metal to use would be Trellium as we've seen it is capable of stealing a lot of stuff existing within the Spiritual Realm, so why not Divine Breath.

The safest would be Atium as that can steal anything. You'd still need to know the bind point though. Bind points aren't something that anyone who hasn't held the Shards of ruin is capable of just knowing. It's a precise system of spiritual theft via surgery. WoB's have implied that it's possible to steal multiple things with a single spike, but not with the way they currently do it. Which means it's a structured art, requiring memorization and practice no different than medical surgery IRL. Which means additional needing to know not only Hemalurgy as it applies to the metallic arts, but to Awakening for the idea to work. There's no way for them to learn how to steal a divine breath without being told how by Sazed (not going to happen) or through trial and error, which just isn't feasible. And as The One Who Connects pointed out, that's all assuming it even possible to steal a divine breath in the first place. 

[The One Who Connects]

6 minutes ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

But being a Sliver expands a person. I mean we specifically know his Cognitive Self is expended at least. So I think he'd way more easily understand such things than a regular person. The safest metal to use would be Trellium as we've seen it is capable of stealing a lot of stuff existing within the Spiritual Realm, so why not Divine Breath.

More easily understand such things does not(or should not) equate to Hemalurgy. TLR never managed to make anything new other than Kandra, Koloss and Inquisitors over 1,000 of testing. I have my doubts about Kelsier somehow understanding a completely new magic system to him without the prior knowledge TLR had, and on a completely different world.

If his "memory" from the coin in BoM was from Catacendre times with the Southerners, I don't believe Trellium could've even existed on Scadrial at that time.

Additionally, like Vin and TLR, he was a Sliver of Preservation. He didn't even get whispers from Ruin about Hemalurgy. It's all trial and error, but without any prior funding for the trial aspect.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

I'd say that stealing Divine Breath is almost certainly possible as we know that Hemalurgy can steal other forms of Investiture and this is a significant form of Investiture. I never heard of it not being able to steal breath in particular and its been difficult to read up on it with Theoryland down, but I can understand why it couldn't steal ordinary breath.

I agree that bind points are the greatest hurdle to overcome. But I think that experimenting with Trellium alone (as a blank slate) could help them in this. And Spook wasn't necessarily limited to Scadrial in experimenting with metals. We don't know exactly how it works but we know that it works on Kandra and that someone who isn't Saze knows how to do it.

And they've had hundreds of years to experiment with Hemalurgy in various ways and forms and the simple fact that (Cosmere aware) Kelsier is alive proves that they've done something extremely amazing and never before seen with it. So I don't think that any other development would be impossible per se.

They could have also joined forces with scholars from Nalthis and exchanged knowledge.

Edited April 23, 2017 by OrcusOfUndeath

[Knight Oblivion]

On 4/22/2017 at 5:50 AM, Chull #445 said:

Would it be possible to hijack a kandra/mistwraith and put Kelsiers Cognitive Shadow in it through hemalurgy? Then he could build his old body up from the bones.

I am not very good at hemalurgy, or cognitive shadows, but if this far-fetched idea is correct, it would basically make Kelsier a kandra.

 

Great, now i can't get the thought of Kelsier and Spook rounding up some poor mistwraith, giving it Kelsier's bones, and using Hemalurgy to somehow staple his cognitive shadow to it. :'(

 

On 4/22/2017 at 4:52 PM, The One Who Connects said:

More easily understand such things does not(or should not) equate to Hemalurgy. TLR never managed to make anything new other than Kandra, Koloss and Inquisitors over 1,000 of testing. I have my doubts about Kelsier somehow understanding a completely new magic system to him without the prior knowledge TLR had, and on a completely different world.

If his "memory" from the coin in BoM was from Catacendre times with the Southerners, I don't believe Trellium could've even existed on Scadrial at that time.

Additionally, like Vin and TLR, he was a Sliver of Preservation. He didn't even get whispers from Ruin about Hemalurgy. It's all trial and error, but without any prior funding for the trial aspect.

Ascending granted Rashek a bit of hemalurgical knowledge though. It was enough to create those three, radical constructs and use Hemalurgy on himself to pull of his most impressive feats. His bracers were his spikes. 

 

While I doubt that Kelsier would be able to experiment enough with Hemalurgy to know the bind points to steal a Divine Breath, he could have gotten some knowledge to start him off on doing some marvelously horrible stuff.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Knight Oblivion

[Yata]

44 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Ascending granted Rashek a bit of hemalurgical knowledge though. It was enough to create those three, radical constructs and use Hemalurgical on himself to pull of his most impressive feats. His bracers were his spikes. 

Mainly TLR's knowledge on Hemalurgy came thanks Ruin's whispers while He held the Well.

And no, his bracers weren't spikes. If you read a WoB about, It seems Brandon misunderstood the question or something like that

[Knight Oblivion]

22 hours ago, Yata said:

Mainly TLR's knowledge on Hemalurgy came thanks Ruin's whispers while He held the Well.

And no, his bracers weren't spikes. If you read a WoB about, It seems Brandon misunderstood the question or something like that

Seems pretty clear to me. "His arm bracers, which pierced his skin, were his spikes."

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#16

 

Also, sorry for the inelegance of my post. I'm on my phone.

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Seems pretty clear to me. "His arm bracers, which pierced his skin, were his spikes."

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#16

 

Also, sorry for the inelegance of my post. I'm on my phone.

I was thinking of that one as well but there's a subsequent clarification

Quote

LIGHTNING

My question to Brandon was why the Lord Ruler spiked himself. I didn't clarify initially that I meant with hemalurgic spikes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Once I did, Brandon said he thought they were not hemalurgic but only metalminds, and Peter backed him up on that

Source

 

[Knight Oblivion]

26 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I was thinking of that one as well but there's a subsequent clarification

 

Interesting, that also goes against the Mistborn annotations and other WoB saying that Rashek needed Hemalurgy to pull off some of his feats... Now I feel the urge to ask more clarification.

[+Extesian]

7 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Interesting, that also goes against the Mistborn annotations and other WoB saying that Rashek needed Hemalurgy to pull off some of his feats... Now I feel the urge to ask more clarification.

Yeah I didn't understand that either, when you have statements like this

Quote

DARXBANE (16 OCTOBER 2008)

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy).

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier

But I assume it means he used hemalurgy but just that the bracers themselves were not spikes (which would make sense as why would you use the one piece of metal for two different purposes, surely you'd have separate spikes and metalminds).

[Knight Oblivion]

13 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Yeah I didn't understand that either, when you have statements like this

But I assume it means he used hemalurgy but just that the bracers themselves were not spikes (which would make sense as why would you use the one piece of metal for two different purposes, surely you'd have separate spikes and metalminds).

Personally, I wonder why not both. Having the atium metalmind bracers have spikes makes less sense now. Metalminds that are invested would be mostly allomatically inert anyways.

[Yata]

6 hours ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Personally, I wonder why not both. Having the atium metalmind bracers have spikes makes less sense now. Metalminds that are invested would be mostly allomatically inert anyways.

Extra protection I think. If someone manage to gather enough power to pull/push on his metalminds (stacking Hemalurgy or with Durallumin) the not pierced one will be a "bait" because the ones that pierce his flesh would be still harder to affect

[The One Who Connects]

On 5/3/2017 at 0:35 AM, Extesian said:

(which would make sense as why would you use the one piece of metal for two different purposes, surely you'd have separate spikes and Metalminds).

Inquisitors used their spikes as Metalminds when they had applicable powers. Yata makes a valid point about extra Investment protection, but I think it's just for convenience. No point in carrying around even more weight than necessary

[Jazzy Kandra]

On 4/22/2017 at 7:58 PM, OrcusOfUndeath said:

I agree that bind points are the greatest hurdle to overcome. But I think that experimenting with Trellium alone (as a blank slate) could help them in this. And Spook wasn't necessarily limited to Scadrial in experimenting with metals. We don't know exactly how it works but we know that it works on Kandra and that someone who isn't Saze knows how to do it.

Not to be rude, but unless there's a WoB saying that Trellium acts as a blank slate, I would be weary of jumping to that conclusion. Atium is a lot "closer" to a blank slate because it can steal anything (more or less), so, Trellium probabaly does something else...like editing sDNA in interesting ways (and allowing kandra to use feruchemic/allomantic spikes). It probably also connects you to Trell and lets them into your head. How fun, more insane gods.

I'm of the opinion that Kelsier got back through a more mundane (read: Scadrial-based) metal. It could be atium (since that can act as a "substitute" for other metals that are...more rare), but I think that because spren in the Cognitive Realm can be spiked (source; while this is about granting them spikes, the opposite is most likely true too), Cognitive Shadows can be spiked as well because they are also Sapient Cognitive Entities. It might be more useful to figure out how to aim to spike the Investiture that Identifies as Kelsier's Cognitive Shadow while in the CR (Intent). There's also no guarantee that spiking a Shadow/spren wouldn't work differently (I've got a feeling once you spike them they're completely inside the spike with no "corpse). The biggest hurdle to the above, I think, is figuring out which mental can spike Identity and where to put it afterward...

I'm still of the opinion that Kelsier made a deal with Sazed in the end in exchange for helping the Southerners. He received knowledge (binding points; Intent; etc for this specific use of Hemalurgy), a new body using his old bones (Connection), a spike from Marsh, and Feruchemy so that he could create the medallions and the Excisors. It seems unlikely to me that he used a mistwraith more or less because kandra don't work that way and cannot use Feruchemy or Allomancy without help. It's extremely in character for him to do something like this, while also caring (on some level) about the Five Nations. I doubt he lost his sense of compassion overnight somehow, being egocentric doesn't mean he can't care for others on...a lower level.

---

Anyway, none of the above means he couldn't have drastically changed and become leader of or created the Set. I'm just throwing this out there (so you will ignore the theory above. Sneaky, eh?). The Set, Arrays, Sequences, and Suit, are actually terms used in math, computer programming (what, it's true!), and cards (for Suit). And I know that because Kelsier made references to Card Tricks as Cons in SH, there's a theory that he created/runs the Set as Trell's right-hand man. This is a bit of a counterpoint to that idea. I also find that, based on what we know of Kelsier's character, it seems somewhat unlikely. What the Set did to Allik and the other Malwish in BoM would probably piss Kelsier off (if he was aware, and he probably would be). Plus, the Set is also ridiculously slow on the upkeep. They barely understand how the medallions work, and they have no idea how to make them. If I was Kelsier, I would give my minions this technology and knowledge. It's useful. Even though the Set knows a ton about Hemalurgy, there's probably other ways they could have gotten that knowledge (somehow getting their hands on a copy of Spook's book seems like a possibility...) Finally, I doubt that Kelsier is all that interested in destroying Scadrial. That doesn't align with his agenda, or at least, didn't, and I don't think he's changed that much.

Whether or not he's "in charge", or at least, encouraging the other cities of the Basin to rebel...well...I could see that. I think Kelsier could easily (and rightfully) be disturbed and angered by how Elendel has treated the Outer Cities and try to encourage them to fend for themselves (even if that means wars). Those two "allies" in BoM (the Outer City Rebels and the Set) seem like strange bedfellows to me, however. It's a marriage of convenience, and one that I think will...break apart once/if the former find out what the Set wants to do. So...Yes. Kelsier is being a damnation problem, but I think if he's on the Set's "side" it's less that he's in charge of them (or aware of their actions), and more that he's trying to help the little guy (through bad methods, but eh, it's Kell).

I think he's far more interesting as a person who's just really bad at doing good but still wants to do it anyways (he just doesn't get that methods matter)... I also think that the Set is...well...something he doesn't like. At all. And will like a lot less come TLM...

[Fezzik]

1 hour ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

I would be weary of jumping to that conclusion.

LOL. Wary means cautious, weary means tired. Whichever you meant, they both work.

[Jazzy Kandra]

15 hours ago, john203 said:

LOL. Wary means cautious, weary means tired. Whichever you meant, they both work.

Considering how much I like puns in certain situations (less obvious and expected, more subtle than most), it was indeed meant to be "weary" in this case. But you've already caught me, I'm ashamed.