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Soulstone = Trellium?


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I just finished reading Emperor's Soul which was amazing. As I was reading through there was one thing that caught my attention and brought me back to Mistborn Era 2. On Day 97 (I think), Shai begins describing the appearance of Soulstone in detail for the first time.

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Soulstone, as a rock, looked not unlike soapstone or another fine-grained stone, but with bits of red mixed in. As if drops of blood had stained it.

This immediately made me recall descriptions of the unknown metal Bleeder was using in Shadows of Self, which they later dubbed "Trellium". We know that it is not a common metal because Harmony could not recognize it, and it is widely believed to be a god metal like atium or lerasium but from a different Shard not native to Scadrial. Shai eludes to that as well a few sentences after on the same page.

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Her ancestors had worshipped rocks that fell from the sky at night. The souls of broken gods, those chunks had been called.

Seeing how we know Odium at some point before the Oathpact went to Sel and splintered Dominion and Devotion, that quote sounds like part of the result of that action. Those events on Sel have been described as cataclysmic so invested stone/metal raining from the sky afterwards seems to fit.

 

I do not however think that means Devotion or Dominion are Trell; they are both splintered and their Vessels dead. It just means that the Set's "Faceless Immortals" have been on Sel or have other means of acquiring it. If the theory proves true, it would suggest that those "Faceless Immortals" are the same as the Svrakiss of the Derethi religion, and likely minions of Odium and/or his potential cohorts for the past however many millennia. Not to say that he is himself Trell, but I would be surprised if he wasn't involved regardless of his imprisonment on Braize. I have more in depth ideas about this latter part, but I am pretty confident that Soulstone is the god metal Trellium.

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2 minutes ago, RonaldinhoReagan said:

This immediately made me recall descriptions of the unknown metal Bleeder was using in Shadows of Self, which they later dubbed "Trellium".

Actually, we dubbed it so. The characters don't have a name for it, not yet.

I am curious why you jumped to "soulstone = trellium" directly, however, instead of visiting what I think is the much more obvious explanation of soulstone's unusual properties - that it is Aona's and/or Skai's godmetal. It certainly fits the "souls of broken gods" phrase much better. 

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I actually had a theory very similar to yours, positing that Trellium = soulstone. However, as @Argent pointed out, soulstone could be Aona and/or Skai's godmetal. It could be that someone (coughcoughautonomycoughcough) has co-opted some of the soulstone and sent it to Scadrial to wreak havoc and distract Harmony. 

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Just now, dashardie said:

I actually had a theory very similar to yours, positing that Trellium = soulstone. However, as @Argent pointed out, soulstone could be Aona and/or Skai's godmetal. It could be that someone (coughcoughautonomycoughcough) has co-opted some of the soulstone and sent it to Scadrial to wreak havoc and distract Harmony. 

Why do you believe that soulstone is the same material as Bleeder's spikes?

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9 minutes ago, Argent said:

Actually, we dubbed it so. The characters don't have a name for it, not yet.

I am curious why you jumped to "soulstone = trellium" directly, however, instead of visiting what I think is the much more obvious explanation of soulstone's unusual properties - that it is Aona's and/or Skai's godmetal. It certainly fits the "souls of broken gods" phrase much better. 

I probably should have taken a more step by step approach and stated that I believed it to be Aona or Skai's (or a combination of both) god metal before making the leap right to Trellium. However based on description and the likelihood that it is a god metal, I still believe it is too good a fit for Trellium to ignore.

And are you sure Marasi or someone never refers to it as Trellium? I read Era 2 recently and thought they did at least once.

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17 minutes ago, Argent said:

Why do you believe that soulstone is the same material as Bleeder's spikes?

Mainly due to the description of both having red streaks throughout - I'm at work right now, so I can't pull the relevant descriptions, but they did seem very similar. It could be that's literally the ONLY link, how they look, but this is Brandon we're talking about, so it's difficult to say for sure, to me at least.

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@Argent I'm having trouble finding a specific quote from SoS or Bands where Bleeder's spike is described so the description from Coppermind will have to do. With reference from SoS they say it's made of "a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust." Soulstone fits this description in many ways.

They both contain dark red spots, and the metal is described as having a cast. Soulstone has to be cast to turn it from soft and moldable into a hard metal i.e. when making a Soulstamp. Furthermore we know Bleeder's spike is made of a god metal, and as I stated earlier I believe it is evident that Soulstone is the god metal of one of both the Shards of Sel.

To clarify, I don't think either Devotion or Dominion are Trell. I just believe their minions have access to the metal or "Trellium" from Sel. In other words, Trellium would be an improper title because whoever Trell is I do not think this god metal comes from them.

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15 minutes ago, RonaldinhoReagan said:

And are you sure Marasi or someone never refers to it as Trellium? I read Era 2 recently and thought they did at least once.

Marasi makes the Trell connection, but doesn't give a name to the metal. 

1 minute ago, ZenBossanova said:

Interesting theory, but the biggest problem, is that the spikes were described as metal. Soulstone was NOT metal. In its native state, it could be easily carved by hand. 

There are metals that are pretty soft at room temperature, and they can be molded by hand, but I agree with your general idea - I don't think soulstone is metal, and the spikes definitely are.

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9 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Interesting theory, but the biggest problem, is that the spikes were described as metal. Soulstone was NOT metal. In its native state, it could be easily carved by hand. 

It may not be metal in name, but it is described as material that is soft and moldable but then once casted becomes as hard as quartz and can't be carved anymore. Is it not possible that the material was improperly dubbed "stone" by Shai's ancestors if many of the other pieces of the puzzle fit?

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46 minutes ago, RonaldinhoReagan said:

It may not be metal in name, but it is described as material that is soft and moldable but then once casted becomes as hard as quartz and can't be carved anymore. Is it not possible that the material was improperly dubbed "stone" by Shai's ancestors if many of the other pieces of the puzzle fit?

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"Each cylindrical stone stamp was as long as a finger and as wide as a man's thumb." 

TES pg 27, emphasis added

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"This is good stone."

TES pg 36, emphasis added, referring to the soulstamps brought to her by the arbiters

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"Soulstone, as a rock, looked not unlike soapstone or another fine-grained stone, but with bits of red mixed in."

 TES pg 133, emphasis added

I genuinely don't think it's the same material, but they certainly could be related. 

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16 minutes ago, bleeder said:

I genuinely don't think it's the same material, but they certainly could be related. 

So you don't think the quote about Shai's ancestors suggests a connection between Devotion & Dominion's splintering and Soulstone?

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Her ancestors had worshipped rocks that fell from the sky at night. The souls of broken gods, those chunks had been called.

That says to me that Soulstone is a physical manifestation of Aona, Skai, or both's power. Personally, between that and the very specific description of dark red splotches, it's too much for me dismiss over verbiage. And again, unlike normal stones it can be cast to become as hard as quartz (and can no longer be carved). I'm no geologist but I can't think of any other rocks that can be cast like metal. I think everyone is getting too hung up on the word "stone".

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Just now, RonaldinhoReagan said:

So you don't think the quote about Shai's ancestors suggests a connection between Devotion & Dominion's splintering and Soulstone?

That says to me that Soulstone is a physical manifestation of Aona, Skai, or both's power. Personally, between that and the very specific description of dark red splotches, it's too much for me dismiss over verbiage. And again, unlike normal stones it can be cast to become as hard as quartz (and can no longer be carved). I'm no geologist but I can't think of any other rocks that can be cast like metal. I think everyone is getting too hung up on the word "stone".

Spikes used in kandra are, by definition, metal. I can see soulstone being the same power manifested in a different solid, in this case rock (which would make sense as Devotion and Dominion are heavily invested in the land itself) but, once again, I really doubt it's the same material as Paalm's spike. 

Also, side note, I picture the spike being streaked with red, like rusty splotches, not particularly visually attractive, rather than soulstone, which Shai describes as being marbled and beautiful.

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14 hours ago, RonaldinhoReagan said:

So you don't think the quote about Shai's ancestors suggests a connection between Devotion & Dominion's splintering and Soulstone?

That says to me that Soulstone is a physical manifestation of Aona, Skai, or both's power. Personally, between that and the very specific description of dark red splotches, it's too much for me dismiss over verbiage. And again, unlike normal stones it can be cast to become as hard as quartz (and can no longer be carved). I'm no geologist but I can't think of any other rocks that can be cast like metal. I think everyone is getting too hung up on the word "stone".

Stones hardening under heat is something which is seen I think. Also, being hard as quartz doesn't mean it can't be carved, it just means that it's a lot harder, which is the point. Finally, I don't know where you're getting the thought of the stone being cast. That word is never used to describe the hardening of soulstone in the book, (it only shows up once in the actual story in reference to a chain), and even in the context you're using with regards to metal it's incorrect. When you cast metal, you're shaping it, not hardening it.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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I think it's most likely that it's the physical manifestation of a shard but I don't think it's metal so that does kind of rule out the bleeder spike thing. One thing that's kind of unlikely but the only thing that would make your theory work is that soul stone is an ore but doesn't really match up with other god metals or substances.

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I read the novella for the first time in AU not long ago, and I remember thinking that the soulstones reminded me of the Southerners' medallions in Mistborn. I don't think it's the exact same material, but I did feel like they were similar to one another. You can wear a medallion to gain power temporarily as long as you're wearing it, and with soulstone you see something similar when Shai turns into her warrior self at the end of the novella. 

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There's nothing really special about soulstone in that respect though. It's prized because it's easy to carve precisely (essential to making a proper stamp) and when fired it hardens and ensures the stamp stays as you carved it but lots of material can be used to make a soulstamp. You could carve one of Shai's Essence Marks onto a similarly sized cylinder of wood and as long as you could attain the necessary precision you'd get the exact same effect as a soulstone stamp, for long as the wood held its shape.

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I am with Weltall here, I think the Soulstone is simply a good carving tool without nothing strange (Realmatic) in it.

I am strongly aganist the idea of Soulstone==Godmetal as it doesn't fit with the basic proprieties of a godmetal...to have metallic nature.

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The descriptions do match up pretty well. Maybe we're taking the phrase 'godmetal' a bit too seriously as well. We've only seen them on Scadrial AFAIK. Perhaps since the planet's focus is metal, they manifest as metal there? 

Sel's focus is topography(earth/stone), and that might explain why a god-solid would manifest as a stone there. Do we have a WOB on godmetals being godmetal when made on worlds besides Scadrial?

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52 minutes ago, KnightGradient said:

Maybe we're taking the phrase 'godmetal' a bit too seriously as well. We've only seen them on Scadrial AFAIK.
Do we have a WOB on godmetals being godmetal when made on worlds besides Scadrial?

We have actually: Shardblades.

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Question: Are shardblades made out of atium?

Brandon: Shardblades are not but it is the same thing but from a different planet...  It’s made out of the god’s body.

Combine this with the WoB that Shardblades appear to have to be metal....

Quote

Question

Could they make a lightsaber?

Brandon Sanderson

They could make...metal weapons of a similar style to that, so no, we’re not talking lightsabers. Creating plasma is not something that we’re looking at.

 

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1 hour ago, KnightGradient said:

The descriptions do match up pretty well. Maybe we're taking the phrase 'godmetal' a bit too seriously as well. We've only seen them on Scadrial AFAIK. Perhaps since the planet's focus is metal, they manifest as metal there? 

Sel's focus is topography(earth/stone), and that might explain why a god-solid would manifest as a stone there. Do we have a WOB on godmetals being godmetal when made on worlds besides Scadrial?

 

1 hour ago, Figberts said:

They are both likely Godmetals. Maybe all Godmetals look similar? This could make a lot of sense. Maybe stone is Harmony's Godmetal. That would explain why Shin don't walk on it.

From the @The One Who Connects 's WoB and some dialogue in Edgedancer seems that solid Investiture have to be metallic in nature everywhere in the Cosmere.

Scadrial's magic is linked to metal so it could use the Solid Investiture AKA Godmetals....but this is all

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/18/2017 at 2:01 PM, RonaldinhoReagan said:

So you don't think the quote about Shai's ancestors suggests a connection between Devotion & Dominion's splintering and Soulstone?

That says to me that Soulstone is a physical manifestation of Aona, Skai, or both's power. Personally, between that and the very specific description of dark red splotches, it's too much for me dismiss over verbiage. And again, unlike normal stones it can be cast to become as hard as quartz (and can no longer be carved). I'm no geologist but I can't think of any other rocks that can be cast like metal. I think everyone is getting too hung up on the word "stone".

Heat makes metal less hard but more tough. The entire process of tempering involves reheating metal then cooling it to remove some hardness since toughness is inversely related to hardness in metals (which means that a hard material is more brittle). Casting is the process of shoving a heated liquid into a mold to get a specific shape when cooled and solidified.

 

Soulstone is described as being similar to chalk, soft but even more easy to carve, and becomes hard like quartz. Our two comparisons are thus a sedimentary carbonate rock and an oxide mineral. The process of hardening soulstone actually sounds similar to the metamorphic process of turning limestone to marble. Well, a metamorphic process that isn't seen on Earth as only a small amount of heat and no apparent pressure is needed for the change.

 

Also, I've read TES several times. The mention of Shai's people having worshipped stones from space sounds more like cultish meteorite worship. There's nothing in the novels that connects those meteorites with soulstone. 

Edited by Knight Oblivion
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