Why do Truthless exist? (Potential WoR spoilers)

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, dyring said:

The shitty thing really is..... this punishment would normally be given to someone who lied or decieved right?

 

So not someone who would hold their word like Szeth would. So why not just go do their own thing? Szeth wont because hes fanatically lawful.. but if truthless is not a one time punishement, then even if its rare most of those punished will likely be liars/decivers or something.

Why would they follow the rules, follow the orders given by the one holding the oathstone?

I think you are misunderstanding the power of cultural norms. Social norms, and the stigma attached to them is incredibly strong in people. 

For example, in the US (and other places) it's perfectly acceptable for a man to be topless, but not a woman. What logical reason is there for this? Pointing out its illogical doesn't make women feel comfortable topless in public though.

One example off the top of my head. And a fairly benign one. There are much more harmful ones, and most are never considered because they are ingrained into us by growing within a society.

The shin are an interesting people, and the cultural values seem to be particularly strong. I don't think it would be likely for someone, barring a true psychopath, to disregard the expectations of the Oathstone. Whether that is obedience or suicide. 

Edit: this punishment seems to be the equivalent of an execution, only for a people who view violence as a last resort so extreme that they won't even kill as punishment. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Calderis

[dyring]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

For example, in the US (and other places) it's perfectly acceptable for a man to be topless, but not a woman. What logical reason is there for this? Pointing out its illogical doesn't make women feel comfortable topless in public though.

True, but if this one woman have gone topless in public of her own choice, its quite likely she may be ok with doing so again. And thats the point, the people convicted of this have most likely broken those social stigmas in a major way already - unless they are innocent like Szeth was(they wont be giving out honorblades for minor infractions - there is only 8 of them after all).

Mind you, it may be harder while still in Shinovar where people know what it means, but the windrunner honorblade isnt the only one that allows for fast movement, so getting out of shinovar and away form condeming eyes shouldent be that difficult. To switch back to the other example, most women would propably be more ok with going topless on a beach far away while on holiday, then they would doing so on their own beach near home where all friends and family would notice.

(Personally, Im swedish, and when I was a teen in the 90ies women being topless on beaches was rather standard. Atleast half of the females did. Now thats changed and noone does anymore )

Edited April 13, 2017 by dyring

[Calderis]

@dyring Fair point. But the title "Truthless" seems to imply to me that this isn't a punishment for violence, or even intentional deception. The title implies that he is being punished for believing and spreading a harmful falsehood. As if his crim were not speaking a lie, but belief, making him "Truthless" or incapable of recognizing truth.

It seems to be a very specific punishment, for a crime I think only the devout could accidentally commit. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Still seems stupid to give him the honorblade, for so many reasons. If we ignore their way of getting back the Honorblade, all the deaths and the fact that there only can beseven Truthless at the same time, we also have the fact that a Truthless might be commanded to kill the Stone Shamans. They dig their own grave, pretty much.

Also, what if the Heralds return, and all the Honorblades are gone? What would the Shin elders say to Jezrien and Co?

"Sorry guys, we gave your almighty magical superswords to a bunch of criminals despite knowing that they probably would kill millions of innocent people in the nations that you died several times to protect."

This sounds like Suicide Squad.

[Ciridae]

I am mostly curious about what it was exactly that made Szeth claim that the voidbringers had returned. Do the Shin even have parshmen? Alternatively he could have seen some kind of animated rock monster, but I feel like other people would have noticed that. 

Maybe, since the Shin revere the spren of the stones, the Shamans misinterpreted what they were seeing. But then again why would Szeth be the only one to realize that something was fishy? 

The theory I like the most is that a spren began bonding Szeth and he deduced that if the spren are returning, then so will the voidbringer. In this case the stone shamans could have given him the honorblade to tempt his masters to order Szeth to commit violent crimes, which would have most likely gotten rid of the spren. But nothing in Szeth's interludes indicates that he has had experiences with strange spren.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

From what I remember from reading WoR, he believed that the knights radiant had returned/were the void bringers. This explains why he realized he was right when he saw Kaladin use his abilities.

[+Wax]

I think it's an interesting area for several reasons:-

How did Szeth decide that desolations were coming?  Was he invested or did he see investiture before he became truthless?

If the Shin had all the honorblades, then they should have a truthwatcher honorblade.  Why wouldn't they just test it with that and pass judgement then?  Perhaps the Shin chose not to use the truthwatcher honorblade, which seems possible (people can be obstinate).

Truthless is such a strange punishment.  Exile someone, sure.  But, exile them with an honorblade and an oathstone requires a level of weirdness that's on another level.  They would need to have evidence to believe that Szeth wouldn't throw the oathstone in the bin and run off.

Some shin would need to go back and retrieve the honorblade on Szeth's death.  That would again require knowledge of Szeth's death and knowledge of the location of honorblades.  Again, the only things that can assist with that is a Truthwatcher honorblade or some kind of Alerter fabrial with massive investiture.

Overall, the whole thing is a little mysterious.  Then there was this quote in WoR about one of the heralds coming up with a way to preserve knowledge between desolations.  Given that the Shin have honorblades, I had automatically assumed they must be keepers of the info.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by axcellence

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, axcellence said:

I think it's an interesting area for several reasons:-

How did Szeth decide that desolations were coming?  Was he invested or did he see investiture before he became truthless?

If the Shin had all the honorblades, then they should have a truthwatcher honorblade.  Why wouldn't they just test it with that and pass judgement then?  Perhaps the Shin chose not to use the truthwatcher honorblade, which seems possible (people can be obstinate).

Truthless is such a strange punishment.  Exile someone, sure.  But, exile them with an honorblade and an oathstone requires a level of weirdness that's on another level.  They would need to have evidence to believe that Szeth wouldn't throw the oathstone in the bin and run off.

Some shin would need to go back and retrieve the honorblade on Szeth's death.  That would again require knowledge of Szeth's death and knowledge of the location of honorblades.  Again, the only things that can assist with that is a Truthwatcher honorblade or some kind of Alerter fabrial with massive investiture.

Overall, the whole thing is a little mysterious.  Then there was this quote in WoR about one of the heralds coming up with a way to preserve knowledge between desolations.  Given that the Shin have honorblades, I had automatically assumed they must be keepers of the info.

 

Unless the Illumination and progression resonance is indeed the visions Renarin is experiencing, the truthwatcher blade wouldn't aid them, and even then they'd have to make sense of the visions. 

The skybreaker ability to sense guilt, which is implied is a resonance, would be much more fitting, but Nale has that blade and thus they couldn't use it. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Calderis

[+Wax]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Unless the Illumination and progression resonance is indeed the visions Renaissance is experiencing, the truthwatcher blade wouldn't aid them, and even then they'd have to make sense of the visions. 

The skybreaker ability to sense guilt, which is implied is a resonance, would be much more fitting, but Nale has that blade and thus they couldn't use it. 

I am guessing there would be visions of surgebinding, but yeah, it might be tricky for people to make sense of it (assuming someone wields it rather than it sitting in some Shin temple or stuck in the stone, Camelot style).

Just the way to decide someone is so wrong to be given the punishment of truthless oathstone without evidence either way seems exceptionally harsh.  And we still don't know how the Shin intended to or have been tracking Szeth.

 

[stonedshaman]

I believe that truthless is a punishment reserved for the higher up stoneshamans and that as the heads of the stoneshaman Religion it is their duty to hold the blades to keep them safe (How can they be stolen if they're bonded by the most revered in the country).  I remember seeing a topic similar to this about a year ago and this to me seemed like the most feesable concept.

[grayhicks]

actually, in one of szeth's interludes, he does mention that should he die, the shamanate would send someone to retrieve the honorblade. now, this doesnt really, help in determining the nature of his punishment, i know, but i needed to clarify that. i do think it is religious, likely szeth , either as a member of the shin clergy, however that is organized, or as a scholar of some sort, saw the signs, or just might have come up with the theory on his own on whim, predicted the return of Radiants, and/or voidbringers. he seems to make mention of the knowledge of both being related to his sin. but the shamanate doesnt believe. i think that might go back to the what yall have said about the shin seeing the heralds as their gods, which is a belief shared with most of roshar, though the actual nature of how divine people see the heralds seems to very from nation to nation, depending on whether or not that nation is vorin. when the heralds broke the oathpact, we know they went out into the world. jezrien ( i hope i spelled that right) did say that they would tell the common folk that the desolation they had just survived, in the prologue of WoK, was the last one, and it was for 4500 years. the shamanate might have been told, in person, by those they deem gods, that their would be no more voidbringers. and maybe, and this is an unfounded hypothesis, they might have returned to the shamanate, who keep their honorblades, at the Recreance, and said that there would be no more radiants. how the shamante tied those 2 facts from heaven together might depend on long a time gap there was between the last desolation and the recreance. what szeth seems to have espoused to his superiors would have been a complete slap in the face of god-delivered doctrine. thus everything he said, and believed, would have been heresy and blasphemy against the gods.

[Mistform]

The Shin consider soldiers to be lowly, they have Oathstones just like a Truthless.

Quote

“Shin are a curious folk,” he said. “Here, warriors are the lowliest of men—kind of like slaves. Men trade and sell them between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership, and any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same. (I-4 Way of Kings)

He visited Urithriu just after being declared Truthless. Later on in WoR he considers staying their but he cannot do it.

Quote

The first time he had visited this place—just after being exiled from his homeland- (I-10 Words of Radiance)

Quote

If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy. (I-10 WoR)

They consider the Knights Radiant to have fallen and stones in the East to be cursed. So he was made a soldier (who are lowly), the Honorblade gives him the power of a Knight Radiant (soldiers and oath breakers so even lowlier I predict), and exiled to the East where he would be forced to walk on cursed stone.

Quote

The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him. The spirits of the stones themselves promised it. The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains. All that remains. . . . Truthless. (I-10 WoR)

Szeth had only been Truthless for seven years in Way of Kings (so about a year before the assassination of Galivar I believe). Given his skill with the Honorblade, he clearly had martial skill before being made Truthless. This skill could have come from being a soldier and given that soldiers also have Oathstones, he would be used to obedience and being treated like a slave.

As for the Honorblade retrieval, by being exiled he would be on stone all the time, so perhaps the Shamanate could do some sort of magic.

[+Wax]

1 hour ago, Mistform said:

The Shin consider soldiers to be lowly, they have Oathstones just like a Truthless.

He visited Urithriu just after being declared Truthless. Later on in WoR he considers staying their but he cannot do it.

They consider the Knights Radiant to have fallen and stones in the East to be cursed. So he was made a soldier (who are lowly), the Honorblade gives him the power of a Knight Radiant (soldiers and oath breakers so even lowlier I predict), and exiled to the East where he would be forced to walk on cursed stone.

Szeth had only been Truthless for seven years in Way of Kings (so about a year before the assassination of Galivar I believe). Given his skill with the Honorblade, he clearly had martial skill before being made Truthless. This skill could have come from being a soldier and given that soldiers also have Oathstones, he would be used to obedience and being treated like a slave.

As for the Honorblade retrieval, by being exiled he would be on stone all the time, so perhaps the Shamanate could do some sort of magic.

 

 

 

 

That's an interesting quote you have, "The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him. The spirits of the stones themselves promised it. The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains. All that remains. . . . Truthless. (I-10 WoR)"

So, there were spren (unless spirit of the stones is another kind of entity) who advised that the Knights Radiants hadn't returned?

Interesting why some spren would say so.  Also, it puts paid to my theory on someone using the Truthwatcher honorblade.  Clearly, there were spren who expressed that KR hadn't returned, which got taken as gospel.

Also, interesting that he had gone to Urithiru after going away from the Shin.  Now, Shinovar is at the opposite end from Urithiru, but close to Alethkar.  Is it reasonable to assume that the Shin accessed Urithiru via the oathgate, and from there dispatched off Szeth at the next available opportunity? Otherwise, it is a fair way to make from Shinovar to Alethkar on foot or wagon!

Edited April 18, 2017 by axcellence

[ScavellTane]

They have the Elsecaller Honorblade?

[Mistform]

47 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

They have the Elsecaller Honorblade?

They have ALL of the Honorblades so they should have that one.

[The One Who Connects]

9 hours ago, Mistform said:

He visited Urithiru just after being declared Truthless.

7 hours ago, axcellence said:

Is it reasonable to assume that the Shin accessed Urithiru via the Oathgate? Otherwise, it is a far way to make from Shinovar to Alethkar on foot or wagon!

Szeth was sold to Vstim by Thresh-son-Esan, more than likely while in Shinovar, as the rest of the Shin wouldn't leave their lands. The timing of his Urithiru visit is made all the more curious by this fact. Although, if he had practice with his lashings beforehand.. hrrm.

Also side note: They do not have Nalan or Taln's Honorblades, so yes they have both blades with the Transportation Surge.

[EC11]

11 hours ago, Mistform said:

The Shin consider soldiers to be lowly, they have Oathstones just like a Truthless.

He visited Urithriu just after being declared Truthless. Later on in WoR he considers staying their but he cannot do it.

They consider the Knights Radiant to have fallen and stones in the East to be cursed. So he was made a soldier (who are lowly), the Honorblade gives him the power of a Knight Radiant (soldiers and oath breakers so even lowlier I predict), and exiled to the East where he would be forced to walk on cursed stone.

Szeth had only been Truthless for seven years in Way of Kings (so about a year before the assassination of Galivar I believe). Given his skill with the Honorblade, he clearly had martial skill before being made Truthless. This skill could have come from being a soldier and given that soldiers also have Oathstones, he would be used to obedience and being treated like a slave.

As for the Honorblade retrieval, by being exiled he would be on stone all the time, so perhaps the Shamanate could do some sort of magic.

These are some good points. Szeth does have martial skill, something very uncommon in Shin society, so his being a soldier before being declared Truthless could have been a previous punishment. He must get the martial skill from somewhere.

The idea that he was a member of the clergy before is interesting. It might be that he picked up a weapon at some point and was demoted to being a soldier from a higher position perhaps? 

[Zeldan]

On 4/14/2017 at 0:08 AM, grayhicks said:

the shamanate might have been told, in person, by those they deem gods, that their would be no more voidbringers. and maybe, and this is an unfounded hypothesis, they might have returned to the shamanate, who keep their honorblades, at the Recreance, and said that there would be no more radiants.

I like this theory. It makes sense that Szeth's beliefs regarding the Radiants would be considered heresy, leading him to become a heretic, or "Truthless".

As for why he has an Honorblade, I think that the Shin might pass ownership of the blades to individuals at the top of their religious hierarchy for safekeeping, and are likely expected to keep them for life. It is possible that Szeth was a highly educated Shin shaman, or at least something of equivalent note, and was given this responsibility, and that his studies later lead him to the discovering the return of the Radiants. This would also explain his skill with the blade, as he would likely have had access to it's powers for quite some time before he became Truthless.

I highly doubt that a simple soldier would have discovered the Radiants return off the bat, with no formal education of these sorts of matters, without having gained the powers himself, and he doesn't have a Nahel bond as far as we know, and no hints have been dropped that he has a spren following him around all this time. I suppose that it is possible that he was one, and that he came across someone else with these powers, but I think that's stretching it a little bit personally. If he was a soldier, how would he have received the Honorblade? If one was given to every fool who spouted heretical teachings, I'm sure they'd run out very quickly, even in a devout society, which is why I'm in favor of him having it in his possession before he becomes Truthless, and based on this, I find it more likely that something like the Honorblades would hold great spiritual value to the Shin, and therefore be more likely to be bestowed upon someone within the clergy.

Considering this is all theory though, my own thoughts included, it's all good fun, and I love all the perspectives!

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Also side note: They do not have Nalan or Taln's Honorblades, so yes they have both blades with the Transportation Surge.

Maybe they can utilize these blades to summon Szeth's blade in the event that he is defeated? This would explain why Szeth is so certain that they would be able to recover it should he fall?

And, if this isn't how it is done, does this maybe mean that the Shin will go after Kaladin in order to recover the blade?

 

*Yay! 200th post!

[The One Who Connects]

14 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Maybe they can utilize these blades to summon Szeth's blade in the event that he is defeated? This would explain why Szeth is so certain that they would be able to recover it should he fall?

And, if this isn't how it is done, does this maybe mean that the Shin will go after Kaladin in order to recover the blade?

 

*Yay! 200th post!

You can teleport items/people with you, but I don't think they can just "accio" the Honorblade to them the way you are thinking. They should have to go and get it, and then they could teleport back with it.

Congrats on 200, now just gotta hit the big 1K like I did

[Zeldan]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

You can teleport items/people with you, but I don't think they can just "accio" the Honorblade to them the way you are thinking. They should have to go and get it, and then they could teleport back with it.

Congrats on 200, now just gotta hit the big 1K like I did

I agree. I think Szeth probably believes the Shin can reclaim the blades because(going along with previous theory) there are others among the Shin currently holding the remaining Honorblades.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Zeldan said:

I agree. I think Szeth probably believes the Shin can reclaim the blades because(going along with previous theory) there are others among the Shin currently holding the remaining Honorblades.

Szeth trained with other Honorblades. Chances are fairly good that others of the Stone Shamanate are trained in surgebinding and other martial arts. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[dyring]

Its likely a monastic order with martial abilities as part of their training.

One guess would be on weaponless training, or perhaps certain things is acceptable even without counting as a soldier. If you are really skilled with a long stick and have the conditioning, learning the sword shouldent be that hard. And being the only one with stormlight would make you look better then you are.

And more likely, since they need to be ready to reaquire honorblades, a number of people need to be trained with them. Otherwise it would become really difficult to get it back if say someone like Adolin got in a lucky blow and got himself a honorblade. Skilled Duelist who aquired surgebinding and stormlight healing.. could be nasty.  

I mean, Gavilar wasent that far from winning the fight, of the assassinations we´we seen, thats where Szeth´s been having the most trouble. Ofcourse, its been noted that Dalinar was particulary good with shardplate(the chasmfiend hunt where he catches the claw), maybe Gavilar was too.

*edit

Wonder if the shamans will try to get the honorblade back now. Wonder who gets it. The best choices would be Dalinar if the stormfather lets him(since he cant use a regular one), or Adolin, as he is likely the best non-radiant fighter, and would likely be able to learn to use it well.

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by dyring

[Zeldan]

3 hours ago, dyring said:

Its likely a monastic order with martial abilities as part of their training.

One guess would be on weaponless training, or perhaps certain things is acceptable even without counting as a soldier. If you are really skilled with a long stick and have the conditioning, learning the sword shouldent be that hard. And being the only one with stormlight would make you look better then you are.

And more likely, since they need to be ready to reaquire honorblades, a number of people need to be trained with them. Otherwise it would become really difficult to get it back if say someone like Adolin got in a lucky blow and got himself a honorblade. Skilled Duelist who aquired surgebinding and stormlight healing.. could be nasty.  

I mean, Gavilar wasent that far from winning the fight, of the assassinations we´we seen, thats where Szeth´s been having the most trouble. Ofcourse, its been noted that Dalinar was particulary good with shardplate(the chasmfiend hunt where he catches the claw), maybe Gavilar was too.

*edit

Wonder if the shamans will try to get the honorblade back now. Wonder who gets it. The best choices would be Dalinar if the stormfather lets him(since he cant use a regular one), or Adolin, as he is likely the best non-radiant fighter, and would likely be able to learn to use it well.

 

That's kinda what I was getting at, but I didn't really explain myself properly. I think they will come for it more likely than not, although I do not know whether or not it will be in Oathbringer or the book after. I would expect it to be in Oathbringer, but I'm unsure whether the Shin would be quick to act, or wait before they come to claim it, and even if they do, I wonder if they will even take it back when they come to Alethkar, only to find a new order branded as the Knights Radiant, wielding the powers of the old order. Will they accept them for what they are, or will they brand them Heretics as well...

I'm pretty sure Dalinar is always referred to as the stronger, more skillful of the two brothers with Shardplate and Blade. After all, Dalinar was the one who became known as "The Blackthorn".

I don't know who will get the Honorblade. The Stormfather was very clear that Dalinar would not be allowed any shards, however we don't no if the Honorblades would be considered a shard from the Stormfather's perspective or not. At the moment, I'm gonna say that he's not the one who wields it. My guess, is that they will give it to one of Kaladin's men(perhaps the Mighty Lopen! it would make sense, considering he'll never be able to wear appropriate shardplate with his missing arm, and the blade doesn't work as effectively with plate anyways, plus it will bring him up to par, and beyond, with other fighters, where he's been at a disadvantage), or someone deemed honorable by Dalinar. Not much point in giving it to Renarin, as he is now a Radiant, and Adolin seems to do well with his combined Shardplate and Shardblade, but I'm not sure how well he would do if he had to forgo the plate for the power advantages of the Honorblade. He's been practicing with these his whole life, so in my opinion, it would be best if he stuck to what he was good at.

 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

3 hours ago, Zeldan said:

I don't know who will get the Honorblade. The Stormfather was very clear that Dalinar would not be allowed any shards, however we don't no if the Honorblades would be considered a shard from the Stormfather's perspective or not. At the moment, I'm gonna say that he's not the one who wields it. My guess, is that they will give it to one of Kaladin's men(perhaps the Mighty Lopen! it would make sense, considering he'll never be able to wear appropriate shardplate with his missing arm, and the blade doesn't work as effectively with plate anyways, plus it will bring him up to par, and beyond, with other fighters, where he's been at a disadvantage), or someone deemed honorable by Dalinar. Not much point in giving it to Renarin, as he is now a Radiant, and Adolin seems to do well with his combined Shardplate and Shardblade, but I'm not sure how well he would do if he had to forgo the plate for the power advantages of the Honorblade. He's been practicing with these his whole life, so in my opinion, it would be best if he stuck to what he was good at.

I'm not sure that the Stormfather said that Dalinar couldn't have any shards, just that he himself would not be a sword for him. Since the remaining shard blades are dead spren and would result in mental screaming if Dalinar picked one up, I think he made a generalization that Dalinar wouldn't be able to get a shardblade.