Why do Truthless exist? (Potential WoR spoilers)

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

This came to me while I was thinking about what might happen in the next book. Why are Truthless a thing in the Shin culture? What purpose do they actually serve? Because, when you think about it, it is an incredibly weird punishment. "Oh what's that? You broke one of our laws? Congratulations you're a murder slave". Why on earth would the Stone Shamans make this a thing, where they give someone an honor blade, and then tell them to obey the commands of anyone with the Oathstone? What exactly does this punishment accomplish? 

On a secondary note, while I was typing this I started wondering what would happen if an Oathstone broke. Would each fragment of the Oathstone be considered an individual Oathstone, allowing for multiple masters? What if masters gave conflicting orders?

[Pagerunner]

If I recall correctly, there's nothing magical about an Oathstone, so I don't think we'd get any paradoxical situation like "What would happen if Pinocchio said his nose would grow?" It all depends on how the Truthless will act and behave, if they'd view the destroyed Oathstone as a chance for freedom, or if they just go and get a new Oathstone and give it to their master.

For the first, it doesn't look like a very common punishment, it seems like a response to a religious infraction of some sort. He's not a criminal, he's a heretic in exile. I'm sure we'll see more specifics in Szeth's flashback book (either Stormlight 4 or Stormlight 5), but until then, you are right that it is quite odd.

[stonedshaman]

What better punishment than to require someone to constantly do something they consider wrong/evil.  Also pagerunner is right it's a religious thing

[IntentAwesome]

Maybe the oathstone doesn't normally come with an honor blade. Maybe that was a little intervention on the part of Mr. T.

"Ah but they were left behind It is obvious from then ature of the bond But where where where where Setoff Obvious Realization like a pricity They are with the Shin We must find one Can we make to use a Truthless Can we craft a weapon —From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first"

I agree it's a terrible punishment, but I do think it's odd that the Shin, who are normally a peaceable people, would inflict such harm on other people, albeit indirectly. 

[Calderis]

@IntentAwesome Taravangian didn't visit the Nightwatcher until after Gavilar's assassination. So Szeth already had the Honorblade.

[IntentAwesome]

@Calderis Now that you mention it, I remember something along those lines. Is there a WoB on that? But it makes that diagram quote even more confusing. The wording is ambiguous, but it seems to imply that Mr T was involved, or planned to be involved, in what happened to Szeth. 

[Calderis]

I live on mobile and suck at finding WoB but I'll try. If I remember the word of Brandon correctly though, someone asked if the assassination was before or after, then Brandon started to answer, said he had to check with Peter for the time line and it was later clarified as after

[VirtuousTraveller]

I think one becomes Truthless when it has been proven that they've told a serious lie.  Szeth was made truthless after (I assume) he told the Shin elders that the Knights Radiant have returned (or at least their powers have, or that spren are bonding with people again).  Because this couldn't possibly be true, they condemned him to this punishment of being "truthless," where he forfeits his right to exercise judgment over his behavior (since he's a grand liar) and must rely on other people to tell him what to do.

The irony is that Szeth is not at all Truthless, because what he told the Shin was true.  When he learns this at the end of WoR, he must now accept that all of the terrible things he did were not because he was lying or going crazy (making him justifiably Truthless), but instead were things he did as an honest Shin person.  This is why I think we're going to experience an "Anakin and the Sandpeople" moment when Szeth goes home to Shinovar in Oathbringer.

[soulcastJam]

I would say the punishment is symbolic. 

You are made to carry an honorblade, the very thing the heralds should be doing but did not because they are the epitome of truthless. It is the ultimate shame, being compared to the heralds, betrayers of mankind. That sounds like the way Shin would think.

[Spoolofwhool]

26 minutes ago, soulcastJam said:

I would say the punishment is symbolic. 

You are made to carry an honorblade, the very thing the heralds should be doing but did not because they are the epitome of truthless. It is the ultimate shame, being compared to the heralds, betrayers of mankind. That sounds like the way Shin would think.

The Heralds are the Shin gods though. Also, no one considers the Heralds to be traitors, only the Knights Radiant. 

[stonedshaman]

And if I remember correctly szeth was made truthlessfor claiming that the voidbringers had returned.  (Could be wrong there is a strong mist settled over my brain at times)

[Krandacth]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The Heralds are the Shin gods though. Also, no one considers the Heralds to be traitors, only the Knights Radiant. 

Actually, Nale claims that he is Szeth's god because Szeth has stuck so ridgedly to the laws of his people, rather than because he is a god to Szeth's people. Szeth even calls him on it, saying his gods are the stones and the trees, to which Nale replies that that might be who the Shin worship, but not Szeth.

So it's entirely possible that the Shin know more about the Heralds than the rest of Roshar, and see them as Truthless. However, I see no reason to suspect that, other than Szeth being both Truthless and in possession of an Honorblade (which might be more disconnected than we think, given what Vstim tells Rysn about the Shin guards in WoK).

[Zeldan]

I think there is a much deeper religious element to this punishment. As mentioned by Pagerunner, he is a heretic, and so, I think his punishment would be similar to that of a heretic in our world: Excommunication. For those who are unfamiliar, Excommunication is essentially the same as being damned to hell, before you die. There is a passage, although I can't remember exactly where it is(if someone knows where it is, I'd appreciate it if you would post it here), where Szeth mentions that he would rather have his soul survive in eternal torment than for it to be destroyed, which is why he does not kill himself(I'm assuming that he would meet the same result if he decided to quit obeying the holder of his stone). and so, based on this, they essentially gave him only two options: Destroy his own soul, or live a life committing every atrocious act that he was raised to abhor, and still be eternally damned. My guess is that he is probably the first and only Truthless to decide to keep living, at least for this long before deciding to kill themselves, which is not what the Shin expected of him when they pronounced judgement.

This is just my thought on the matter.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

My main question about this was why make such societally damaging punishment. If it was just the oathstone, it might be "fine" since this would just force him to do things against his will. However, the Shin give him a shardblade, guaranteeing that people will ask him to do violent tasks. Not only that, the shardblade they gave him grants him special powers that people haven't seen before, further increasing the amount of destruction he can cause, especially since he can't take his own life.

If becoming a Truthless as punishment for some lie is supposed to have religious overtones, why do they make it so that his punishment will inevitably lead to the harm of others? And if for some reason they just have to give a Truthless a shardblade, why give them an Honorblade, something that should likely be protected?

Additionally, Szeth accepts his situation, which suggests that Truthless are a known part of his culture, not some obscure punishment that had never been used before. If this is true, since I doubt that people were regularly claiming the return of Voidbringers, what level of falsehood is considered Truthless severity?

Edited April 12, 2017 by Faceless Mist-Wraith
Spelling

[Zeldan]

You have to keep in mind that these people would have been brought up being taught how horrible these type of actions were, to the point where they would rather die, soul included, than commit these actions themselves(again this is purely speculation, as there has been very little information given about the Shin, but I personally get the impression they are very devout people). It basically puts them in a situation where they would have to renounce everything that they believe, or commit suicide, which I think is a rather effective punishment. The stone itself has no power, and so, if they renounce everything, then they will have no reason to obey someones orders, and will then simply live in exile. Either way, the individual is removed from the society.

[Unhinged]

2 hours ago, Zeldan said:

I think there is a much deeper religious element to this punishment. As mentioned by Pagerunner, he is a heretic, and so, I think his punishment would be similar to that of a heretic in our world: Excommunication. For those who are unfamiliar, Excommunication is essentially the same as being damned to hell, before you die. There is a passage, although I can't remember exactly where it is(if someone knows where it is, I'd appreciate it if you would post it here), where Szeth mentions that he would rather have his soul survive in eternal torment than for it to be destroyed, which is why he does not kill himself(I'm assuming that he would meet the same result if he decided to quit obeying the holder of his stone). and so, based on this, they essentially gave him only two options: Destroy his own soul, or live a life committing every atrocious act that he was raised to abhor, and still be eternally damned. My guess is that he is probably the first and only Truthless to decide to keep living, at least for this long before deciding to kill themselves, which is not what the Shin expected of him when they pronounced judgement.

Thanks for posting that, Szeth's situation makes a lot more sense to me now, the Shin want to give him one of the two worst punishments they can imagine either condemned to all eternity with the voices of the one's he's killed or cessation of existence under the Shin belief system there's no way to make him suffer these fates without forcing him to kill people of course they don't want him to kill other people from Shinovar so they throw him out into the lands beyond and let him run wild.

That said if this is true it's somewhat chilling to see just how little the shin think of the "stonewalkers" that the idea of killing hundreds or thousands of them just to ensure that one man even a Truthless is given the ultimate punishment doesn't seem to faze them.

Also to answer you about why Szeth lasted as long as he did I think that deep down Szeth had at least a gut feeling that his punishment was wrong and that's why he was able to hold on as long as he did.

[Zeldan]

16 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

Thanks for posting that, Szeth's situation makes a lot more sense to me now, the Shin want to give him one of the two worst punishments they can imagine either condemned to all eternity with the voices of the one's he's killed or cessation of existence under the Shin belief system there's no way to make him suffer these fates without forcing him to kill people of course they don't want him to kill other people from Shinovar so they throw him out into the lands beyond and let him run wild.

That said if this is true it's somewhat chilling to see just how little the shin think of the "stonewalkers" that the idea of killing hundreds or thousands of them just to ensure that one man even a Truthless is given the ultimate punishment doesn't seem to faze them.

Also to answer you about why Szeth lasted as long as he did I think that deep down Szeth had at least a gut feeling that his punishment was wrong and that's why he was able to hold on as long as he did.

I agree, he most likely did think that he was correct about the return of the Radiants. I also think it does a great job of revealing how he values life vs. the soul, and this is likely a reflection of the Shin as a people as well, although Szeth may very well be the pinnacle of this mindset, considering how far he was willing to go to uphold his faith and save his soul. 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Actually, Nale claims that he is Szeth's god because Szeth has stuck so ridgedly to the laws of his people, rather than because he is a god to Szeth's people. Szeth even calls him on it, saying his gods are the stones and the trees, to which Nale replies that that might be who the Shin worship, but not Szeth.

So it's entirely possible that the Shin know more about the Heralds than the rest of Roshar, and see them as Truthless. However, I see no reason to suspect that, other than Szeth being both Truthless and in possession of an Honorblade (which might be more disconnected than we think, given what Vstim tells Rysn about the Shin guards in WoK).

No, Nale says that the Shin people revere the spirits of stone, but worship the Heralds. Also, the first line from Nale indicates that he is referring to the gods of the Shin religion, not Szeth's personal gods. 

Quote

“Who are you?” Szeth asked.

“You spend this long obeying the precepts of your people and religion, yet you fail to recognize one of your gods?”

“My gods are the spirits of the stones,” Szeth whispered. “The sun and the stars. Not men.”

“Nonsense. Your people revere the spren of stone, but you do not worship them.

 

[Krandacth]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

No, Nale says that the Shin people revere the spirits of stone, but worship the Heralds. Also, the first line from Nale indicates that he is referring to the gods of the Shin religion, not Szeth's personal gods. 

 

Ah, I interpreted that very differently... Whilst it is more ambiguous than I remember, I think both interpretations make sense here. Nevertheless, I concede that the ambiguity makes it useless as support for my statement. Carry on.

[Rasha]

Spoiler

 

Keep in mind that we don't know if Szeth was given his honorblade because he was a truthless or not.

Maybe Szeth was one of the "high priests" tasked with keeping the blades safe, and so he was send in exile alongside it. There may be no precedent in the Shin society for someone so high falling so low.

 

 

On a side note, that would be counterproductive that the Shin admit to send the blade away if their intention was to keep them safe, but I don't think Szeth had it in him to steal it before going in exile.

[Yata]

7 minutes ago, Rasha said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Keep in mind that we don't know if Szeth was given his honorblade because he was a truthless or not.

But in his mind he placed the inability to give away the Blade as part of Truthless's limitations

[Krandacth]

9 minutes ago, Yata said:

But in his mind he placed the inability to give away the Blade as part of Truthless's limitations

He only says that is one of the two things he must refuse to do if ordered by his master. That could also be the case if he had custody of the blade for another reason: the rule regarding never relinquishing any Honorblade in your possession may supersede the rule to, as a Truthless, obey your master in all things (except seeking your own death).

[Rasha]

5 minutes ago, Yata said:

But in his mind he placed the inability to give away the Blade as part of Truthless's limitations

 

Yet, is every Truthless given an honorblade ? Or did Szeth have a special status/task beforehand (garding the honorblade) that made the Shin add this limitation in his Truthless status ? We don't know yet.

The nature of Truthless is very rare in the Shin society, because people rarely commit a "crime" of the magnitude that Szeth did. Yet, it would seem strange that in the whole history of Shin society, only 9 people COULD be made Truthless, because if each Truthless is given a blade, they may in some distant future run out of honorblades. Is szeth the first Truthless of the Shin ? We don't know either.

 

The shin don't have any connection to present szeth, and are living remotely which means that they would learn of his death very late after the fact, which might make recovering his honorblade impossible. Yet he is given one before being made Truthless anyway. It doesn't make sense to give some of your most sacred artifact to your worst class of criminal.

[The One Who Connects]

@Rasha

8 actually. Nalan took his blade back so they can only give out the remaining 8 Blades.

You make a fair point about when they discover his death, but Szeth is very certain that it will be recovered by the Stone Shamans after his death. They must have something to guarantee its recovery, and Szeth believes it will work.

I think this means that Szeth is not the first Truthless, and has seen this recovery method in action. I cannot even remotely prove this, but I feel like it's feasible.

[dyring]

The shitty thing really is..... this punishment would normally be given to someone who lied or decieved right?

 

So not someone who would hold their word like Szeth would. So why not just go do their own thing? Szeth wont because hes fanatically lawful.. but if truthless is not a one time punishement, then even if its rare most of those punished will likely be liars/decivers or something.

Why would they follow the rules, follow the orders given by the one holding the oathstone?