Aesudan Kholin, Theories and Speculations

[thegatorgirl00]

15 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

The question is, what was Aesudan like before her descent into paranoia and erratic behavior began? Was she a smart and competent person before all this? Because I can't imagine Elhokar marrying her if she had behaved even remotely as she does now, at the time. He was the heir to the throne of Alethkar for god's sake and she would be the future queen, you don't let just anybody into this position. Even if she and Elhokar were in love, I can't see Navani and Gavilar permitting their union if they weren't satisfied that Aesudan was savvy and competent enough for the job.  

It's possible they knew she wasn't capable and had to accept a marriage to her anyways. If her father was a powerful Highprince who didn't like Gavilar that much, a marriage alliance would be the easiest way to secure power. Rejecting her would mean offending her father and further war. For Game of Thrones fans, just think about what led to the Red Wedding. Besides, based on what we've seen and heard of Gavilar, I'm not convinced he paid as much attention to Elhokar's actions and decisions as he should have. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

I doubt they were expecting someone like Pai coming along and kickstarting the riots. I think they are an unintended consequence of actions meant to let the church step in and stabilize things after some political and social maneuvering on the part of the Sons of Honor. 

This may be but I think it's fair to say the the general populace of Kholinar were already upset with Aesudan's rule, Pai's actions and subsequent death was the last straw, at which point the people decided enough was enough. But there would already have been discontent and anger towards her even before that and I think that even without Pai, the riot may still have happened eventually, perhaps much later but as some point people would have been fed up one way or the other. I can't imagine Sons of Honor not taking this into consideration.

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

As far as Aesudan's involvement with them, that depends on two things. Aesudan herself and Restares views of the gender roles in Vorinism. Aesudan because her intellect and ability at politics and subterfuge would be a major deciding factor of her involvement. Restares... There is a distinct gender separation in Vorinism, and depending on how Restares sees that separation he may have viewed it as against his (questionable) morals to bring a woman into his plans, they are called the Sons of Honor after all. It could also be as simple as him seeing her as an easy tool to manipulate after she developed a relationship with Elhokar. No matter the reason, I don't think that if she is his daughter, that that automatically means she's in on the plan.

Agreed. Though from what we know of Vorinism and its' view on gender roles, politicking doesn't seem to be considered unfeminine and improper for women to take part in. Still we don't really know the Sons of Honor's interpretation and view of Vorinism.

Ok let's get back to Jasnah. Let's examine her action with the assumption that Aesudan is indeed connected with the Sons of Honor. This would be a sufficient enough motivation for Jasnah to want her dead. She wouldn't trust Sons of Honor, considering they're religious fanatics and she an atheist and a 'heretic'. But was she aware of their existence then?

She has some knowledge of secret societies in the present day - she knows of Ghostbloods, and it's not a stretch to imagine she's aware of Sons of Honor as well. though she seems to be somewhat ignorant of the Diagram's existence so far as I can tell. But what about before Gavilar's death? Obviously Jasnah is super smart, savvy and observant so it's pretty likely that she would have been aware even then of some of them. It's also worth noting that from the little interaction between her and Amaram, she appears not to have a high opinion of the guy, this doesn't necessarily mean anything but it's worth noting.

  

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

43 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

It's possible they knew she wasn't capable and had to accept a marriage to her anyways. If her father was a powerful Highprince who didn't like Gavilar that much, a marriage alliance would be the easiest way to secure power. Rejecting her would mean offending her father and further war. For Game of Thrones fans, just think about what led to the Red Wedding. Besides, based on what we've seen and heard of Gavilar, I'm not convinced he paid as much attention to Elhokar's actions and decisions as he should have. 

I get what you're saying. But I'm not convinced, sure her father might be a powerful man and securing such an alliance is important obviously but if she was this incompetent she would pose as much risk to the families power and position - which she has done so far - as potentially offending her powerful family. Besides there are other ways besides marriage to secure alliances and loyalties.

Also while I can see Gavilar not being attentive enough about these things, I can't imagine Navani not being heavily involved with choosing her son's potential wife and the future queen.

*Also thanks for bringing back Red Wedding memories, not painful to think about at all  

Speaking of Aesudan's father, if we're right an he's Restares, and considering Gavilar knew of Restares and seemed to consider him a threat, could the marriage between Aesudan and Elhokar have been a deliberate attempt on Gavilar's part to secure an alliance with the Sons of Honor? Maybe his and their goals aligned at the time? Or so might have Gavilar thought at least.  

 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Speaking of Aesudan's father, if we're right an he's Restares, and considering Gavilar knew of Restares and seemed to consider him a threat, could the marriage between Aesudan and Elhokar have been a deliberate attempt on Gavilar's part to secure an alliance with the Sons of Honor? Maybe his and their goals aligned at the time? Or so might have Gavilar thought at least.  

 

I don't think Gavilar thought he was a threat at that point. We see Gavilar speaking with Amaram on the night of his assassination. As he's dying he assumes Thaidakar sent Szeth, and the reaches for both Reatares and Sadeas as alternate options. Considering Sadeas' actions that night, I think he realized that those two could potentially gain from his death, but that he didn't expect a threat from either.

On the topic of the unrest in Kholinar, I think that's exactly the point. They didn't expect Pai to kick off riots, but by creating an environment of unrest, they were hoping to put the church forward as a better alternative to the current system. They would have wanted to step in before things reach the violence that Pai instigated, but they inadvertently created an environment for exactly that to take place. If an unmade or other such source is influencing Aesudan, it's very possible that her behavior has made things worse faster than they planned on, but the type of animosity we see is exactly what would be needed to try and create a revolution for the Vorin church. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think Gavilar thought he was a threat at that point. We see Gavilar speaking with Amaram on the night of his assassination. As he's dying he assumes Thaidakar sent Szeth, and the reaches for both Reatares and Sadeas as alternate options. Considering Sadeas' actions that night, I think he realized that those two could potentially gain from his death, but that he didn't expect a threat from either.

Doesn't the fact that Gavilar thought these two could potentially gain from his death, automatically make them threats to him?

 

51 minutes ago, Calderis said:

On the topic of the unrest in Kholinar, I think that's exactly the point. They didn't expect Pai to kick off riots, but by creating an environment of unrest, they were hoping to put the church forward as a better alternative to the current system. They would have wanted to step in before things reach the violence that Pai instigated, but they inadvertently created an environment for exactly that to take place. If an unmade or other such source is influencing Aesudan, it's very possible that her behavior has made things worse faster than they planned on, but the type of animosity we see is exactly what would be needed to try and create a revolution for the Vorin church. 

Agreed completely.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

Something to add to Jasnah's side of things. Something caught my attention in my most recent reread of the WoR prologue, specifically Jasnah's inner thoughts after her brief encounter with her father in the palace corridors:

Quote

Hopefully he hadn't discovered her meetings with assassins - but if he had, she would work with that knowledge

  Assassins. Plural. So Jasnah had been meeting with more than one assassins? Who else? and why? obviously one assassin would be more than enough to deal with Aesudan, especially one as highly skilled as Liss - so I would assume that there had to be some other individual(s) she was planning to have assassinated. Who could they be? Did Jasnah actually successfully assassinated anyone before Gavilar's death? I don't think so personally but still it's a question to consider.

Could Restares be one candidate? Thaidakar, whoever he is? Even Sadeas maybe? Someone else? Or Am I just barking up the wrong tree here?

[Ciridae]

If I remember correctly Jasnah had a deal with Liss to contact her if anyone ever asked her to assassinate one of the Kholins and she would match the offer for the name of the would be employer. I assume she had this kind of deal with other assassins, it's the logical thing to do. But I still wouldn't put it past her to have other people watched and on a potential hit list if she felt that they were or could become a threat to her house.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

27 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

If I remember correctly Jasnah had a deal with Liss to contact her if anyone ever asked her to assassinate one of the Kholins and she would match the offer for the name of the would be employer. I assume she had this kind of deal with other assassins, it's the logical thing to do. But I still wouldn't put it past her to have other people watched and on a potential hit list if she felt that they were or could become a threat to her house.

Exactly! it's a totally Jasnah thing to do, to have potential threats to her family watched and be ready to have them killed if necessary. Question is who could these potential threats be?

[Fulminato]

i think pai a member of the diagram, the riot in kholinar are the best outcome for mr.T if he want take the power. Graves kill Elkhorar, Dalinar fell before Sezth, whit Aesudan out the picture... cook up  and you have a full scale war highprince against highprince, probably worst of jad keved succession war.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Fulminato

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

13 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

i think pai a member of the diagram, the riot in kholinar are the best outcome for mr.T if he want take the power. Graves kill Elkhorar, Dalinar fell before Sezth, whit Aesudan out the picture... cook up  and you have a full scale war highprince against highprince, probably worst of jad keved succession war.

While the riots resulting from Pai's actions are definitely in favor of Mr. T, I don't see her being a part of the Diagram. She just seemed to earnest in her devotion to the Vorin faith, I really think she was all she appeared to be, especially since she had to no trouble publicly humiliating Aesudan which she would have known would end with her death, not something an agent of a secret society would readily do. Still I could always be wrong, and Brandon can always surprise us, so who knows 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Fulminato]

8 minutes ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

While the riots resulting from Pai's actions are definitely in favor of Mr. T, I don't see her being a part of the Diagram. She just seemed to earnest in her devotion to the Vorin faith, I really think she was all she appeared to be, especially since she had to no trouble publicly humiliating Aesudan which she would have known would end with her death, not something an agent of a secret society would readily do. Still I could always be wrong, and Brandon can always surprise us, so who knows 

pai started the rioting in less of a day since she enter in the queen's retinue. i think there are a setup. perhaps pai don't is a diagramist herself, but can be the man has choose her assignemnet, putting the woman in the right position to maximize the damage.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

1 minute ago, Fulminato said:

pai started the rioting in less of a day since she enter in the queen's retinue. i think there are a setup. perhaps pai don't is a diagramist herself, but can be the man has choose her assignemnet, putting the woman in the right position to maximize the damage.

hmm...now this is a real possibility. I like this theory. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

Do you think that being an actual monarch makes you vulnerable to Odium? Elhokar, Gavilar, Aesudan, Taravangian have all made decisions that hurt the KR and aid or speed along the Last desolation.

[Ciridae]

6 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Do you think that being an actual monarch makes you vulnerable to Odium? Elhokar, Gavilar, Aesudan, Taravangian have all made decisions that hurt the KR and aid or speed along the Last desolation.

I would think that people in positions of great power would be prime targets for Odium's influences. I don't think they are more vulnerable than anyone else, but their position and influence makes them more likely to be targeted.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ciridae

[Efebre]

aesudan was controlled by hemalurgy

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

13 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I would think that people in positions of great power would be prime targets for Odium's influences. I don't think they are more vulnerable than anyone else, but their position and influence makes them more likely to be targeted.

Yeah I'm with you on this one

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

1 hour ago, Efebre said:

aesudan was controlled by hemalurgy

I can't honestly say if you're being serious with this or not 

[Efebre]

18 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

I can't honestly say if you're being serious with this or not 

not

[Saskshard]

Are we sure that Aesudan has no relationship with Sadeas.  It would make sense from a politics standpoint to join their houses together to try and help stabilize Alethkar.  It would also provide future intrigue with Adolin's actions at the end of WoR.   In terms of why Jasnah was suspicious of Aesudan, is there a way that Ivory could have noticed some kind of influence from Odium and was trying to get a message to her warning about the influence.  

[maxal]

9 hours ago, Saskshard said:

Are we sure that Aesudan has no relationship with Sadeas.  It would make sense from a politics standpoint to join their houses together to try and help stabilize Alethkar.  It would also provide future intrigue with Adolin's actions at the end of WoR.   In terms of why Jasnah was suspicious of Aesudan, is there a way that Ivory could have noticed some kind of influence from Odium and was trying to get a message to her warning about the influence.  

I was once convinced I had read Aesudan was Sadeas's niece, but turns out I just imagined things  Still, I think it would be an interesting plot development.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I was once convinced I had read Aesudan was Sadeas's niece, but turns out I just imagined things  Still, I think it would be an interesting plot development.

What do you think these shadows that elhokar, Shallan' father and many others have seen are. These things that seem to be the foundation of a whole lot of evil in the books?

I have a feeling that only certain people are susceptible for some reason. I hope to see more reasons for this in the next book.

[Vissy]

We don't know much at all about Aesudan, do we though? From what I remember, we only got one Interlude where we heard that a female ardent disapproved of her actions and protested (much in the spirit of Martin Luther, funnily enough) by putting up the complaints and the such.

[+Wax]

Another thing though, I thought Dalinar had a particular person/servant watch over in Kohlinar.

Yet, he didn't know much about the queen's excesses until he remarked upon strange stories of rioting from Kohlinar (towards the end of WoR).

 

[Calderis]

45 minutes ago, axcellence said:

Another thing though, I thought Dalinar had a particular person/servant watch over in Kohlinar.

Yet, he didn't know much about the queen's excesses until he remarked upon strange stories of rioting from Kohlinar (towards the end of WoR).

 

That was Bordin. The same person who transported Taln to the Shattered Plains. 

Which implies that her behavior rapidly declined after Bordin left... 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That was Bordin. The same person who transported Taln to the Shattered Plains. 

Which implies that her behavior rapidly declined after Bordin left... 

Which could reflect Shallan's father's rapid decline as well. Yay for drawing connections where there aren't any!