Aesudan Kholin, Theories and Speculations

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

@Calderis, Honorblades were the blades of the Heralds and given how big the Heralds are in Vorin ideology, it's likely that people have heard of them even if its just as objects of legends and myths. Of course, either way, most people would have no idea what they looked like and wouldn't differentiate between one and Shardblade if they see it, also the powers they grant the wielder isn't common knowledge either.

Also, you have to remember that we don't really know anything about Liss's background, where she is from, who she really is as a person, how she acquired her Shardblade, her beliefs, the extant of her knowledge about Surgebinding, the Radiants, the Heralds and such, none of this is known to us. So it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she might be informed about them. We just have no way of knowing that for now.

[Weltall]

One possible explanation for why Liss might take the blade: She's a Herald. She would know what an Honorblade is and might be inclined to grab one, if only to get access to Stormlight healing again. I thought it might be possible to speculate on which Herald she could be until I realized that Taln's blade shares no Surges with those possessed by the female Heralds, so whichever of them picked it up they'd be getting powers they'd never had access to before. Though based on the idea that the Herald's personal insanities are related in some way to their former nature, Chana might be the most likely. Anyhow, one more possible wrinkle given how many other Heralds seem to have been hanging out in Kholinar at the time.

As for why Jasnah was considering having Aesudan whacked and then changed her mind, it might be less that she was uncertain about Aesudan and more uncertain if this was a good time. Wait and see how the treaty affects things, maybe even wait and see if the woman improves some rather than moving immediately. There's probably something Jasnah knows that we don't informing her decision but it's at least possible she was just questioning the timing of assassinating her sister in law and then when Gavilar died she had other things to occupy her time and didn't think killing the then-queen would be in her family's best interests just then.

Really a better question is: What happened in the past couple of months that made Aesudan change so rapidly? Because Navani obviously thought the capital was going to be in decent enough hands enough to leave and it's hard to imagine she'd fail to see the disaster looming if Aesudan was acting that way before she left. Unmade, involvment with a secret society (you can't swing a dead chull around on Roshar without flattening half a dozen members of one), deliberately poor advice from someone who wanted things to deteriorate and cultivated her paranoia about the Almighty's opinion of her...

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My main question on the blade is was it switched before or after Taln was put into Bordin's care. Because if it was after, Bordin is involved. There's no other explanation for him not recognizing the difference between the blade in the WoK epilogue, and the blade in WoR. 

I forgot to address this. Yeah this an important question, I don't think there's any hints in the book itself indicating either way. Do we have any WoB that might shed some light on this?

I'll say this though, I don't see why Bordin would swap the Blades or be involved in the process in anyway, from what we've seen of him so far he's incredibly loyal to Dalinar, so why would he do that. Of course Brandon can totally pull the rug from under us and reveal that guy has been secretly working with the Ghostbloods or some other nefarious entity this entire time or something, but from what we know so far, he's not a very likely candidate. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

@Weltall I don't know how Liss could be a Herald. I mean I know some of them have been seen in Kholinar but why would a Herald start working as an Assassin for hire? specially since Liss seemed to have been doing this for a while, considering what a reputation the 'Weeper' has.

Also Liss doesn't seem insane to me while the other Heralds all are in some way or other. And if she was one, she would already have an Honorblade why take Taln's as well? So nobody else would get their hands on it? Besides were did she find a normal Shardblade to swap for the Honorblade?

As for the Aesudan thing;

25 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Really a better question is: What happened in the past couple of months that made Aesudan change so rapidly? Because Navani obviously thought the capital was going to be in decent enough hands enough to leave and it's hard to imagine she'd fail to see the disaster looming if Aesudan was acting that way before she left. Unmade, involvment with a secret society (you can't swing a dead chull around on Roshar without flattening half a dozen members of one), deliberately poor advice from someone who wanted things to deteriorate and cultivated her paranoia about the Almighty's opinion of her...

That is a good point that I hadn't given much thought to. So does that mean that she had been reasonable and competent before? There was nothing to suggest a sudden change in behavior in the Lhan's interlude chapter though.     

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Calderis]

I agree he's portrayed as extremely loyal. And he also barely seen or spoken of. So we have Dalinar's opinion of him. 

I'm not on board with the Liss as a Herald idea, but again, there's really nothing against it. The only Herald that has their blade is Nale, all the other's are either in Shinovar, or the one Szeth used, so that would give motive.

A Herald taking it actually makes the most sense for that reason, Liss being that Herald... Maybe.

Edit: as for Navani, by the sounds of things she wasn't in Kholinar long, and was larger excluded. She may be basing her Judgment off the woman she knew before war started and the Aesudan's descent may have been a much slower burn. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Calderis

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I agree he's portrayed as extremely loyal. And he also barely seen or spoken of. So we have Dalinar's opinion of him. 

I'm not on board with the Liss as a Herald idea, but again, there's really nothing against it. The only Herald that has their blade is Nale, all the other's are either in Shinovar, or the one Szeth used, so that would give motive.

A Herald taking it actually makes the most sense for that reason, Liss being that Herald... Maybe.

Edit: as for Navani, by the sounds of things she wasn't in Kholinar long, and was larger excluded. She may be basing her Judgment off the woman she knew before war started and the Aesudan's descent may have been a much slower burn. 

Agreed on all accounts.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

One possible explanation for why Liss might take the blade: She's a Herald. She would know what an Honorblade is and might be inclined to grab one, if only to get access to Stormlight healing again. I thought it might be possible to speculate on which Herald she could be until I realized that Taln's blade shares no Surges with those possessed by the female Heralds, so whichever of them picked it up they'd be getting powers they'd never had access to before. Though based on the idea that the Herald's personal insanities are related in some way to their former nature, Chana might be the most likely.

It'd still be the slow Stormlight healing like Szeth has, not like Kaladin's since Taln's Blade doesn't have Regrowth. Very minor nitpick, but I'm in a debative mood for some reason.

Also, from one of Brandon's AMA's, the "Heralds have swapped Blades before(but it was very uncommon)" so it's entirely possible for it to power(s) she was familiar with. 

2 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

@Weltall I don't know how Liss could be a Herald. I mean I know some of them have been seen in Kholinar but why would a Herald start working as an Assassin for hire? specially since Liss seemed to have been doing this for a while, considering what a reputation the 'Weeper' has.

Also Liss doesn't seem insane to me while the other Heralds all are in some way or other. And if she was one, she would already have an Honorblade why take Taln's as well? So nobody else would get their hands on it? Besides were did she find a normal Shardblade to swap for the Honorblade?  

Well, to kill two birds with one stone, she combats her insanity by focusing on combat. The whole "keep your mind off of it" schtick. Or better yet, following Weltall's "Chana" idea, her insanity is a twisting of the "brave, obedient" divine attributes where she follows orders/the contract(obedient) without regard for who, where or how(brave, in a sense)

As Calderis pointed out, Nalan is the only one who took his blade back from the Shin. 

Asking where Liss got a Shardblade is like asking where Graves got his Plate&Blade, where whomever got the blade they gave Helaran, where.. The secret societies all have ways of acquiring things, and if Liss is a Herald, she's got all the time in the world to acquire one of her own. ... So I reread, you mean where she got the one she used for the switch. Could she not have used the one she already had? After all, an Honorblade would be an upgrade over her old blade.

[Djarskublar]

This conversation has me wondering more about Liss, for sure. As has been stated, there are a lot of secret societies on Roshar. Maybe she belongs to one we haven't seen named yet. On that note, has anyone asked Brandon how many of the darn things there are running around?

I would bet, at a guess, that if she is affiliated with a group like that, it would be an assassin's guild type thing. One with the highest ranking assassins getting to use the guild's Blade(s). I don't think a random assassin could easily get away with having a Blade, let alone acquire one.

[Calderis]

So I just had an epiphany about Liss and am going to make a new thread so as not to derail this thread further. I welcome everyone to head over there with this, and get back to Aesudan here. 

[The One Who Connects]

And if Calderis's epiphany thread does not follow the "Liss the Herald" idea, I'll make that a separate thread to help this one get back to Aesudan's motivations alone.

(Might do it anyway, as a specific Liss is Chana topic)

[Weltall]

Oh storms, what madness have I wrought?

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard @The One Who Connects I've responded to your replies to me in that other topic to not further derail this one.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Weltall

[dvoraen]

I've been meaning to post a topic about Aesudan for a while, but I haven't been able to really come up with anything aside from a VERY wild piece of speculation/theorizing, that being:

Is Queen Aesudan the daughter of Restares?

There have been two major points that have led me in this direction:

1) The fact that Aesudan is clearly of high standing in Alethi/lighteyed society, and that she thinks VERY highly of herself and "proper" behavior (ref. her reaction to drunken Dalinar in WoR's prologue).

2) Jasnah and the ardent Pai both consider her a threat, in their own ways.  For Jasnah, she found and recruited a notorious assassin to be a spy and sleeper on this woman.  For Pai, she considers the queen of Alethkar unsuitable for her position, self-indulgent, and more (which apparently has to do with Odium's influence, which probably means one of the Unmade working on her over time*).

And yet, she was the one that was allowed to marry Elhokar.  I say "allowed" because I get the feeling that convincing Gavilar (and especially Navani) was at best an uphill climb... if it wasn't an arranged marriage.  Her standing in society (to say nothing of the dowry) was the prime factor, but it doesn't strike me as unheard of for a marriage to serve as an agreement between two parties for something completely different.  If anything, a "proper Vorin marriage" would only legitimize the Sons of Honor more in the eyes of the Alethi, indirectly.

 

* Any takers on it being the same one that was corrupting Lin Davar?

[maxal]

40 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

"allowed" because I get the feeling that convincing Gavilar (and especially Navani) was at best an uphill climb... if it wasn't an arranged marriage.  Her standing in society (to say nothing of the dowry) was the prime factor, but it doesn't strike me as unheard of for a marriage to serve as an agreement between two parties for something completely different.  If anything, a "proper Vorin marriage" would only legitimize the Sons of Honor more in the eyes of the Alethi, indirectly.

I would think it highly unlikely Navani wouldn't have approved of Aseduan. I am personally convinced it was an arranged marriage as nearly all lighteyed of rank marry for political alliances. Hence, it seems highly probably Aseduan came with strong political ties while being considered smart enough for Elhokar, unless Navani had no words to say on the matter which might have been a possibility.

[dvoraen]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I would think it highly unlikely Navani wouldn't have approved of Aseduan. I am personally convinced it was an arranged marriage as nearly all lighteyed of rank marry for political alliances. Hence, it seems highly probably Aseduan came with strong political ties while being considered smart enough for Elhokar, unless Navani had no words to say on the matter which might have been a possibility.

I did say it was wild speculation, didn't I?   But yes, I too think it was an arranged marriage; I just wish we knew more about Restares in general, since he seems to be heavily in the Vorin-Alethi pot.

[Calderis]

@dvoraen I really like this idea. In the political situation of a new kingdom the marriage of an heir is almost always used to either create a new alliance or strengthen an existing one. 

When Gavilar was killed by Szeth he said "Thaidakar" was too late. He then Reached for Restares or Sadeas. So Thaidakar was the person he expected to make a move. Restares and Sadeas were the ones who had the most to gain by his death who he thought were firmly on his side. We know all about Sadeas, but Restares...

So by this assumption, Gavilar sealed Restares' loyalty by placing his bloodline on the throne via Aesudan. It would definitely give motivation for Jasnah to be wary, and be concerned about her father being aware of her actions, because no matter how much she thought she'd be protecting her family, Gavilar would view it as threatening one of his Alliances. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Awesome theory dvoraen (upvote)! It got me thinking:

Since Restares is the leader of the Sons of Honor, he would be a pretty religious dude, since the SoH basically are fanatics. If Aesudan is the type of person that always has been easily affected, it is no stretch to assume that a fanatical father made her worry about displeasing the Almighty ,which might be why she wants all those ardents around to tell her how good she is.

It might even be that Restares has tasked his daughter with doing certain things, and threatened her with the wrath of the Almighty to make her do them more quickly.

We also dont really know how much info Jasnah had a bout the societies before Gavilars party (she had not been to Shadesmar before then anyway). But she doesnt like Amaram for some reason, so she might have known about him, Restares and the Sons of Honor, and thus, guessed that Aesudan was the puppet of Restares, which is why she wants her removed.

Aesudan being easily affected also explains how an Unmade could manipulate her (I dont think it was Odium directly, an Unmade seems more likely).

[Kingsdaughter613]

I've actually been wondering for a bit if Asuedan could be psychotic. The mentally ill are more open to a Shard's influence. Obsession with religion is a fairly common delusion. And it is very easy to take advantage of someone who is psychotic. The way it is indicated that her favor could quickly vanish also inclines me in that direction. Paranoia and swift mood shifts can also be signs of psychosis. But if her delusions are focused on religion, and she isn't hallucinating, then it is very likely that most people won't realize how badly compromised she is.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I've actually been wondering for a bit if Asuedan could be psychotic. The mentally ill are more open to a Shard's influence. Obsession with religion is a fairly common delusion. And it is very easy to take advantage of someone who is psychotic. The way it is indicated that her favor could quickly vanish also inclines me in that direction. Paranoia and swift mood shifts can also be signs of psychosis. But if her delusions are focused on religion, and she isn't hallucinating, then it is very likely that most people won't realize how badly compromised she is.

I'm with you on this. Reading the Lhan interlude chapter the first impression I got about Aesudan was that, at the very least, she's got to be mentally unstable. It just fits with her behavior, like some of the things she does are just too odd - the religious obsession, letting food that's meant for the soldiers in the Shattered Plains just rot away, etc.- for her to be mentally stable.

[Amanuensis]

I don't have much to add regarding Aesudan being involved with one of Roshar's secret societies, but I have a couple thoughts regarding her paranoia with the Almighty that I want to mention. I won't bother quoting the exact text and relevant WoB since they've both been put in this thread already, but specifically I'm going to be referring to the implications of Aesudan's paranoia and Deana's question about Odium influencing her.

So, paranoia. Who else do we know is having trouble with paranoia? Elhokar, Aesudan's husband. Is it possible that whatever is tormenting him is also tormenting his wife? If so, why them? The immediate assumption is to destabilize Alethkar. The King and Queen are currently separated (and thus more vulnerable if we assume their marriage was one born of love rather than political maneuverings), and they are in positions where they're capable of doing a lot of damage. Considering Alethkar is where things are taking place to begin with and where most of the primary characters are from / centralized in, I expect that means it's because the Alethi are the most significant threat to Odium. If Odium, or more likely one of his Unmade, are explicitly targeting Alethkar's leaders, this makes quite a bit of sense. That being said, I don't think Odium/the Unmade have much to do why Jasnah was preparing to assassinate her, as at the time of Gavilar's death, she doesn't seem as Cosmere aware as she is in the present timeline. Also, before someone brings up the fact that Elhokar's description of what he sees in the mirrors is similar to the true form of Cryptics, I'm somewhat skeptical that he's being watched by them, let alone considered for bonding. Nothing about Elhokar's personality really implies Lightweaver, in my mind, and I don't get the impression that Elhokar is hiding a lot of "tasty" lies for them to go feast on. I'm not dismissing that possibility, but now that I think about Aesudan's problems and her relationship with Elhokar, I think there's a chance the two might be related. Plus it wouldn't be the first time Brandon's dropped red herrings on us, and I wouldn't put it past the Unmade to bear similarities to Spren, let alone disguise themselves as specific ones.

I have another theory on what's going on with Aesudan, though. Not one that I think has a lot of evidence, or is even very likely, but is an interesting thought. It involves something we learned in / after the release of Arcanum Unbounded via WoB, so I'll put it in spoilers.

Spoiler

So, Bavadin, AKA Autonomy. We know she's a hypocrite (doesn't let anyone interfere with Taldain, but likes to meddle in other people's affairs). We also know her MMO involves impersonating other gods and twisting their religions. The most obvious case is the business with Trell. We've seen there's a significant shift in the religion between Era 1 Trelagism and Era 2 Trellism. On Nalthis, we've seen a similar change with Austrism. IIRC, approximately 300 years before the events of Warbreaker, we know that Idrians first developed their prejudices towards the Returned. On Sel, we know that Jaddeth was originally a god of stone, and eventually he became the god of Shu-Dereth and suddenly had a prophet (Wyrn) preaching that Elantrians are evil and that Fjordell has to conquer the world. On Roshar, we know that the Radiants were once heroes of the people, the Recreance happened, and in the modern days Radiants are looked back on as traitors. Even with the War of Loss / Hierocracy, there is another significant change in religion. Do I think that Autonomy is responsible for all of these things? Probably not. But it's an interesting trend, religions making conflict between those with magic and those without, and if Autonomy is going around impersonating gods to manipulate people on other planets (Trell/Miles, Jaddeth/Wyrn), could she be doing the same thing with Aesudan? Maybe Aesudan believes the Almighty is unhappy with her because the "Almighty" is speaking to her, and the reason things are going so wrong in Kholinar is because she's being set up to fail. This also makes some sense if you're one of those people who believe there's some kind of alliance between Odium and Autonomy.

Just some thoughts I figured worth mentioning. Can't say I necessarily believe either, but I can see either being set up and both have a lot of potential for an interesting plotline, in my honest opinion.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Amanuensis

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

Ok this thread has died down,  largely my fault as I've not been active here for well over a week. Anyway to get things back on track and hopefully rejuvenate the conversation I'm gonna put down a small summary of all that's been said and the theories that have been put forth so far in this thread regarding Aesudan Kholin, this way people can jump into the discussion without having to read every single post up to this point. Here we go:

Aesudan's attitude and state of mind:

• Political incompetence
• Too Self-involved
• Excessive lifestyle
• Out of touch with the common people and the struggles of the country
• Paranoia (she's convinced the Almighty is displeased with her)
• Appears to be mentally unstable

 

Possible explanations, causes and theories:

• Under influence of a malevolent entity (Odium, the Unmade, etc.) - the same entity might also be causing paranoia in Elhokar.
• Putting up a front and this whole thing being an act (not very likely)   
• She’s a political spy/puppet
• Daughter of Restares, or some other connection to Sons of Honor
• Connection to the Ghostbloods
• Connection to the Diagram
• Connection to some other secret (possibly nefarious) group or society.
• Spoiler

   Autonomy could be manipulating her by impersonating the Almighty (Honor) - not very likely

• A combination of some of the above 

 

Jasnah’s possible reasons/motives for wanting her assassinated

• Aesudan’s political incompetence could potentially weaken the family’s rule and position and therefore she is a serious threat.
• Jasnah Knows of or suspects Aesudan’s involvement with one of the above mentioned groups          
•  Knows of or suspects the influence of the Unmade/Odium/some other entity on Aesudan (not very likely)
•  Believes the woman to have some other secret agenda

 

Some additional thoughts/questions:

• Has Aesudan always been like this or is her odd behavior and paranoia recent developments?
• If so, when did it start? Before or after Gavilar’s death?
• And was it a slow and gradual process?
• What was she like before this, if that’s the case?
• Bordin was spying on her, likely on Dalinar’s orders, why?
• What does Dalinar know about this situation? Has Jasnah filled him in on what she knows?
• The Ghostbloods were aware of Bordin spying on her, Is there any significance to this?
• Aside from Mr T, who else benefits from the chaos in Alethkar as a result of her actions? Odium, perhaps? Who else?
• In addition to whatever mystical/magical influence she is probably under, is she also being manipulated/controlled by a normal human (eg. An advisor, one of the ardents, family member…) to further that person's political gain? Restares could be one such candidate, who else?
• Is she a victim in all this, a mere tool for others? Or does she herself have some agency in this matter and is actively participating in whatever secret plan is being carried out?

Did I miss anything?

Edited April 22, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Calderis]

I think that her... Descent has been over the course of the war. Whatever is influencing her, be it a human agent, or an unmade, I think that she's a tool that is unaware of the damage she is causing. Someone trying to cause the problems she is would be aware of the potential backlash from the populace, and wouldn't worry about what God thought of them. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that her... Descent has been over the course of the war. Whatever is influencing her, be it a human agent, or an unmade, I think that she's a tool that is unaware of the damage she is causing. Someone trying to cause the problems she is would be aware of the potential backlash from the populace, and wouldn't worry about what God thought of them. 

Yeah I lean towards her being a tool too, it just makes more sense with what we know of her and her attitude and actions so far. I still strongly believe that she is at least in part being influenced/manipulated by a supernatural entity of some kind, it explains her behavior much better. I mean for her to be manipulated to this degree without realizing it solely by a mere human she has to be simply a clueless idiot but if the unmade/Odium/etc are behind it then her erratic behavior and clouded judgement is much easier explained.

As for her descent, I agree that it had to be relatively recent, and probably gradual in pace. Otherwise, as has already been mentioned, why would Navani leave her in charge of Alethkar to come to the Shattered plain if she didn't trust Aesudan to be capable of the job? Navani is not stupid, she'd have realized immediately that Aesudan was unfit for the rule if she was behaving as she would be later while Navani was in Kholinar, so at the time Aesudan had to be behaving at least somewhat reasonably.

The question is, what was Aesudan like before her descent into paranoia and erratic behavior began? Was she a smart and competent person before all this? Because I can't imagine Elhokar marrying her if she had behaved even remotely as she does now, at the time. He was the heir to the throne of Alethkar for god's sake and she would be the future queen, you don't let just anybody into this position. Even if she and Elhokar were in love, I can't see Navani and Gavilar permitting their union if they weren't satisfied that Aesudan was savvy and competent enough for the job.  

Now this doesn't mean that she couldn't have being suffering from some sort of paranoia even then which the manipulator entity later decided to take advantage of, but she had to be at least somewhat smart and politically savvy before Gavilar's death. If this is true, then Jasnah's decision to have her assassinated couldn't have been due to Aesudan's incompetence but something else entirely.    

I realize this is all conjecture, we've so little information to go off on.

You say she must be unaware of the damage she's causing, but I wonder if she's at least aware that she's being manipulated/influenced/controlled? Is there a part of her fighting against this influence or is she so thoroughly under the entity/entities control that she has no idea what she is doing? once again we know so little that it's hard to guess, we've yet to actually 'meet' her, and don't really know what she's like as a person. Once she finally appears 'on screen' and we get to directly see her actions and behavior it'll be much easier to judge these things and to speculate about her state of mind a little more firmly.

Do you think there could be any legitimacy to her fear of the Almighty's displeasure with her? Of course Honor is dead but she could be easily mistaking some other being with the Almighty. Does he believe he's speaking with he, how does she know he's displeased with her?

 

 

 

 

    

[Calderis]

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard I think that her descent has been gradual as I said, though it may have accelerated recently. I think if Navani hadn't been excluded from events when she was in Kholinar, she may have suspected something was wrong, but if things were near the point we see with Lhan and Pai she'd have at least heard something. 

Elhokar is a spoiled child who appears to have been a blind spot for Gavilar. That or he was so wrapped up in his role as conquerer and King that he left Elhokar to others. Navani, while she doesn't blame anyone for it, recognizes the flaws in her son. 

While I find it hard to credit that they'd have allowed him to marry someone so erratic, it does lend itself towards there being an actual emotional connection there, because unfortunately Elhokar is the same way. Erratic, narcissistic, paranoid, easily swayed, full of self doubt, requiring constant validation... They're perfectly matched.

Dalinar being Dalinar he may have recognized all this better than Navani, because he too has a blind spot for Elhokar, but it makes him overly protective. Leaving Boring behind was most likely his version of Jasnah's deal with Liss, just with less fatal consequences. 

As far as who is manipulating her, I can see a supernatural entity being involved, but I find it no less likely that someone she trusts is whispering into her ear and her thoughts on the Almighty come from a person, especially if we're right about Restares. The Sons of Honor want to restore the Vorin church. What better way than to make the Monarchs believe that they need to perform some grand gesture to appease the Almighty. Coming from a father to a daugher, that's some heartless and easily accomplished manipulation. 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calderis

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As far as who is manipulating her, I can see a supernatural entity being involved, but I find it no less likely that someone she trusts is whispering into her ear and her thoughts on the Almighty come from a person, especially if we're right about Restares. The Sons of Honor want to restore the Vorin church. What better way than to make the Monarchs believe that they need to perform some grand gesture to appease the Almighty. 

The Sons of Honor/Restares theory seems viable the more I think about it. But does the current riots and chaos in Kholinar benefit them? Yes they want to restore the Vorin church but how do they intend to do that? With a coup? or by way of more subtle political maneuverings?  

Also if Aesudan is really Restares's daughter or has some other connection to the Sons of Honor, then wouldn't she have more of an active role in their plans and machinations?  

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

The Sons of Honor/Restares theory seems viable the more I think about it. But does the current riots and chaos in Kholinar benefit them? Yes they want to restore the Vorin church but how do they intend to do that? With a coup? or by way of more subtle political maneuverings?  

Also if Aesudan is really Restares's daughter or has some other connection to the Sons of Honor, then wouldn't she have more of an active role in their plans and machinations?  

I doubt they were expecting someone like Pai coming along and kickstarting the riots. I think they are an unintended consequence of actions meant to let the church step in and stabilize things after some political and social maneuvering on the part of the Sons of Honor. 

As far as Aesudan's involvement with them, that depends on two things. Aesudan herself and Restares views of the gender roles in Vorinism. Aesudan because her intellect and ability at politics and subterfuge would be a major deciding factor of her involvement. Restares... There is a distinct gender separation in Vorinism, and depending on how Restares sees that separation he may have viewed it as against his (questionable) morals to bring a woman into his plans, they are called the Sons of Honor after all. It could also be as simple as him seeing her as an easy tool to manipulate after she developed a relationship with Elhokar. No matter the reason, I don't think that if she is his daughter, that that automatically means she's in on the plan.

For an in world example, look at Shallan's situation with her father. He definitely had a "traditional" view of gender roles. If it weren't for him needing to use her as a clerk, she'd have had no inkling of what he was doing with their house.