Aesudan Kholin, Theories and Speculations

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

I've searched through the forum and haven't found any threads specifically discussing this, which is a little surprising. If such a thread exists and I missed it, I apologize. Now on to the topic.

What's the deal with Aesudan Kholin, Elhokar's wife? 

In the WOR prologue, we learn that Jasnah was contemplating having Aesudan assassinated by Liss before changing her mind and having her merely spy on the queen for the time being. But why? what's so special about Aesudan? Who is she? What sort of threat does Jasnah believe her to pose to her family that she is willing to go as far as have her assassinated?

Sure Aesudan, as shown in Lhan's interlude chapter in WOR, is definitely not a really good person nor a good ruler, throwing lavish parties and being excessive, wasteful and out of touch with and uncaring of the common people. All of this make her a terrible person but it's not enough to justify Jasnah's actions against her. Like Jasnah had to have been convinced that Aesudan was serious bad news for her family to even contemplate going as far as an assassination attempt. Not to mention Jasnah had this planned while Gavilar was still alive, so Aesudan wasn;t even queen then.

There's also the fact that Bordin, said to be one of Dalinar's most trusted servants, had been left behind in Alethkar to spy on Aesudan, or at least this is what Mraize claims. If that's true then does that mean Dalinar shares at least some of Jasnah's suspicions regarding the queen? I highly doubt he knows about Liss and Jasnah's almost assassination attempt against Aesudan since I'm sure he wouldn't have approved of it. But both Dalinar and Jasnah must now something about Aesudan that warrants having people spy on her.

And how do the Ghostbloods know about, for that matter how much do they know? Is Aesudan somehow connected to them? Or maybe she's associated with the Diagram or some other secret organization since Roshar seems to be crawling with them. I think it's pretty obvious that there's more to her but what?

There's something else mentioned in the Lhan interlued that might also be relevant somehow:

Quote

"Here's the thing," Lhan said. "The queen...she sometimes worries that maybe the Almighty isn't pleased with her"

  Why is that? What has she done or things she's done that led her to believe the Almight might be displeased with her?

I don't have any concrete theories about this yet myself, gotta do a little more investigation, dig a little deeper, look for more hints and foreshadowings and things like that if there are any in the relevant chapters before forming one. But I figured I start this discussion here to see what you guys think and if any of you have any theories/ speculations of your own or know of any WOBs regarding this because this is something that has been on my mind since I finished WOR.

[Calderis]

As far as Aesudan's view of her relationship with the Almighty, I have no clue. But as for why Jasnah would consider assassination...

Jasnah is a scholar who focuses on history. When Dalinar goes off on the tenuous nature of the reign of the first heir of a new kingdom I have a very strong opinion that he learned that tidbit from Jasnah. Dalinar himself is not a scholar, and the people in his life who are accomplished in that field are Jasnah and Navani. Prior to Wok Navani was not a source of knowledge for him, but we know how fond he is of Jasnah. 

So assuming that Jasnah is aware of the information shared by Dalinar,she knows that once Gavilar dies and Elhokar inherits, that the likelihood of the kingdom falling apart is at it's highest. She is also aware that Elhokar is married to a selfish, foolish, obliviously self serving narcissist.

She may have never considered a situation in Which Aesudan's was left to rule Kholinar alone, but she definitely would have seen the way the woman's actions would effect the perception the common people had of the ruling family and how that could have easily been used against them politically.

Combine this with the view of morality we know she holds from the alley scene and I truly believe she was just interested in protecting the kingdom her father had worked so hard to build.

If Aesudan were up to anything else, I don't think she would have called Liss off. 

[maxal]

Don't we have a WoB which indicates, or at least heavily implies, Aseduan might have been "compromised" by Odium?

[skaa]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Don't we have a WoB which indicates, or at least heavily implies, Aseduan might have been "compromised" by Odium?

Yeah, here it is:

 

Quote

 

DEANA

Elkonar’s queen, is she being influenced by Odium? Because for her to be that stupid and for Navani to go off away and say “Eh, the queen got it” seems weird.

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are, um, thinking along proper lines.

(Source.)

 

 

And here's another WoB relevant to the OP:

 

Quote

 

QUESTION

Why did Jasnah try to have Elhokar’s wife assassinated?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, you’ll need to get to know Elhokar’s wife a little better before you’ll get an answer to that. But understand that Jasnah is very deliberate in her choices, and protecting her family is one of her most important personal mandates.

(Source.)

 

 

 

[maxal]

Thanks, that's the one I remembered.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Its been a bit since I fully re-read SA, so my mind is a bit fuzzy for details. Do we know where Aesudan is from and why she was married to Elhokar so early? I seem to remember that Elhokar married her when he was very young, but no reason for it. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

Don't we have a WoB which indicates, or at least heavily implies, Aseduan might have been "compromised" by Odium?

Ooh this is interesting. And it actually makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, her being influenced can potentially explain at least some of her behavior. Though it still doesn't fully explain Jasnah's actions since she wouldn't have any way of knowing about Odium's influence on Aesudan. But I still like this theory a lot.

 

9 hours ago, skaa said:

And here's another WoB relevant to the OP:

 

Quote

 

QUESTION

Why did Jasnah try to have Elhokar’s wife assassinated?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, you’ll need to get to know Elhokar’s wife a little better before you’ll get an answer to that. But understand that Jasnah is very deliberate in her choices, and protecting her family is one of her most important personal mandates.

(Source.)

 

 

Ok I get this, she's deliberate and highly protective of her family. I have no got that she would go as far as necessary to protect her family and Jasnah doesn't seem the type to worrytoo much over the ethical implication of things, instead relying on critical thinking and logic. And it doesn't surprise at all me that she's capable of having people assassinated if need be. BUT for her to have Aesudan assassinated, she would need to have a damnation good reason. Even if she didn't like the woman - which I'm sure she didn't - Aesudan is still her sister in-law and more importantly wife to the heir to the future king of Alethkar, killing her would be treason. And even though I'm certain both Jasnah and Liss now how to cover their tracks perfectly, it's still a huge risk on Jasnah's part, which brings me back to the main question:  

what kinda threat did she perceive Aesudan to pose against her family to warrant even considering such extreme actions?

In my opinion, this has to be about more than Jasnah's worry and contempt over the woman's incompetence, narcissism, selfishness and the it's potential negative impact on the family's political image, power and rule over the country. Don't get me wrong, this is definitely a serious and legitimate concern but one that warrants assassination? I don't think so.  

Also what made Jasnah change her mind and have Liss just watch Aesudan for the time being? Perhaps, she needed more information, or some sort of confirmation of whatever information she already had on Elhokar's wife. I think it's possible that Jasnah's initial dislike of Aesudan because of the woman's above-mentioned traits, had led her to look more into Aesudan and her background and whatever information she dug up had to be troubling enough for her to decide on assassination as a means of dealing with it.

Hmmm...questions...questions and so few hints let alone answers. I'm pretty sure we'll learn more about this in Oathbringer what with Jasnah back on Roshar and almost certaintly reuniting with her family and Shallan as well as Kaladin going to Kholinar right after Hearthstone, which means he probably meets and interacts Aesudan herself and maybe even Liss. Lots of information/revelations can come out of these.

November can't come soon enough    

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

57 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Its been a bit since I fully re-read SA, so my mind is a bit fuzzy for details. Do we know where Aesudan is from and why she was married to Elhokar so early? I seem to remember that Elhokar married her when he was very young, but no reason for it. 

No I'm pretty sure her origins and background haven't yet been revealed. For some reason I think it's likely that she may not be from Alethkar, but I don't know why.

She and Elhokar married sometime before Gavilar's assassination though I don't think it's been revealed exactly when.

There certainly seem to be more than a few odd tidbits surrounding her, aren't there? 

[Calderis]

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard I'll agree to disagree on Jasnah's motivation. 

Whatever is going on with Aesudan and Odium, beyond it changing Aesudan's behavior (much as we've been told happened with Shallan's father)  it would have no bearing on Jasnah's actions. 

Jasnah could dislike Aesudan and not considerer assassination. Jasnah is logically motivated enough that I doubt her personal opinion of the woman matters at all. 

The moment that that woman becomes a threat to the Kholin family though... She could think Aesudan was a phenomenal human being, and kill her for being a threat to her family.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard I'll agree to disagree on Jasnah's motivation. 

Whatever is going on with Aesudan and Odium, beyond it changing Aesudan's behavior (much as we've been told happened with Shallan's father)  it would have no bearing on Jasnah's actions. 

Jasnah could dislike Aesudan and not considerer assassination. Jasnah is logically motivated enough that I doubt her personal opinion of the woman matters at all. 

The moment that that woman becomes a threat to the Kholin family though... She could think Aesudan was a phenomenal human being, and kill her for being a threat to her family.

I agree that Odium's influence on Aesudan would have no bearing on Jasnah's actions. I'm with you on that. 

But when and why did she become a threat to the Kholin family? The things that we'e heard and seen of Aesudan so far aren't enough imo to make her a legitimate threat. Yes her actions led to the riots in Kholinar towards the end of WOR but Jasnah would have no way of anticipating that so there must be more to this, something Jasnah knows that we don't about Aesudan. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[What's a Seawolf?]

When I first read the Interlude (?) that showed the decrepit state of Alehtkar, or at least the small piece that we saw, my mind immediately flashed back to *Mistborn Spoilers* 

Spoiler

Ruin's influence in Hero of Ages

and some of the happenings there.

Not saying the same thing is happening with Odium, but I don't think it's a stretch to say some outside influence is taking place.  I could see it being one of the Unmade we don't know anything about yet.

I would love for her to actually be a part of either Mr. T's group or the Ghostbloods though.  Would make for some great interactions and provide a nice segue for more main characters to meet those groups.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

11 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

When I first read the Interlude (?) that showed the decrepit state of Alehtkar, or at least the small piece that we saw, my mind immediately flashed back to *Mistborn Spoilers* 

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin's influence in Hero of Ages

and some of the happenings there.

Not saying the same thing is happening with Odium, but I don't think it's a stretch to say some outside influence is taking place.  I could see it being one of the Unmade we don't know anything about yet.

I would love for her to actually be a part of either Mr. T's group or the Ghostbloods though.  Would make for some great interactions and provide a nice segue for more main characters to meet those groups.

Great observation with the Mistborn comparison, there's definitely some parallels.

I personally believe it's really likely for Aesudan to be part of a secret group - my money's on the Diagram - that would make things even more interesting.

[Calderis]

51 minutes ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

I agree that Odium's influence on Aesudan would have no bearing on Jasnah's actions. I'm with you on that. 

But when and why did she become a threat to the Kholin family? The things that we'e heard and seen of Aesudan so far aren't enough imo to make her a legitimate threat. Yes her actions led to the riots in Kholinar towards the end of WOR but Jasnah would have no way of anticipating that so there must be more to this, something Jasnah knows that we don't about Aesudan. 

I point back to my first post. Although Jasnah may not have foreseen outright riots because Aesudan was left to rule alone, she saw the way the public would perceive her and how that could be used against Elhokar.

Imagine the assassination of Gavilar never happened and the storyline of the books didn't happen. If the Elhokar inherited normally, and the woman capable of sparking the riots in Kholinar were queen, how could that possibly not be used against him? There would be no war to hold the princedoms together. No gem hearts to let them languish and enjoy Elhokar's weak rule. They would have turned to scheming against him almost immediately. A politically insensitive queen who is capable of turning the people against the king is a glaring risk in the first heirs reign. 

 

And due to mobile I can't remove this from the bottom of my post. Bah. 

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard

Edited April 5, 2017 by Calderis

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I point back to my first post. Although Jasnah may not have foreseen outright riots because Aesudan was left to rule alone, she saw the way the public would perceive her and how that could be used against Elhokar.

Imagine the assassination of Gavilar never happened and the storyline of the books didn't happen. If the Elhokar inherited normally, and the woman capable of sparking the riots in Kholinar were queen, how could that possibly not be used against him? There would be no war to hold the princedoms together. No gem hearts to let them languish and enjoy Elhokar's weak rule. They would have turned to scheming against him almost immediately. A politically insensitive queen who is capable of turning the people against the king is a glaring risk in the first heirs reign. 

 

And due to mobile I can't remove this from the bottom of my post. Bah. 

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard

I apologize for the late reply Calderis.

Yeah what you say does admittedly make a lot of sense, Jasnah could very well have been going by this reasoning in her decision to hire an assassin. However, for some reason I feel like there could be more to this, maybe it's just my expectation - solidified after reading 8 Cosmere novels -  of Brandon and his storytelling that there is always more to things and people than what it seems at first. "There's always another secret." As Kelsier would say.

To be honest I really don't have any concrete proof, or even a more substantial hint or two in support of my theory. It's mostly my expectation and hope that this is the case. 

 

[thegatorgirl00]

4 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

I personally believe it's really likely for Aesudan to be part of a secret group - my money's on the Diagram - that would make things even more interesting.

If Aesudan were working with the Diagramists, that would probably mean she is acting spoiled and selfish on purpose. Her actions would turn people against her and the leadership, creating the discontent and riots currently gappening. That way, when Mr. T comes in with his Jah Keved army, the people would welcome him with open arms due to his reputation as a kind and generous ruler. 

Storms, I like this theory. The two of them could basically just be playing good cop bad cop on the scale of countries. The main problem with this is that Mr. T never thought about or mentioned her in any of his chapters, which you would expect him to if she were such an important part of his plans. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

8 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

If Aesudan were working with the Diagramists, that would probably mean she is acting spoiled and selfish on purpose. Her actions would turn people against her and the leadership, creating the discontent and riots currently gappening. That way, when Mr. T comes in with his Jah Keved army, the people would welcome him with open arms due to his reputation as a kind and generous ruler. 

That's exactly what I'm thinking. The riots and discontent in Kholinar is exactly what Mr. T would want, though I can't actually see him taking over Alethkar, but the chaos serves his purpose anyway. Also we've yet to actually meet Aesudan 'on screen' so to speak, so we don't actually know what she's like as a person, what little we know of her are accounts and descriptions by other parties, once we do finally meet her - and I'm positive we will in Oathbringer -  it'll give us a somewhat better foundation for assessing the viability of this theory.

 

18 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Storms, I like this theory. The two of them could basically just be playing good cop bad cop on the scale of countries. The main problem with this is that Mr. T never thought about or mentioned her in any of his chapters, which you would expect him to if she were such an important part of his plans.

The fact that Mr. T never mentioned her isn't really a problem. He's only had one POV chapter so far, and there's a lot we still don't know about his plan, in terms of details and specifics. What we were shown in his interlude chapter through his actions, conversations and thoughts were only things that were relevant to what was happening and the things he was focusing on at the time. So this isn't really a hole in the theory. 

 

[Darkness]

The diagram didn't exist when Jasnah contemplated assassination, Taravangian only went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar's assassination. I'm not saying she couldn't be a diagrammist these days, but it certainly wasn't the reason for Jasnah's deliberations.

[Calderis]

So far in this thread I've only addressed Jasnah's motivation for possible assassination, but this has got me thinking about Aesudan and the little we know about her and I honestly think she is exactly what she seems.

We're told a few times throughout the books that the Shattered Plains have effectively become the true seat of Alethi power. It's where the real political games are played. Aesudan has been left behind to manage Kholinar, which she's done poorly, and is removed from any real scheming going on, as all the major players are in the war camps. 

She has an army of ardents and servants and has done nothing but make herself comfortable at the expense of all else. She very well may have been manipulated by someone in a society, but hers are not the actions of someone who is scheming. She's essentially set herself up as a target for the rage of the lower classes, and while I can easily see that being a position she may have been maneuvered into, it would be a fairly suicidal move to make intentionally.

The more I think about it, the more I think Jasnah was considering removing a liability, and Aesudan is merely shockingly incompetent. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Calderis

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

9 hours ago, Darkness said:

The diagram didn't exist when Jasnah contemplated assassination, Taravangian only went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar's assassination. I'm not saying she couldn't be a diagrammist these days, but it certainly wasn't the reason for Jasnah's deliberations.

Good point, don't why how I missed that. Aesudan could, however, still have had her own secret agenda at the time or been a part of some other secret group but not the Diagram. Hmm...

This puts us back at square one as regards Jasnah's motivations.

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

So far in this thread I've only addressed Jasnah's motivation for possible assassination, but this has got me thinking about Aesudan and the little we know about her and I honestly think she is exactly what she seems.

We're told a few times throughout the books that the Shattered Plains have effectively become the true seat of Alethi power. It's where the real political games are played. Aesudan has been left behind to manage Kholinar, which she's done poorly, and is removed from any real scheming going on, as all the major players are in the war camps. 

She has an army of ardents and servants and has done nothing but make herself comfortable at the expense of all else. She very well may have been manipulated by someone in a society, but hers are not the actions of someone who is scheming. She's essentially set herself up as a target for the rage of the lower classes, and while I can easily see that being a position she may have been maneuvered into, it would be a fairly suicidal move to make intentionally.

The more I think about it, the more I think Jasnah was considering removing a liability, and Aesudan is merely shockingly incompetent. 

  You make a convincing argument here. And honestly there's a good chance that you could end up being right about this.

 But I still think there could be more. I think the point we both can agree on is the real possibility of an outside influence on Aesudan - from Odium or something similar - that is manipulating her and directing her actions in a certain direction. Now what the wider implications of this could be and whether or not it has any bearings on Jasnah's actions we can't really say. We also don't know how long she has been under this influence, from before Gavilars' death, or perhaps it started at some point after that?

Now as for Jasnah, if her only reason for wanting Aesudan out of the picture was indeed as you say to eliminate a political liability, then why she decided not to go through with the assassination? Why have Liss watch her instead?

I just reread the chapter, specifically the part with Jasnah's meeting with Liss, and something stands out to me:

Quote

No. This was too brash. She didn't know if her father realized what she was doing, but even if he hadn't, too much was happening in this palace. She did not want to commit to an assassination until she was more certain.

From this quote we see that Jasnah's inner conflict regarding the assassination comes down to 3 main points; first, that her father might be suspicious of her already which would put her in danger should she proceed with the assassination. Second, is the the issue of timing, seeing as so much was happeing at the palace at the time what with the treaty with the Parshendi. And the third is the she decides she needs to be more certain before proceeding. 

But what it is that she needs to be certain about? If she wants Aesudan dead only because the woman is incompetent and would make a terrible future queen, then what more information does she need? I imagine Aesudan's shallowness, narcissism and political ineptness would have been somewhat obvious to Jasnah at that point, so what more did she need? And what would having Liss observe Aesudan accomplish if there isn't anything more to the woman?

This tells me that there has to be more to Aesudan, or at least that Jasnah believes there to be and I trust Jasnah's judgment.

Sidenote: Somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand but from what we learn of Liss in WOR prologue it appears that she's a Shardbearer- She has a Blade at least. Now given that women usually don't get to be Shardbearers in present day Roshar and also how far she goes to keep her whole operation a secret, it stands to reason that hers isn't a registered Shardblade. Since people keep records of those and if one was missing it would be noted. So she couldn't have stolen a Blade or killed a Shardbearer and taken his Blade for her own, since both of these scenarios are too conspicuous and risky. So does that mean that she had a new unregistered Blade all her own? Which would mean she's a surgbinder?

I know that might be bit of stretch but it just occured to me after rereading the chapter so I had to mention it.  

[Calderis]

39 minutes ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

You make a convincing argument here. And honestly there's a good chance that you could end up being right about this.

 But I still think there could be more. I think the point we both can agree on is the real possibility of an outside influence on Aesudan - from Odium or something similar - that is manipulating her and directing her actions in a certain direction. Now what the wider implications of this could be and whether or not it has any bearings on Jasnah's actions we can't really say. We also don't know how long she has been under this influence, from before Gavilars' death, or perhaps it started at some point after that?

Now as for Jasnah, if her only reason for wanting Aesudan out of the picture was indeed as you say to eliminate a political liability, then why she decided not to go through with the assassination? Why have Liss watch her instead?

I just reread the chapter, specifically the part with Jasnah's meeting with Liss, and something stands out to me:

From this quote we see that Jasnah's inner conflict regarding the assassination comes down to 3 main points; first, that her father might be suspicious of her already which would put her in danger should she proceed with the assassination. Second, is the the issue of timing, seeing as so much was happeing at the palace at the time what with the treaty with the Parshendi. And the third is the she decides she needs to be more certain before proceeding. 

But what it is that she needs to be certain about? If she wants Aesudan dead only because the woman is incompetent and would make a terrible future queen, then what more information does she need? I imagine Aesudan's shallowness, narcissism and political ineptness would have been somewhat obvious to Jasnah at that point, so what more did she need? And what would having Liss observe Aesudan accomplish if there isn't anything more to the woman?

This tells me that there has to be more to Aesudan, or at least that Jasnah believes there to be and I trust Jasnah's judgment.

Sidenote: Somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand but from what we learn of Liss in WOR prologue it appears that she's a Shardbearer- She has a Blade at least. Now given that women usually don't get to be Shardbearers in present day Roshar and also how far she goes to keep her whole operation a secret, it stands to reason that hers isn't a registered Shardblade. Since people keep records of those and if one was missing it would be noted. So she couldn't have stolen a Blade or killed a Shardbearer and taken his Blade for her own, since both of these scenarios are too conspicuous and risky. So does that mean that she had a new unregistered Blade all her own? Which would mean she's a surgbinder?

I know that might be bit of stretch but it just occured to me after rereading the chapter so I had to mention it.  

OK. It's been a while since I read WoR in a while and that interaction does imply more. So let's try and figure out who's manipulating Aesudan. I still stick by the idea she incompetent and being used. 

I'd have aimed for the Diagriamists too if it weren't for the timing being too early, because instability benefits only Mr. T and Odium.

The Sons of Honor... Would take a lot of both Cosmere knowledge and logical leaps to think Aesudan's actions could create instability and assist Odium in bringing back the Voidbringers so the Heralds would return. I don't buy that one. 

We have no clue what the Ghostbloods goals are, but we do know Jasnah is at odds with them so there's a possibility. 

The most mundane Idea I've got has historical precedence, but no in book evidence... I mean, Gavin are just beat the Princedoms into this shakily unified Alethkar. It stands to reason that Elhokar's wife is a political marriage created to pacify a rival. If that pacification failed, the rival then has a spy married to the heir. I would vote this one, but we just lack the info to confirm. 

I sway towards a Alethi political rival, followed by the Ghostbloods... But mainly say it's wait and watch Brandon shock us with something totally unforeseen but accurately foreshadowed.

As for Liss having a shard blade... There are plenty of options here. She could be a Surgebinder, or (and I think this more likely) she just has an unknown blade.

Dalinar's vision of the Recreance show a couple hundred blades for two orders of Knights. There are only around a hundred documented blades, and Helaran/Amaram's blade is a blade we've already seen with no known history. 

I think there are quite a few blades kept in secret, and a he'll of a lot more lost. The possibility of people having hidden blades like Liss is by no means unreasonable.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Calderis
Additional point: Liss

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

@Calderis, yeah Sons of Honor are the least likely candidates here by far. 

Ghostblood, on the other hand, are really likely to be involved here. Given both Jasnah's conflict of interests with them and the fact that they were aware Bordin was left behind by Dalinar to spy on Aesudan which could suggest they have an interest in the matter. 

But, as you said, we know so little of their goals and motivations that it's hard to say anything for certain.

Your 'mundane' option makes a lot of sense here and at this point seems the most likely. Also if the Odium theory turns out to be true, then we could have a political spy who is also influenced by Odium himself as the queen of Alethkar which makes for a whole lot of possibilities and an all around awesome storyline.

Also

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

But mainly say it's wait and watch Brandon shock us with something totally unforeseen but accurately foreshadowed.

This is absolutely something Brandon could and would do which is one of the many reasons we adore him so.

As for Liss, you make some great points that I hadn't but should've considered. So it's pefectly possible for her to have come upon and bonded previously undiscovered Blades. Though Surgebinding is still a possibility.

It'll be interesting, though somewhat convenient, if she does turn out to be a Surgebinder

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

Something just occurred to me regarding unknown Blades and Liss. And I could be way way off here but I'll mention it anyway. 

We know that Taln's Honorblade was swapped for a Shardblade of unknown origin at some point between his arrival in Kholinar at the end of WOK and his arrival at the Shattered Plains in WOR. Now since I'm pretty sure Liss is still in Kholinar spying on Aesudan, and she's, as far as I know, the only Shardbearer present in Kholinar at this point, could she have swapped her Blade for Taln's Honorblade?

Admittedly I'm not really well-informed on the current theories about the Taln's Honorblade, so someone might've already come up with a better theory or there could be WoB I don't know about that contradicts mine, or maybe someone has already proposed this theory somewhere. BUT if not, then its' worth consideration at least. I mean it's pretty likely, though I don't know what Liss's motivation would be for doing this - maybe she just wanted an Honorblade - but it's a possibility nonetheless. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Darkness]

makes some sense... Both she and Bordin were spying on Aesudan, and if she saw him hurry off with a mysterious, shrouded stranger, she could easily choose to follow. I dont know what her incentive for swapping blades might be... Maybe someone was following her blade's trail and she had to get rid of it?

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

9 minutes ago, Darkness said:

makes some sense... Both she and Bordin were spying on Aesudan, and if she saw him hurry off with a mysterious, shrouded stranger, she could easily choose to follow. I dont know what her incentive for swapping blades might be... Maybe someone was following her blade's trail and she had to get rid of it?

Yeah figuring out her motivation here is key and I got nothing on that front.

[Calderis]

The only issue I see with it, is that outside of the Shin, are the Honorblades even known? Beyond pure asthetics would she have any reason to swap out a shard blade for what would appear to be just another shard blade?

Szeth's abilities were unprecedented to the Alethi. I remember plenty of people questioning what he was, but no one linking his abilities to the Radiants, let alone an Honorblade

Whoever switched the blade had to know what it was. Otherwise what motivation is there to steal a shard and replace it with a shard? A swap means that they new it was a trick.

My main question on the blade is was it switched before or after Taln was put into Bordin's care. Because if it was after, Bordin is involved. There's no other explanation for him not recognizing the difference between the blade in the WoK epilogue, and the blade in WoR. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Calderis