ArborealEtymologist Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Why do we get 2 effects from a Nahel bond? Building off the theory that the focus for surgebinding is the Nahel-Bond itself, or more precisely, the puzzle-piece-filling of a Spren into a broken human to form a new reforged/"whole" entity. I posit that it is because the bond works in 2 directions: The spren completing the person's brokenness while the person completes the Spren's sentience. This then implies that each type of bond-forming Spren requires a different aspect of sentience to become whole. So, can we line this up on the Ars Arcanum chart for Divine Attributes and Surges? Let's try! 1st Theory of Combination: Each participant in the bond provides a single row from the Divine Attributes table. - Kaladin provides Protecting/Leading/Adhesion; Syl Provides Just/Confident/Gravitation. - Lift provides Loving/Healing/Abrasion; Wyndle provides Learned/Giving/Progression. - Shallan provides Creative/Honest/Illumination; Pattern provides Wise/Careful/Transformation. Ok this one just looks wrong. Shallan is *not* the honest one in this relationship. But she is the creative one... So on to our... 2nd Theory of Combination: Each Participant provides one of the 2 Divine Attributes from each of the applicable rows in the table. It is then the combination of these 2 attributes that results in the specific surge that is expressed. Furthermore I posit that the two participants in the bond will form an 'X' on the chart between the attributes. Let's see if it holds up: - Kaladin Protecting + Syl Leading = Adhesion; Kaladin Confident + Syl Just = Gravitation. - Lift Loving + Wyndle Healing = Abrasion; Lift Giving + Wyndle Learned = Progression. - Shallan Creative + Pattern Honest = Illumination; Shallan Careful + Pattern Wise = Transformation. - Dalinar Pious + Stormfather Guiding = Tension; Dalinar Leading + Stormfather Protecting = Adhesion OK so far those are looking spot on! Yeah! Now on to more speculative pairings: - Renarin Learned + ____spren Giving = Progression; Renarin Honest + ____spren Creative = Illumination - Jasnah Wise + Ivory Careful = Transformation; Jasnah Builder + Ivory Resolute = Transportation - Skybreaker/Szeth Just + Highspren/Nightblood Confident = Gravitation; Skybreaker/Szeth Obedient + Highspren/Nightblood Brave = Division - Stump (Edgedancer vs. Truthwatcher): I must say I'm stumped by Stump either way. Followup Questions: Can we use this theory to posit the types of spren that will bond the other surgebinders? (E.g. Renarin's spren would in some way bring Giving and Creative to the relationship, so what might that spren be?) Are the Honorspren always Leading & Just and the Windrunner always Protecting and Confident? Could you gain access to the same 2 surges via a different bond with a being who was Leading and Just and a spren who was Protecting and Confident? Could it be that Szeth's pairing with Nightblood is actually a swap/subversion of the traditional Highspren bond? Meaning a normal Skybreaker provides Confident and Brave while the Highspren provides Just and Obedient. Even further - are there 4 types of bonds which could theoretically grant access to the same 2 surges?? (Add Protecting/Just being + Leading Confident spren as well as Leading confident being + Protecting/Just spren.) Edited March 23, 2017 by ArborealEtymologist Added Jasnah/Ivory under speculative 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 Nicely put together. I like it. I'm curious to see whether there are reasons it's a problem, or if it's been proposed before, but on first glance it's intriguing, makes some sense and is prime material for reasoned pattern-based speculation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I had a sort of similar theory way back, even before Words of Radiance came out. Check it out here. It's similar in that I also wondered how the Attributes relate to spren. Note that this was before most of the Surges and Orders were known to us (because WoK only introduced "Pressure", Gravitation, and "Soulcasting") so I focused on the Essence table, i.e. how the Essences related to the Radiant spren's appearance, and the Attributes that each spren seemed to be attracted to or were actively trying to encourage in their bonded humans. Funnily enough, I failed to link Shallan with "Creative", though I was able to link Cryptics to "Honest" so I still ended up associating the Blood Essence to her (we now know that Blood is the Essence linked to the Order of Lightweavers). I also had this weird thing where I even used the inner connections of the Knights Radiant chart (e.g. Zephyr-Lucentia, Blood-Talus, etc.) instead of just the outer connections. This was because Kaladin's role as a healer who cared for others strongly linked him to Lucentia (Loving/Healing) in my eyes even though he's obviously a leader and a protector as well. I admit that your theory looks more plausible since it's based on current information. *upvotes* Edited March 23, 2017 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArborealEtymologist Posted March 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, skaa said: I had a sort of similar theory way back, even before Words of Radiance came out. Oh nice! Yes and you even wondered about the orders being related to more than one type of spren (a la the inner connections on the chart.) Though since not all the orders have 4 total connections to other orders, not sure what those mean thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArborealEtymologist Posted March 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 On 6/14/2013 at 4:29 AM, skaa said: It is also noteworthy that Syl was in her "Lucentia form" when Kaladin was in need of healing (fighting the spren associated with death), and in "Zephyr form" when he needed to protect and lead. Yes this!! I've been wondering about the essences and the appearance of Syl in partiicular! Most often, her non-human-like appearances are either as a zephyr or a cloud/mist. Those align with the 2 essences for windrunners of Zephyr/Translucent Gas/Air and Vapor/Opaque Gas/Smoke/Fog. I love the idea that the times she takes those forms relate particularly to her feelings on the current situation and the divine attributes that might be involved in it. I'll have to pay attention to this on my next re-read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 The surges are naturally paired together, which manifest as the surge binding pairs granted by the Honorblades and the nahel bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 My biggest issue with both theories is Lift and Wyndle. Both combo theories have "healing" with Abrasion, when healing is kinda "Progression's" thing. I might be overdoing the semantics, but it's one of the few direct connections we could make from attribute to surge without having to make leaps of logic. Also, there's an old WoB that the pairs are the way they are for a reason, from when one of us asked about the specific class restrictions of the Surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Actually I never even mentioned Abrasion and Progression in my theory, as I did not know those Surges at the time. But yeah I acknowledge that my Spren Essences theory is out of date. Speaking of out of date theories, I did have another theory that dealt directly with the connection between the Attributes and the Surges. I wrote it when we started learning more Surges but not about Cohesion yet. Using the pattern I came up with I predicted that the final Surge was Magnetism (which of course was wrong), but Cohesion did sort of fit the pattern as well so I edited the theory after WoR came out. I'm not too fond of it now (especially since I didn't anticipate Brandon renaming Pressure to Adhesion, Friction to Abrasion, and Growth to Progression), but maybe some of you might find it interesting. Edited March 23, 2017 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 2 hours ago, skaa said: Actually I never even mentioned Abrasion and Progression in my theory, as I did not know those Surges at the time. But yeah I acknowledge that my Spren Essences theory is out of date. I was referring to the OP's 2 combination ideas. I somehow missed that you linked your old theory (what I get for doing this away from home ) Sorry for the confusion there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArborealEtymologist Posted March 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Both combo theories have "healing" with Abrasion I hear what you are saying here, I think i may have fallen into a fallacy with this one - trying to match surges to essences when it is the orders from the double eye that associate to the heralds/essences/attributes, while the surges fall between the lines, so to speak. Need to think a bit more on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 If we use the standard letters-to-numbers substitution cipher, i.e. A = 1, B = 2, etc., we see that NAHEL (N(14), A(1), H(8), E(5), L(12)) adds up to 40, which - once you divide by the holy number 10, and then take the square root of (to represent symmetry), yields 2. The number of Surges granted by the Nahel bond. Illuminati confirmed. It's okay, it's okay, put the torches and pitchforks down, I'll see myself out... 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted March 23, 2017 Report Share Posted March 23, 2017 6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: I was referring to the OP's 2 combination ideas. I somehow missed that you linked your old theory (what I get for doing this away from home ) Sorry for the confusion there. D'oh! I should've known. I was under the impression that OP abandoned his first combination theory mid-post, so it faded from my memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 On 24/03/2017 at 1:10 AM, The One Who Connects said: My biggest issue with both theories is Lift and Wyndle. Both combo theories have "healing" with Abrasion, when healing is kinda "Progression's" thing. I might be overdoing the semantics, but it's one of the few direct connections we could make from attribute to surge without having to make leaps of logic. Also, there's an old WoB that the pairs are the way they are for a reason, from when one of us asked about the specific class restrictions of the Surges. I found this WoB (I think), I'm surprised I'd never seen it before Quote KHYRINDOR Do the Honourblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade? BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED) The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial. So looks like the surges that pair together actually make one distinct thing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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