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Ishar's Role in the Current State of Roshar


Aoibheann

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Darkness/Nale refers to Ishar in Edgedancer a great deal.  It really makes me question what he's been doing and who he's really aligned with. Emphasis mine

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"Unfortunately, no," Darkness said.  "I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me.  If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths.  Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds.  That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will bedestroyed is a risk that we cannot take.  Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us - the greater law of protecting Roshar - is required."

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"A fluke," Darkness said, his voice firm.  " I contacted Ishar, and he assured me it is so.  What you saw are a few listeners who remain from the old days, ones free to use the old forms.  They summoned a cluster of Voidspren.  We've found remnants of them on Roshar before, hiding."

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"The Voidbringers have not returned," Darkness said firmly.  "Ishar has promised it, and he will not lie.  We must do our duty..."

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Then [Darkness] slumped to his knees.  "Storms. Jezrien ... Ishar ... It is true.  I've failed."

 

Seems to me like Ishar has instructed Nale and the Skybreakers to kill all other surgebinders.  Worse, it wasn't a one time thing, He's been instructing Darkness all along and is a desolation denier even now. 

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4 minutes ago, Aoibheann said:

Darkness/Nale refers to Ishar in Edgedancer a great deal.  It really makes me question what he's been doing and who he's really aligned with. Emphasis mine

 

Seems to me like Ishar has instructed Nale and the Skybreakers to kill all other surgebinders.  Worse, it wasn't a one time thing, He's been instructing Darkness all along and is a desolation denier even now. 

Yeah, Ishar has something going on.

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CCQ

Did Ishar intentionally deceive Nalan or does Ishar have bad info that he passed on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes and no. All of the heralds are insane.

CCQ

So I clarified the question to being did Ishar know that he was lying to Nalan

BRANDON SANDERSON

got a RAFO but he added something that seemed to mean that Ishar could perhaps see the future and that each insanity was unique and that uniqueness played a part in the info. Not really sure on the last part.

[Source]

 

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Ishar is also the one who told the other Heralds that the Oathpact would probably still hold with just Taln stuck in Damnation so if there's more going on than just his particular flavor of insanity then it's potentially been going on for a long time. Which isn't helped by the one epigraph from the Diagram 'One is almost certainly a traitor to the others'. It's part of the same collection of text that talks about the Unmade but there's a gap of about ten paragraphs between those entries and the one about a traitor so it's possible the topic changed somewhere in between those paragraphs from the Unmade to the Heralds.

Either way, there's definitely lots of material seeded here for whenever Ishar finally appears in person.

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On 23/03/2017 at 10:09 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Yeah, Ishar has something going on.

 

I like this quote a lot.

I am trying to wonder what each Herald's insanity ends up being?

 

Jerizen - Nale referred to him as drooling (in a sense indecisive/cowardly)?

Nale - cruelty

Ishar - bad advice ?

Shalash - obsessed with destroying her own statues faces

 

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1 hour ago, axcellence said:

Jerizen - Nale referred to him as drooling (in a sense indecisive/cowardly)?

Nale - cruelty

Ishar - bad advice ?

Shalash - obsessed with destroying her own statues faces

I would say Nale has an obsession with preventing another Desolation, even if the reason he's been told that another Desolation would happen is likely known to him to be wrong. He's still obsessed enough to latch on to any idea to prevent one.

Shalash, we don't really have enough, but based on what has been seen, I guess it's some sort of self-deprecation or atonement. It's not about destroying the stuff, it's about the effort made to do so.

Not really enough to say anything regarding Jezerien or Ishar.

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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I would say Nale has an obsession with preventing another Desolation, even if the reason he's been told that another Desolation would happen is likely known to him to be wrong. He's still obsessed enough to latch on to any idea to prevent one.

Shalash, we don't really have enough, but based on what has been seen, I guess it's some sort of self-deprecation or atonement. It's not about destroying the stuff, it's about the effort made to do so.

Not really enough to say anything regarding Jezerien or Ishar.

I think in the Prologue, Kalak mentions seeing the fear in Jerizen's eyes.  That combined with the drooling comment in edgedancer, that I suggest some sort of indecisiveness/cowardice.

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I had an idea on Ishar's insanity earlier. He threatened to "destroy each and every [KR], unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." Now that the Recreance has happened, his addled mind may consider that as the KR not agreeing to be bound by the Ideals, and he needs to keep his word to destroy them and fabricated an idea that Nalan would believe so that Ishar could use him as the instrument of carrying out his threat.

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On 5/5/2017 at 4:48 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I had an idea on Ishar's insanity earlier. He threatened to "destroy each and every [KR], unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." Now that the Recreance has happened, his addled mind may consider that as the KR not agreeing to be bound by the Ideals, and he needs to keep his word to destroy them and fabricated an idea that Nalan would believe so that Ishar could use him as the instrument of carrying out his threat.

That is brilliant. Kudos to my new headcanon. 

Edited by Calderis
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On 5/5/2017 at 5:06 PM, Calderis said:

That is brilliant. Kudos to my new headcount. 

 

On 5/5/2017 at 4:48 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I had an idea on Ishar's insanity earlier. He threatened to "destroy each and every [KR], unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." Now that the Recreance has happened, his addled mind may consider that as the KR not agreeing to be bound by the Ideals, and he needs to keep his word to destroy them and fabricated an idea that Nalan would believe so that Ishar could use him as the instrument of carrying out his threat.

Could he view abandoning he Recreance to be a new binding oath upon the Radiants? Leave and never come back or of that variety

You just made my brain do summersaults...

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On 15.05.2017 at 9:46 PM, iamstick said:

I'm going with a computer science explanation for Shalash. I think she thinks if she destroys all references to herself, she can deallocate.

Sadly, I am out of upvotes, but do know that this is an amazing explanation :lol:

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What I don't fully understand is that Ishar was not originally the leader of the Heralds. Jezerin was the one who would "train the leaders", also his image contains a crown. He was the leader, not Ishar. So why does everybody want to listen to Ishar?

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1 minute ago, Figberts said:

What I don't fully understand is that Ishar was not originally the leader of the Heralds. Jezerin was the one who would "train the leaders", also his image contains a crown. He was the leader, not Ishar. So why does everybody want to listen to Ishar?

Bondsmith-esque Reputation. Bondsmiths are the guys in charge of the KR, so the Patron of Bondsmiths could conceivably end up "in charge" of the scattered Heralds, especially in light of Nalan's drooling comment about Jezrien.

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On 18/5/2017 at 6:29 PM, Figberts said:

What I don't fully understand is that Ishar was not originally the leader of the Heralds. Jezerin was the one who would "train the leaders", also his image contains a crown. He was the leader, not Ishar. So why does everybody want to listen to Ishar?

jezerin is the king of the heralds, but a king need scholar, advisor and so on, ishar is probably the most wise herald. (and the older i think, he is decipted bald)

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So Ishar gave Nalan the mission to protect Roshar, which he explained as preventing a return of the Radiants--because if they returned, it could cause another Desolation. World ending must be prevented.

Meanwhile, the Sons of Honor are trying to bring back the Voidbringers, because doing so will return the Radiants. At least for Amaram, this seems to be the desire because he wants to revive Vorinism.

Is it likely then that there's some sort of 'balance' that must be struck between voidspren and...umm...nonvoidspren? That's why if either Radiants or Voidbringers return, the other must as well? Could be tied to the symmetry that's so prevalent on Roshar.

In that case I understand Ishar's motive, although it seems obvious that the Skybreakers would eventually be overwhelmed by more and more surgebinders appearing.

Edited by Stormlightning
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On 3/22/2017 at 4:25 PM, Weltall said:

Ishar is also the one who told the other Heralds that the Oathpact would probably still hold with just Taln stuck in Damnation so if there's more going on than just his particular flavor of insanity then it's potentially been going on for a long time. Which isn't helped by the one epigraph from the Diagram 'One is almost certainly a traitor to the others'. It's part of the same collection of text that talks about the Unmade but there's a gap of about ten paragraphs between those entries and the one about a traitor so it's possible the topic changed somewhere in between those paragraphs from the Unmade to the Heralds.

Either way, there's definitely lots of material seeded here for whenever Ishar finally appears in person.

You bring up a good point. Theres a lot of things that could be talking about though. What if this is Taravangian deducing that one order of the knights radiant betrayed the others, like what WoR implies?

On 5/5/2017 at 4:48 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I had an idea on Ishar's insanity earlier. He threatened to "destroy each and every [KR], unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." Now that the Recreance has happened, his addled mind may consider that as the KR not agreeing to be bound by the Ideals, and he needs to keep his word to destroy them and fabricated an idea that Nalan would believe so that Ishar could use him as the instrument of carrying out his threat.

Oooh I like this train of thought.

On 5/15/2017 at 0:46 PM, iamstick said:

I'm going with a computer science explanation for Shalash. I think she thinks if she destroys all references to herself, she can deallocate.

Ahahahaha YES that's definitely it

On 5/22/2017 at 0:08 PM, Stormlightning said:

So Ishar gave Nalan the mission to protect Roshar, which he explained as preventing a return of the Radiants--because if they returned, it could cause another Desolation. World ending must be prevented.

Meanwhile, the Sons of Honor are trying to bring back the Voidbringers, because doing so will return the Radiants. At least for Amaram, this seems to be the desire because he wants to revive Vorinism.

Is it likely then that there's some sort of 'balance' that must be struck between voidspren and...umm...nonvoidspren? That's why if either Radiants or Voidbringers return, the other must as well? Could be tied to the symmetry that's so prevalent on Roshar.

In that case I understand Ishar's motive, although it seems obvious that the Skybreakers would eventually be overwhelmed by more and more surgebinders appearing.

I've really been wondering about this. I get that both Ameram and Nale are both misguided, but even misguided people tend to have some rational basis. Why do people keep supposing that if one appears, the other will too? That belief should have a source...

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2 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Why do people keep supposing that if one appears, the other will too? That belief should have a source...

Not sure about Nalan's reasoning, but Amaram's logic seemed quite simple. We know that a Desolation comes when the Heralds break under torture, and to the people of Roshar, the Heralds arrival means that a Desolation is coming too.

Is it too much to assume that that can lead to a misinterpretation that Honor/Almighty sends the Heralds in response to a Desolation starting, rather than the opposite? A la "Midnight Essence are a sign that one is coming," the Almighty interprets those signs and sends warning in the form of Heralds. Under this assumption, they tried to start a Desolation by bringing back the enemy, which would be a clear sign to the Almighty that he should bring back the Heralds.

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not sure about Nalan's reasoning, but Amaram's logic seemed quite simple. We know that a Desolation comes when the Heralds break under torture, and to the people of Roshar, the Heralds arrival means that a Desolation is coming too.

Is it too much to assume that that can lead to a misinterpretation that Honor/Almighty sends the Heralds in response to a Desolation starting, rather than the opposite? A la "Midnight Essence are a sign that one is coming," the Almighty interprets those signs and sends warning in the form of Heralds. Under this assumption, they tried to start a Desolation by bringing back the enemy, which would be a clear sign to the Almighty that he should bring back the Heralds.

Ameram's logic does seem quite simple. That is precisely why I think there's more to it.

It's very easy to dismiss Ameram's reasoning as simplistic, a clear instance of the confusion between causation and correlation.

But this is one of the most powerful secret societies in Roshar that we are talking about. I think it is likely that something more than raw speculation caused them to conclude that voidbringers result in the heralds. Their conclusion is quite likely still mistaken, but I think there must be an underlying truth to it.

And on top of that there is Nale. Nale is insane, and taking counsel from Ishar who is also insane. That should probably explain his actions. But even insanity is not utterly irrational. What's more, Nale was once a herald. If anyone understands what caused the desolations, shouldn't a former herald? Again, I am inclined to conclude that Nale's conclusion is mistaken, but still based on some underlying truth.

This is what makes me wonder if there is some kind of balance of power on Roshar.

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On 6/13/2017 at 1:18 PM, Drake Marshall said:

And on top of that there is Nale. Nale is insane, and taking counsel from Ishar who is also insane. That should probably explain his actions. But even insanity is not utterly irrational. What's more, Nale was once a herald. If anyone understands what caused the desolations, shouldn't a former herald? Again, I am inclined to conclude that Nale's conclusion is mistaken, but still based on some underlying truth.

This is what makes me wonder if there is some kind of balance of power on Roshar.

Again, SYMMETRY. This is one thing that is all over the place--the continent itself is a storming fractal--that's got to have a significant source. The Culture is overflowing with symmetric symbols, but that's probably just a result of some other underlying truth that started it all. That truth about symmetry is probably what has Ishar frightened of the Radiant's return.

I was going to point out a story Hoid once shared as an analogy illustrating how people often forget the original purpose of their traditions even as they continue practicing them...but that story is from Dragonsteel...so maybe it doesn't apply so much. Although thinking about it DID make me see some real significance in what Jasnah is doing as a Veristitilian. She's trying to go back to the SOURCE of all the stories and legends and myths. Heck, that might even be why she and Amaram don't get along; he's determined to this voidbringers are causation, and she suspects it's just correlation. But I digress.

There's always another secret.

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On 6/14/2017 at 11:05 PM, Stormlightning said:

Again, SYMMETRY. This is one thing that is all over the place--the continent itself is a storming fractal--that's got to have a significant source. The Culture is overflowing with symmetric symbols, but that's probably just a result of some other underlying truth that started it all. That truth about symmetry is probably what has Ishar frightened of the Radiant's return.

I was going to point out a story Hoid once shared as an analogy illustrating how people often forget the original purpose of their traditions even as they continue practicing them...but that story is from Dragonsteel...so maybe it doesn't apply so much. Although thinking about it DID make me see some real significance in what Jasnah is doing as a Veristitilian. She's trying to go back to the SOURCE of all the stories and legends and myths. Heck, that might even be why she and Amaram don't get along; he's determined to this voidbringers are causation, and she suspects it's just correlation. But I digress.

There's always another secret.

The continent is an image taken from a frame of an animation on Wikipedia. There's no actual mathematical significance to its shape, because it's a 2D projection of a 3D slice of a 4D fractal, and the angle was chosen by whoever uploaded the animation and has no significance, while the particular frame was (presumably) chosen entirely because it made it look cool.

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On 22/03/2017 at 8:30 PM, The One Who Connects said:

A point to be considered about what "Ishar believes" is that he was right: Taln's participation in the Oathpact did keep it intact.

Depending on when the insanity began, he may have been right about other things and we just don't know it.

I have the feeling that the Oathpact was NOT kept intact. I think that they weakened the Oathpact somehow, presenting Odium with an advantage (whatever it may be).

 

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