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Idealistic

Breaths questions

18 posts in this topic

At some point of Warbreaker Denth cuts an awakened rope, so my question is what happened with the breaths inside the rope? are they divided between the parts?

Also we know from Vasher that only the person who put the breaths inside a object or awakens something can get the breaths back, so if an awakener dies without recover the breaths, What happens with the breath inside the object? It lies there forever? It seems like a waste for me.

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I wondered about the same thing then I reread that part recently. I figure that the Awakener can recover at least partial breath back from both ropes, but I don't have any WoB to base that on. As for the death of an Awakener, the breaths are indeed lost.

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Posted (edited)

We don't know exactly what happens when you split an Awakened object but the rope does continue to move after being split so it's possible the Breath gets split between parts until the object is too damaged (in both a Physical and Cognitive sense) and the Awakening simply falls apart. We know something similar can happen with magic systems on other worlds so it's likely the same applies here. Mistborn details and spoilers through Alloy of Law

Feruchemical metalminds that are damaged still retain some of the attribute stored in them, split between parts. Similarly, a Hemalurgic spike can retain a small charge even if the original spike is split up many many times. It's how the Pathian earrings work in Era 2

As for what happens to Breaths after someone has died (whether they were holding them or they were in Awakened objects) we know that they're effectively lost but Brandon has suggested that it might be possible to harvest at least some of these 'lost' Breaths.

Edited by Weltall
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That's very interesting about the harvesting. I'd always thought they'd be lost (as concluded in the book), but that gives me a lot to think about! Like Vasher said, we don't really know very much about breath.

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There was a Reddit WoB (that I'll find tomorrow) about "Bob the Awakener"

If he was made into a lifeless after death, he could not recover the breath, but if he became a Returned, he could.

As for splitting the object, I think there was a WoB about it, but I may be remembering the one about breaking metalminds. It stands to reason that they would work the same way because "underlying rules and all that..."

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55 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

There was a Reddit WoB (that I'll find tomorrow) about "Bob the Awakener"

If he was made into a lifeless after death, he could not recover the breath, but if he became a Returned, he could.

As for splitting the object, I think there was a WoB about it, but I may be remembering the one about breaking metalminds. It stands to reason that they would work the same way because "underlying rules and all that..."

Good memory. Here it is.

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Oudeis16
1y

If Bob the Awakener Awakened fifty straw men to dance around, then died, then Returned as FormerBob the Appropriately Named, would FormerBob be able to reclaim the Breath from the straw men in the normal fashion (once he learned the "Your Breath to Mine" Command)?

 
 
 
10
 
 
 
mistborn
 
1y

Yes. He has enough of his original Identity, and the spiritual connection would remain.

 
 
 
8
 
 
 
 
sonofstannis
1y

What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then?

 
 
 
5
 
 
 
 
 
mistborn
 
1y

Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely.

 
 
 
6
 
 
 
 
 
 
WeiryWriter
1y

What if the Lifeless is Awakened with their own Breath? (i.e. they gave it away right before they died and the person they gave it to then used it in the Awakening)

 
 
 
4
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
mistborn
 
1y

This has happened already in the world, and it does help.

Here is a possibly relevant WoB to the question of splitting the object (though it's an old one).

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LITTLE_WILSON

Mi'chelle is wanting to know for a fanfic she's wanting to write if when you cut/break an object that has been Awakened if the object then "dies", or if the pieces will try to carry out the command. Also, either way, can the breaths be recovered from it?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The object does not die, and will try to continue its purpose. The level of damage will determine just how well it can continue. The Breaths are recoverable. (Though there could be some loss of Breaths, depending on how the item is destroyed.) There's a scene near the end where Vasher Awakens some clothing, then it gets cut down and he recovers the Breath

I haven't found an answer to what happens to Breaths imparted by someone now dead. I'm guessing when the object itself degrades or is destroyed the Breaths return to the system as they do with a normal Nalthian who dies still with their Breath.

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It probably matters if the object is intact enough that it can see itself as what it was before. It it were burned, it might see itself as ash and lose the breaths. If it's just cut up, it will see itself as as what it was before, just cut up, and keep its breath.

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I do believe that...

Spoiler

The breath would be lost forever. I believe that Denth tells Vivenna something to that effect when she is thinking about whether or not she should take Lemex's breaths.

 

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On 7/29/2017 at 10:31 PM, Nathrangking said:

I do believe that...

  Hide contents

The breath would be lost forever. I believe that Denth tells Vivenna something to that effect when she is thinking about whether or not she should take Lemex's breaths.

I believe you are still technically correct, but not for the reasons you think. It's a bit more uncertain.

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Q: Cognitive shadows have been a popular topic recently, so I figure I can try to clarify some things about them:
   3: Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?
 
A: Point three: Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.
 
Q: Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?
 
A: RAFO.

Yes, it's a RAFO, but Argent makes a good case for being able to spike a body shortly after death and still get something. If he's right about this, then it comes down to our continuing discourse about whether you can spike out Breath. Denth is correct within the context of Awakening, but he may not be completely right(which Brandon likes doing).

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I'll settle for technically correct especially when being able to steal a breath through hemalurgy is merely theoretical at this point in time.

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2 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I'll settle for technically correct especially when being able to steal a breath through hemalurgy is merely theoretical at this point in time.

It's not theoretical, it's contradictory. Brandon has said that you can, and that you can't. We haven't gotten a clarification yet, so it's still up for grabs.

Quote

I asked a couple of questions about Hemalurgy - firstly whether a Hemalurgic spike could steal Surges, and secondly, Breath. I can't remember his exact wording (it was a LONG time ago!) but it was definitely a yes in both cases. It sounded like he'd thought through its use with surges quite thoroughly - as if it was something he'd like to explore in the future. He said that stealing Breath was possible, but that it was a bit inconvenient and not that useful as there are far easier (and much less violent!) ways to transfer Breath.

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[00:12:00]

Questioner: With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths when they get to the other planets?

Brandon: So, spikes rip off pieces of the soul, and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul.  You could maybe get a divine Breath, but I haven’t really decided on regular Breaths, they’re kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm, which is not something the spikes are dealing with.  Divine Breath potentially, because that’s like something that’s actually melding on to your soul

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Well then I'll take an unresolved contradiction.

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3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I believe you are still technically correct, but not for the reasons you think. It's a bit more uncertain.

Yes, it's a RAFO, but Argent makes a good case for being able to spike a body shortly after death and still get something. If he's right about this, then it comes down to our continuing discourse about whether you can spike out Breath. Denth is correct within the context of Awakening, but he may not be completely right(which Brandon likes doing).

That WoB is the basis for why I believe that the Cognitive aspect is what we traditionally consider the soul. 

The body and spirit leave corpses behind to rot, and the Cognitive goes beyond. 

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There is a lot of evidence which says that you are in fact correct @Calderis.

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7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Yes, it's a RAFO, but Argent makes a good case for being able to spike a body shortly after death and still get something. If he's right about this, then it comes down to our continuing discourse about whether you can spike out Breath.

If this is correct, would it be a one time use, or could you spike someone for some of their Breath (or other attribute), killing them, and then spike them again for additional Breaths or attributes?

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As far as we have seen hemalurgical spikes are a one shot deal you stab take whatever there is to take and thats it no double dipping.

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14 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

If this is correct, would it be a one time use, or could you spike someone for some of their Breath (or other attribute), killing them, and then spike them again for additional Breaths or attributes?

It rips that chunk out of the soul. If you go back and spike the same thing, there shouldn't be anything there to take. 

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Posted (edited)

There is no double dipping with the spike its an all or nothing proposition.

Edited by Nathrangking
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