What is a Dragon?

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

So, no WoBs or anything, because I don't have my copperminds with me today, so I'll check The Coppermind, but there are dragons in the Cosmere. But what is a Cosmerean Dragon? By the deeds of Brandon Tropebreaker, I doubt that such dragons would be the winged beasts that we are all very familiar with in common fantasy. This is not common fantasy, this is High Fantasy of the Highest Order! So what would a dragon be? Would it have wings, be quadrupedal or bipedal (I think it's safe to say they are reptilian), etc?

Share your thoughts on the Dragons of the Cosmere.

[Fezzik]

WoB says they can assume human form. Not sure if each dragon has just 1 human form, or if they have actual shapeshifting abilities. Or if "human form" just means two arms, legs, and and a face. And that is all the info. the coppermind has on dragons.

[CaptainRyan]

Honestly, I expect them to be the winged beasts that we are all familiar with but with some Sanderson trope-breaking flair. Sanderson puts the fan in fantasy so I would imagine he has a deep love of dragons. He constantly cites Anne McCaffrey as an influence and I am sure he is familiar with the DragonLance series. I sincerely hope they are winged, quadrupedal, fire breathing, shape-shifting dragons that, uh, have something unique haha.

Edited March 18, 2017 by CaptainRyan

[Weltall]

Brandon has even said that he specifically included them as 'the one fantasy race' because he's a big fan of dragons. So they're probably going to have at least a few common dragon-ish traits along with his own Sandersonian touches.

Other things we know: Frost (the person Hoid is exchanging letters with) is a dragon and through that we know that dragons are naturally immortal but they can still be killed.

We can speculate (but not confirm) that their ability to assume human form means shapeshifting rather than having a single human form; this is based largely on the idea that Bavadin might be a dragon and what we know about her. Though since we know next to nothing about Yolen's third sentient race we can't really be entirely confident in that speculation.

[Spoolofwhool]

On 3/17/2017 at 7:46 PM, Weltall said:

dragons are naturally immortal but they can still be killed.

Actually, the letter indicates the contrary; the recipient was indicated to have achieved functional immortality somehow, meaning that they aren't naturally immortal. Unless of course the recipient isn't a dragon, which is entirely possible.

Edit: It's been later confirmed that dragons are naturally unaging, so whatever "essentially immortal" that Hoid is referring to is something else about Frost.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Spoolofwhool

[Khyrindor]

23 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actually, the letter indicates the contrary; the recipient was indicated to have achieved functional immortality somehow, meaning that they aren't naturally immortal. Unless of course the recipient isn't a dragon, which is entirely possible.

If I recall correctly, the indication was about Hoid, not Frost. 

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

If I recall correctly, the indication was about Hoid, not Frost. 

Quote

Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given. I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think. 

- Letter, Way of Kings

It's the letter which is believed to have been written by Hoid, and sent to Frost. By the wording, "essentially immortal" is a state the recipient reached, indicated that they didn't start in that state.

[Farnsworth]

The dragon in the AU map looked kind of like a snake, so I would imagine that dragons in the Cosmere look somewhat like that.

[Weltall]

9 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actually, the letter indicates the contrary; the recipient was indicated to have achieved functional immortality somehow, meaning that they aren't naturally immortal. Unless of course the recipient isn't a dragon, which is entirely possible.

I recognize that there's an apparent contradiction here but everything we have indicates that 1) Frost is the recipient of the Letter, 2) Frost is a dragon and 3) Frost was naturally immortal. So I'm not sure how we resolve it, unless we focus on the 'they don't age but can still be killed' aspect and take it that Frost did something (or something happened around him) to make it effectively impossible that he could encounter anything that could actually kill him. Here's the combined WoBs that I'm working with:

Quote

Question

Who is the oldest character we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Frost is almost certainly the oldest by a small amount. After that, Hoid.

Frost>Hoid, pretty simple.

Quote

Question

Is Hoid a dragon?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh I will give you a RAFO card. Have you read Dragonsteel? Don’t read it, it’s bad. He is one of the oldest people in the cosmere, but he is not the oldest. The person he is writing a letter to is indeed older than he is.

If Frost is the only person in the Cosmere older than Hoid, then Hoid must be writing to Frost. We have another WoB (from Twitter) that more or less confirms it in a different way as well.

Quote

Question

What do you want to know about Frost? Everything.

Brandon Sanderson

I’m not going to tell you everything about Frost. He’s still alive. He can be killed, he’s just functionally immortal, he just doesn’t age. He was born as one. It is a race.

According to Brandon, Frost was born immortal and this is a trait of his race.

Quote

Question

Where Hoid and Frost some of the older humans created by Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find that out eventually… Frost is not a human.

Question

You know Hoid's Letter, that is in The Way of Kings, it is given to a dragon right?

Brandon Sanderson

He calls himself an old reptile.

Question

I was wondering if we were very going to see Dragons in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Dragonsteel. One of the first books I ever wrote in the Cosmere has dragons. It's also just one of the weaker books, so I can't publish it as is, but yea. Being a big fan of dragons, I did write them into the Cosmere. They are the one standard fantasy race in there.

Question

Are they ever going to infiltrate the other worlds kind of?

Brandon Sanderson

*Talks about the letter and Frost, Flashback order, and the girls costume*

 

From these three we know that Frost isn't human which leaves dragon or the third sentient race and Hoid calls Frost 'you old reptile'. Frost apparently calls himself that as well. The last one is a paraphrase but the mention of Frost in the same context as dragons in the Cosmere is rather suggestive.

[Spoolofwhool]

43 minutes ago, Weltall said:

According to Brandon, Frost was born immortal and this is a trait of his race.

Good that you brought up that WoB. However, I'll point out, as was pointed out to me, that it isn't reliable on saying that he was born as an immortal, and doesn't actually appear to be saying that at all. Break down what it's talking about. "He's just functionally immortal": This is an adjective being used to describe Frost's state of being. "He was born as one": This is a statement indicating that Frost was born as some afore-mentioned noun. Put the two together and it becomes apparent that the second statement shouldn't be describing the first, and that there should be some other statement in-between. A missing statement is further indicated by the last statement, "It is a race." Obviously, "functionally immortal" is not a race. Therefore, there was probably something else Brandon said in the middle, regarding his race, that the person who paraphrased and submitted the WoB left out.

51 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Frost>Hoid, pretty simple.

This indicates nothing about him being naturally immortal.

52 minutes ago, Weltall said:

If Frost is the only person in the Cosmere older than Hoid, then Hoid must be writing to Frost. We have another WoB (from Twitter) that more or less confirms it in a different way as well.

Fair point on the letter, but then this just further supports that Frost gained functional immortality somehow. 

[dyring]

25 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Good that you brought up that WoB. However, I'll point out, as was pointed out to me, that it isn't reliable on saying that he was born as an immortal, and doesn't actually appear to be saying that at all. Break down what it's talking about. "He's just functionally immortal": This is an adjective being used to describe Frost's state of being. "He was born as one": This is a statement indicating that Frost was born as some afore-mentioned noun. Put the two together and it becomes apparent that the second statement shouldn't be describing the first, and that there should be some other statement in-between. A missing statement is further indicated by the last statement, "It is a race." Obviously, "functionally immortal" is not a race. Therefore, there was probably something else Brandon said in the middle, regarding his race, that the person who paraphrased and submitted the WoB left out.

This indicates nothing about him being naturally immortal.

Fair point on the letter, but then this just further supports that Frost gained functional immortality somehow. 

Not really, since that would leave " He was born as one. It is a race. " completely outside any meaning. Yes, being functionally immortal isnt a race, but there is nothing else it can mean. There is no race at all mentioned. Most likley, Brandon was speaking carefully, and was thinking dragon but didnt want to say it. This, he said "it is a race" despite not having mentioned a race.

As said, there just isnt anything else it could mean. For it not being a racial thing that frost does not age, Brandon would haveto have had a sudden and shortlived bout of dementia and just sprouted "He was born as one it is a race" for no reason at all.

*edit

The letter part is odd and dont quite fit. It may well be that he is now functionally safe from being killed aswell, not just from dying of old age.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by dyring
correcting spelling

[Farnsworth]

Frost seems like an odd name for someone who breaths fire.

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, Figberts said:

Frost seems like an odd name for someone who breaths fire.

Considering he says Dragons are the one standard fantasy race, I don't think they're limited to the fire type. There are plenty of instances of ice dragons in fantasy. Until we learn more though... 

[ZenBossanova]

It took all this to mean (and I seem to remember a WoB to this effect) that Dragons are immortal, IF they survive to that phase of their life. 

[Weltall]

@Figberts I can think of a couple explanations. One, maybe dragons in the Cosmere don't breath fire. Two, as Calderis mentions perhaps there are dragons that have different types of breath (fire, ice, lightning, acid, the rare Awesome Dragon that belches rainbows...). Three, who can ponder the mystery of dragons and their names, maybe Frost does breathe fire and has a good reason to be named that unrelated to his bad breath. xD

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This indicates nothing about him being naturally immortal.

Yeah, I know, I just wanted to establish the chain of evidence linking Frost to the Letters (and hence, the 'old reptile' description).

Quote

Break down what it's talking about. "He's just functionally immortal": This is an adjective being used to describe Frost's state of being. "He was born as one": This is a statement indicating that Frost was born as some afore-mentioned noun. Put the two together and it becomes apparent that the second statement shouldn't be describing the first, and that there should be some other statement in-between. A missing statement is further indicated by the last statement, "It is a race." Obviously, "functionally immortal" is not a race. Therefore, there was probably something else Brandon said in the middle, regarding his race, that the person who paraphrased and submitted the WoB left out.

I think this is down to interpretation. Brandon could just as easily have meant the second statement (he was born as one) to mean 'he was born an immortal' as it is that there's a missing sentence in there. Bearing in mind that real life isn't like books and people don't always say things with perfect grammar. Especially if you're Brandon and trying to decide on the spot how much you can/should say. Or have been at a signing for four or five hours already and are having as much trouble stringing a perfect sentence together as David is at coming up with similiesmetaphors. Same thing with the second sentence, one could interpret that as Brandon meaning 'it's a trait of his race' and he dropped a couple of words getting it out. Like Dyring says, its inclusion in that response is something of a non-sequitur unless it was meant to refer to Frost.

All that said, I'll grant you that the WoB is an admitted paraphrase so it's possible there's something that got lost there but... I don't think it's terribly likely. And point you back to my guess that Frost may now be 'more immortal' by virtue of either isolating himself from the possibility of anyone/thing that can kill him, or having that situation imposed on him (by, say, some serious depopulation on Yolen removing anything that could reasonably threaten his life) as a way of explaining the seeming contradiction between the Letter and the WoB.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Weltall
Storming quote tags

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, dyring said:

Not really, since that would leave " He was born as one. It is a race. " completely outside any meaning. Yes, being functionally immortal isnt a race, but there is nothing else it can mean. There is no race at all mentioned. Most likley, Brandon was speaking carefully, and was thinking dragon but didnt want to say it. This, he said "it is a race" despite not having mentioned a race.

As I explained, both empty references indicate a strong chances that something Brandon said is missing. Add that reference, and "He was born as one" and "It is his race" make sense as part of the answer.

52 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I think this is down to interpretation. Brandon could just as easily have meant the second statement (he was born as one) to mean 'he was born an immortal' as it is that there's a missing sentence in there. Bearing in mind that real life isn't like books and people don't always say things with perfect grammar. Especially if you're Brandon and trying to decide on the spot how much you can/should say. Or have been at a signing for four or five hours already and are having as much trouble stringing a perfect sentence together as David is at coming up with similiesmetaphors. Same thing with the second sentence, one could interpret that as Brandon meaning 'it's a trait of his race' and he dropped a couple of words getting it out. Like Dyring says, its inclusion in that response is something of a non-sequitur unless it was meant to refer to Frost.

Entirely possible, but I would still chalk up a good amount to the WoB being inaccurate, which is why I wouldn't say it is anywhere near confirmed that dragons are naturally immortal, especially considering that the something with confirmed wording, the letter, indicates more strongly otherwise.

52 minutes ago, Weltall said:

All that said, I'll grant you that the WoB is an admitted paraphrase so it's possible there's something that got lost there but... I don't think it's terribly likely. And point you back to my guess that Frost may now be 'more immortal' by virtue of either isolating himself from the possibility of anyone/thing that can kill him, or having that situation imposed on him (by, say, some serious depopulation on Yolen removing anything that could reasonably threaten his life) as a way of explaining the seeming contradiction between the Letter and the WoB.

Possible as well, but still tenacious as an explanation.

Honestly, I'm not seeing enough evidence to assume that dragons are naturally immortal, and more evidence that indicates that they aren't and Frost just achieved immortality by some other means. I'm curious though as to why you're pushing the "dragons are naturally immortal" line so hard though when the best evidence for it being true is a grammatically flawed statement that is more than likely missing a statement. 

Edit: Link to the post which convinced me that WoB is flawed. The person who convinced also provided a transcript of the WoB which indicates that something is in fact missing. 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Datan Nomlibash]

Didn't Brandon go to Korea for a religious mission? What if he used Korean dragon tropes to spice it up? Gotta wikipedia it now.

[Jondesu]

I imagine something along the lines of the transformation from dragon to human and back from Seventh Son (haven't seen the movie, but it was shown briefly in the trailer).  A full-on dragon (mostly European style in that case, though I think Brandon's dragons will have some more Asian influence), landing and simply…shrinking down and looking human in a single fluid motion.  To clarify on the appearance, I expect the Cosmere dragons to have the long bodies of Chinese dragons, somewhat, but to retain arms and legs, and I somewhat don't expect them to breath fire, but I'm not sure why I've got that stuck in my head.  They'll be cunning and crafty by nature, though, which Hoid implies fairly heavily about Frost, but with the usual range of personalities we'd expect of any sapient race in the Cosmere, rather than the stereotyped dragon personality of other mediums (always greedy and quick to anger, for instance).

[Erai Sedai]

12 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I imagine something along the lines of the transformation from dragon to human and back from Seventh Son (haven't seen the movie, but it was shown briefly in the trailer).  A full-on dragon (mostly European style in that case, though I think Brandon's dragons will have some more Asian influence), landing and simply…shrinking down and looking human in a single fluid motion.  To clarify on the appearance, I expect the Cosmere dragons to have the long bodies of Chinese dragons, somewhat, but to retain arms and legs, and I somewhat don't expect them to breath fire, but I'm not sure why I've got that stuck in my head.  They'll be cunning and crafty by nature, though, which Hoid implies fairly heavily about Frost, but with the usual range of personalities we'd expect of any sapient race in the Cosmere, rather than the stereotyped dragon personality of other mediums (always greedy and quick to anger, for instance).

This is what I think as well. But at the same time I've got the feeling he might want to reinvent it all a bit and they'll be "types" of dragons we just can't imagine right now.

I've got the feeling he's gonna surprise us either way

[Jondesu]

Just now, Erai Sedai said:

This is what I think as well. But at the same time I've got the feeling he might want to reinvent it all a bit and they'll be "types" of dragons we just can't imagine right now.

I've got the feeling he's gonna surprise us either way

It's Brandon. Of course he'll surprise us. 

[Yata]

You all remember that whatever a Cosmere Dragon is. It has to fit into Realmatic theory so this places a limitation to the possibilities

Edited March 19, 2017 by Yata

[Jondesu]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

You all remember that whatever a Cosmere Dragon is. It has ti fit into Realmatic theory so this places a limitation to the possibilities

Yep, but shapeshifting is of course within the limitations of some Realmatic systems already, and having it be innate is certainly possible. Flight as well, and fire/ice breathing (see Elantrians), but of course there would have to be a source of Investiture to draw on. Since Frost at least was around before the Shattering, he would have been drawing on Adolnasium's Investiture I would assume, so nothing would be hampered by a specific Intent, but it wouldn't just be rule-less unlimited power (Sidious, is that you?).

[Yata]

4 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Yep, but shapeshifting is of course within the limitations of some Realmatic systems already, and having it be innate is certainly possible. Flight as well, and fire/ice breathing (see Elantrians), but of course there would have to be a source of Investiture to draw on. Since Frost at least was around before the Shattering, he would have been drawing on Adolnasium's Investiture I would assume, so nothing would be hampered by a specific Intent, but it wouldn't just be rule-less unlimited power (Sidious, is that you?).

I meant this.

If Dragons' shapeshifting abilities are biological like Kandra's one. The Dragon have to be really small to be able to become humans for mass conservation.

If Dragons' shapeshifting abilities are Cognitive based like Returneds' one. The Dragon form have to be at least similar to an human because the Cognitive could be manipulate only within a certain treeshold (to say a Returned can't become a werewolf).

As you said there is the possibility to them for tapping Investiture but again we know to little of Yolen's ecology to say something. But we never see a race able to tap investiture from the Spiritual at will so the Dragon's ability to emit energy is really doubtful to me (Unless we assume every Dragon is a magic user). Another point, if they were able to tap Investiture from Adonalsium...that Investiture is no more there. The Shards stole it.
 

You see how the Realmatic knowledge we have already limits the possibilities.

PS: Of course this is just a speculation of mine, but I want just to point into strictly limitation to Cosmere Dragon the Realmic Theory imposes

[Jondesu]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

I meant this.

If Dragons' shapeshifting abilities are biological like Kandra's one. The Dragon have to be really small to be able to become humans for mass conservation.

If Dragons' shapeshifting abilities are Cognitive based like Returneds' one. The Dragon form have to be at least similar to an human because the Cognitive could be manipulate only within a certain treeshold (to say a Returned can't become a werewolf).

As you said there is the possibility to them for tapping Investiture but again we know to little of Yolen's ecology to say something. But we never see a race able to tap investiture from the Spiritual at will so the Dragon's ability to emit energy is really doubtful to me (Unless we assume every Dragon is a magic user). Another point, if they were able to tap Investiture from Adonalsium...that Investiture is no more there. The Shards stole it.

I think there may be an additional possibility with the Cognitive transformation, working basically like Lightweaving. They may not technically turn into a human, but simply be able to appear like one. That's well within Realmatic limitations.

I do contest the last point I quoted. Adolnasium's Investiture isn't gone. We see evidence of that on First of the Sun, on Roshar, on Threnody (possibly). Some of the manifestations of Investiture have been "corrupted" or taken over by the Shards, but some appears to remain unchanged. I think there would still be an ability for the dragons to draw on that Investiture, though the manner (and amount) may have changed. I also think there's a decent chance that chunks of Adolnasium's power split off (much smaller than the Shards) like the extra bits that would be left over if you shattered a gemstone or a piece of glass. You wouldn't get 16 pieces that encompass the entirety of the original; there would be additional bits. I suspect there are some bits like that left over from Adolnasium, and probably more likely parts that were "in use" or Connected to a magic system already in place. Hoid's Yolish Lightweaving, for instance, still works, and presumably still just uses Adolnasium's Investiture.

[Weltall]

@Spoolofwhool Thanks for providing that quote, I hadn't seen it before and that makes it look far more likely that there's important context missing from the WoB as it's recorded on Theoryland and I agree that from that, it seems more likely now that Frost's immortality isn't inborn.

As for why I was 'pushing' for the other interpretation, like I said I didn't have that information and was trying to reconcile the book and a WoB that came out later, on the assumption the latter was more or less accurate as recorded.

6 hours ago, Jondesu said:

It's Brandon. Of course he'll surprise us. 

Yep. The day he stops surprising us the world will stop spinning, the sun will turn green and GRRM might finally be ready to think about beginning work on the next ASoIaF book. If he's not too busy.