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Pre-Shattering Magic


Confused

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This post speculates about magic on the Major Shardworlds before the Shattering. I think pre-Shattering magic gives insight into post-Shattering magic. I exclude Scadrial because it didn’t exist pre-Shattering.

Based on the following WoB, I believe the planets that became Shardworlds each incorporate “magic aspects to the setting” that allows mortals to “interact with nature.” Pre-Shattering, there were no “people with magic” like Mistborn and Surgebinders who could direct the magic’s effect.

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[T]he worlds were all created with a level of – a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is not necessarily ‘people with magic,’ it's you can interact with nature...

There is inherent investiture in every world created…You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that, but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren. You wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.  

Brandon thus confirms that Adonalsium’s Investiture is on every planet except Scadrial. Because this Investiture is “inherent,” it remains on each planet even after the Shattering. I believe Adonalsium’s Investiture is encoded into its planet’s Spiritual DNA, part of its soul just like the planet’s mountains and oceans are.

Shards later Invested to change these planets into Major Shardworlds. I theorize they Invested in the part of the planet that I believe already held Adonalsium’s Investiture: Roshar’s highstorms, Taldain’s oceans, Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation, and Sel’s ground. I discuss each Major Shardworld’s pre-Shattering magic separately below.

I think Adonalsium’s pre-existing magic constrained what the Shards could do. The Surgebinding and Fabrial magic systems, for example, are built atop Adonalsium’s pre-existing spren-based magic. IMO, this is what Brandon means when he says that magic systems result from the “interaction” of a Shard with its Shardworld – the Shards adapted their magic systems to their Shardworld as they found it.

Adonalsium’s effects permeate the cosmere. I believe we can deduce many of the elements of each Major Shardworld’s pre-Shattering magic by looking at the Shardworld’s current magic and applying a retrograde analysis – what are the Shards’ magic systems built on?

ROSHAR – Highstorm-Invested Magic

Roshar’s pre-Shattering “interaction with magic” system is spren-based. Khriss describes current Rosharan magic as “an expansion” of pre-Shattering magic (AU, Kindle, p. 535):

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[T]he bonding of spren to humans is merely an expansion of what already exists in the nature of the planet. Gargantuan crustaceans grow to incredible size without collapsing under their own weight…through symbiosis with spren. Certain animals obtain flight through similar means, and there is even a race of equines that – through the spren bond – have adapted to life on the planet and obtained a high enough level of self-awareness to nearly be named a sapient species.

Stormlight. I believe Adonalsium created and Invested Roshar’s highstorms. When Brandon says the highstorms began as “natural” meteorological events, I think he means Adonalsium’s Investiture of the highstorms is “natural.” Everything Adonalsium created is “natural” – meaning “in its original state.” I think Stormlight began solely as Adonalsium’s Investiture. Though Honor later added his Investiture to the highstorms (IMO), I believe Stormlight continues to hold Adonalsium’s Investiture. The pre-Shattering spren types still appear on Roshar.

Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar.” Stormlight “makes plants grow.” Native lifeforms could not exist without Stormlight. Many like the listeners and greatshells change form through spren symbiosis. Stormlight evaporates and disperses quickly. Brandon says that’s by design – part of Roshar’s natural ecosystem. He cites the amount of “free” Investiture on Roshar.  

Realmic Compression. Because Roshar is “heavily Invested,” Brandon says the Realms “compress” there. Bits of Spiritual Realm Investiture “leak” into the Cognitive Realm as splinters, meaning they become self-aware. These splinters in turn “leak” into the Physical Realm. Eshonai confirms such transformations occur during highstorms, when the listener’s “Rider of Storms” (later the humans’ Stormfather) appears. For this reason, I theorize Realmic compression precedes Honor’s Investiture of the highstorms.

Personification. Brandon’s above quote states that “minor spren…like lifespren” can exist on a world like pre-Shattering Roshar. IMO this statement confirms the listeners, the Aimians, and other native sapient beings personified natural phenomena before humans arrived, ascribing their own thoughts and feelings to such elements. Lifespren and other “minor spren” are the result.

Thought Becomes Reality. I theorize Realmic compression, personification and the availability of “free Investiture” cause Cognitive Realm splinters to become spren and gain access to the Physical Realm. Jasnah says spren are thought made living reality – “living ideas.” I believe the “touch and design” of this system was already in place when the Shards arrived.

TALDAIN – Ocean-Invested Magic

I theorize Adonalsium placed his Investiture in Taldain’s oceans. Darkside has magic, but it’s “not nearly as explosive and obvious as the magic on Dayside” where “most of the Investiture [is]…but there is some stuff going on [in Darkside].” We haven’t seen Darkside’s magic, so it’s difficult to speculate about it. Hints of Adonalsium’s Investiture come from an examination of Dayside’s magic.

1. Sand Masters’ dehydrate to perform their magic. I believe their body’s water is Sand Mastery’s Catalyst, the consumed substance that causes Autonomy’s power to Invest the Sand Master. Khriss’ Sand Mastery description IMO confirms this (AU, Taldain Essay, Kindle p. 369):

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The Investiture beats down from the sky, and is absorbed by a microflora that grows like a lichen on the surface of the sand…. [¶] Giving water to the tiny plant causes a chain reaction of sudden growth, energy, and Realmic transition. Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture…directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand.

2. Brandon says, “white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture…But it's not really using the magic, it’s just charging it with other Investiture (at [58:20]).” This statement, together with Khriss’, IMO confirms Sand Mastery (the “magic”) configures the sand at the Sand Master’s direction. But “white sand can be charged” with any Investiture, since that part of Sand Mastery is “not really using the magic.” The magic happens when Sand Masters use “the water from their own bodies…to control the sand” – drawing power “directly from the Spiritual Realm.” The pattern of other Major Shardworlds suggests if a Sand Master’s body water is Sand Mastery’s Catalyst, then that water holds Adonalsium’s Investiture.

3. Brandon adds in the cited WoB that “it would be very easy…to use Breath to fuel...Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that make it pretty easy.” I interpret this statement to refer to a Returned’s bond with its Divine Breath, like Vasher’s. Each Returned represents a human ideal, like Lightsong “the Brave.” A Returned whose ideal is “Protection” (a Windrunner’s Primary Divine Attribute) might be able to use Breath to Windrun. That’s the “oath” part.

I also think Brandon means the bond between a Returned and its Divine Breath and a Windrunner’s Nahel bond are similar. Both bonds allow mortals to process gaseous Investiture like Breath and Stormlight. The SLA Ars Arcana says that the “body focus” for Windrunners is “Inhalation,” though Khriss cautions us not to rely on “body focuses.”  

4. Brandon elsewhere says “Roshar is really the easiest place in the cosmere for [Vasher] to consistently get [Breath]. Taldain would not be bad either...” [Emphasis added.] IMO, Vasher could only get “easy” Breath equivalents on Taldain if he could absorb Taldain’s Investiture like he does Breath and Stormlight – through his lungs. That suggests there’s Invested water vapor on Taldain.

5. I theorize Adonalsium Invested Taldain’s oceans. When the sun “beats down” on Dayside, it causes the water, and Adonalsium’s Investiture, to evaporate and enter the atmosphere. From there, the natural Water Cycle (Evaporation-Condensation-Precipitation, etc.) circulates that Investiture through the ecosystem and into human lungs and stomachs. “Certain people” can then use that water to control the lichen’s reactions.

NALTHIS – Electromagnetic Radiation-Invested Magic

I theorize Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation holds Adonalsium’s Investiture. Endowment later Invested Nalthis’ electromagnetic spectrum and the precursor to Breath. I believe before Endowment’s Investiture of Nalthis, each Nalthian’s innate Investiture consisted of a single photon attached to their soul, a quantum of electromagnetic radiation. IMO, Endowment’s Investiture added its “life-giving” Mandate to that photon – the “Bio” in “BioChromatic” Breath.

1. Starting point: IMO simple Breath transfer to other people and objects doesn’t need Endowment’s power like Awakening does. Unlike Awakening, which IMO drains the Invested EMR that colored objects absorb, simple Breath transfer is end-neutral. A command and physical contact with the recipient suffices. That suggests the mechanism for Breath transfer pre-exists the Shattering.

2. I believe one Breath equals a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture, its smallest usable fragment. Souls “Heighten” as they accumulate more quanta of Breaths. The Heightenings are a “quantization” of Breaths – a “continuous set of values” (because of Breath variability) turned into a discrete set of values. This suggests a magic system related to quantum physics.

3. A photon is a quantum of light, the smallest usable unit of electromagnetic radiation. I believe Breath is a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture because Endowment Invests a quantum of Adonalsium’s Investiture – the photon attached to each person’s soul.

4. I theorize those photons are responsible for Breath transfer. Physical touching is necessary to close the “circuit” between the transferor and recipient of the Breaths. Breaths are unique among Investitures in that they automatically adjust to the Breath holder’s Identity even if the Breathholder isn’t from Nalthis. I speculate this ability relates to the Invested photon at Breath’s core. Photons are a cosmere-wide phenomenon and (presumably) everywhere the same. Movement of photons from person-to-person appears to be the “ambient magic” underlying Breath transfer.

5. I theorize Endowment Invests the Tears of Edgli, vivifying the flowers’ color, to mark the colored object as a source of Investiture. Color is reflected light, but an object absorbs the unreflected electromagnetic radiation. Draining “color” from an object to Awaken leaves the object looking gray (or white for the God Kings). I believe this happens because the Awakener has drained the object of Investiture. The color resembles the effects of a Shardblade slicing a human limb. IOW, I think Endowment vivified the Tears with saturated color both to mark them as repositories of Investiture and to restrict the reflected EMR (color) to a narrow spectrum. That leaves most of the Invested EMR available as Awakening’s Catalyst.

SEL – Ground-Invested Magic

I theorize Sel’s location-based magic grows from Adonalsium’s pre-Shattering ground-based magic. Just as Honor later Invested Roshar’s highstorms and Autonomy Invested Taldain’s oceans, I believe Dominion and Devotion later added their Investiture to Sel’s ground to create the one “Dor” magic system.

Evidence

Text. The main evidence is where the Shards chose to Invest. The Shards created Sel’s “one” magic system by using topographic features as their programmatic forms – features rooted in Sel’s ground.

I also point to Raoden’s completion of Aon Rao. As a Reod Elantrian, Raoden couldn’t draw any lasting Aons. Yet he could draw the chasm line to complete this Aon with a stick. I believe the ground contains the Investiture that “catalyzed” Aon Rao, infusing Elantris and Elantrians with the Dor. Otherwise, Raoden could simply have drawn a correctly shaped Aon Rao in the air with the same effect. IMO, the now Dor-infused, “mostly Spiritual” Elantrians can draw other Aons without further catalysis. The ground continues to catalyze Aon Rao, which continues to Dor-infuse Elantris so long as Aon Rao retains its shape.

Other textual evidence: Derethi prophesy Jaddeth will awake from his slumber “in the earth.” Uncontrolled Dor caused the chasm explosion. Arelenes use the phrase “Domi below.” Forgery soulstones are rocks. The only better soulstamp material is crystal. 

Khriss (in AU, “Sel Essay,” Kindle, p 18) says

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“the very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness, in a way unseen on other planets in the cosmere.”

This sounds like the ground is becoming the equivalent of a giant spren. Beware of Mother Sel….

Selish Lifeforms Absorb the Dor. I believe Sel’s ground Investiture acts like the Patji’s Eye ecosystem on First of the Sun. The Eye leaches Investiture into the ground. Patji’s Fingers absorb the Investiture through their root systems. Parasitic worms consume the Investiture in the Fingers’ fruit. Aviar eat the worms….

I think Sel’s ground Investiture likewise leaches into the soil and become part of the food chain. Sel’s lifeforms absorb this Investiture. As Khriss says above, “every being on Sel has some Spiritual connection to the Dor and Investiture.” (Note “being,” not “person.”) IMO Khriss describes the bones of Adonalsium’s “interaction with nature” system, the “magic aspects to [that system’s] setting.”

I believe Selish magic users consume the absorbed ground Investiture as the Catalyst for their Magic. Shai uses squid ink for her soulstamps. The Bloodsealer uses Shai’s blood. Dakhor monks transform their bones. As stated, I believe Raoden’s completion of Aon Rao relied on Sel’s ground Investiture, opening the pathway for the Dor to infuse Elantris and Elantrians.

Motion. Sel’s magic systems seem to require motion for activation. Sel’s Catalytic” magic systems rely on motion plus strict programmatic forms. Shai and the Bloodsealer twist their Investiture-infused stamps a half-turn to make them “take.” AonDor needs the movement of drawing Aons as much as the strict form itself: an imprecisely drawn Aon still pulls in the Dor, just imprecisely, as we see with Dilaf’s wife. I think Sel’s non-Catalytic systems use only motion: “ChayShan focuses on speeding up the motions and gaining power from them.

Edited by Confused
Heavily edited to reflect posters' comments and later-developed theory.
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You say non-elantrians can draw aons, but the aons have no magical effect.

In elantris (ch. 4) it is stated that non-elantrians cannot draw aons. Shaod plantains can trace the patterns in the air, but without chasm lines, the aons have no magical effect.

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I should start by saying that I read your previous post, but I do not agree with the division between Powers and Investiture. I will try to join that discussion there, but for lack of time I will only point out that there is no need so far to postulate that, but if you can direct me to the relevant WoB or piece of text from the books or from you I will be happy.

Regarding this theory,

16 hours ago, Confused said:

Shards later Invested to change Major Shardworlds, but they were constrained by Adonalsium’s pre-existing Investiture Magic.

Is this WoB the only evidence you have for this? I can not see in that WoB any confirmation of that. He said that there are differences, but I never saw an WoB where he states that whatever Adonalsium did before constrain the shards interaction with the world.

 

16 hours ago, Confused said:

We know more about Roshar’s pre-Shattering Investiture Magic than any other Shardworld. Khriss describes Rosharan magic as “an expansion” of pre-Shattering magic (AU, Kindle, p. 535):

[T]he bonding of spren to humans is merely an expansion of what already exists in the nature of the planet. Gargantuan crustaceans grow to incredible size without collapsing under their own weight…through symbiosis with spren. Certain animals obtain flight through similar means, and there is even a race of equines that – through the spren bond – have adapted to life on the planet and obtained a high enough level of self-awareness to nearly be named a sapient species.

Where is another example of, I think, over interpretation.  Khriss do not say that Rosharan magic is "an expansion" of pre-Shattering magic... It only says that the bonds to humans are similar to the ones that exist before... Maybe this bonds only start to exist the shattering. Do we know if Roshar was inhabited before the shattering? Do we know if any life exist outside Yolen before the shattering? What about humans? Did they exist elsewhere before?

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(On phon, away from books, so lack of quotes, might edit later)

I don't think humans existed before, as it is mentioned, I believe that in secret history, that humans are created after the humans on Yolen. However, I think that there is some debate on whether the listeners were around before the shattering, before being co-opted by the cosmeres grump uncle.

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On 3/16/2017 at 0:56 PM, Confused said:

Brandon has confirmed elements of pre-Shattering magic on Roshar, but nowhere else. I believe Darkside’s magical ecosystem also derives from Adonalsium’s Investiture: Taldain’s sun – the source of Autonomy’s Investiture – doesn’t reach Darkside.

Investiture resides within the spiritual realm, where location does not matter. So the sun cannot be a "source of Investiture" because that is not how Investiture works, IIRC.
If you or somebody else has something definitive that about the sun, feel free to tell me. But the biggest issues with the sun being a source is that Darksiders have their own unique abilities and if they don't get Investiture from the sun, where do they get it from?

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Nalthis – “Electromagnetic Radiation-Invested Magic

  Hide contents

I believe Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation holds Adonalsium’s Investiture. Endowment later Invested (i) the visible light portion of the electromagnetic spectrum (color); and (ii) Adonalsium’s “precursor” to Breath. Before Endowment’s Investiture of Nalthis, each Nalthian’s innate Investiture consisted of a single photon attached to their soul, a quantum of electromagnetic radiation. Endowment Investiture’s added its “life-giving” Mandate to that photon – the “Bio” in “BioChromatic” Breath.

1. Starting point: Breath Transfer to other people is Investiture Magic. It doesn’t require catalytic color like Awakening does, only a command and physical contact with the recipient. That suggests the mechanism for Breath Transfer pre-exists the Shattering, like Roshar’s spren-based Investiture Magic and Sel’s ground-based Investiture Magic do.

 

2. One Breath equals a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture, its smallest usable fragment. Souls “Heighten” as they accumulate more quanta of Breaths. The Heightenings are a “quantization” of Breaths – a “continuous set of values” (because of Breath variability) turned into a discrete set of values. This suggests a magic system related to quantum physics.

 

3. A photon is a quantum of light, the smallest usable unit of electromagnetic radiation. I believe Breath is a quantum of Endowment’s Investiture because Endowment Invests the photon already Invested in each person’s soul that holds a quantum of Adonalsium’s Investiture.

 

4. Those photons are responsible for Breath Transfer. Physical touching is necessary to close the “circuit” between the transferor and recipient of the Breaths. Breaths are unique among Investitures in that they automatically adjust to the Breathholder’s Identity even if the Breathholder isn’t from Nalthis. This ability may relate to the Invested photon at Breath’s core, since photons are a cosmere-wide phenomenon and (presumably) everywhere the same. Movement of photons from person-to-person appears to be the “ambient magic” underlying Breath Transfer.

 

5. Adonalsium’s pre-existing Investiture Magic constrained Endowment’s choices for her magic systems (Brandon’s “Shard-Shardworld interactions”). She grafted Breaths and the ability to transfer them onto that Investiture Magic system. Why did Endowment Invest the Tears of Edgli, vivifying the flowers’ color (literally “instilling life” to make the color more “vivid”)? The Roshar and Sel examples suggest she Invested the part of Nalthis that held Adonalsium’s Investiture, its electromagnetic radiation. Color is visible electromagnetic radiation. Endowment chose color because she wanted humans to use Adonalsium’s Investiture as Awakening’s “catalyst, and humans could not use what they could not see.

On mobile so I cannot get WoB's with any real speed. Here they are now.

1) Breath Transfer does require color. We have WoB that it uses your own color.

2) I suppose you could make this argument. I will say that the Heightenings are chosen because they give bonuses that top out at discrete values.

3) Why do you believe there is a "photon in each persons soul"?

4) Physical contact is not always required. The 9th Heightening gives Audible Command, allowing for people to awaken without physical contact. It stands to reason that they can transfer the breath from the awakened object back to them self via voice command too.

5) How do you consider the difference between a "catalyst" and a "focus"?


Mobile quoting is garbage, so This is for Sel and your "ground based evidence"

1) Per the AU Essay summary "At some point in human pre-history, the shards were Splintered and trapped in the Cognitive Realm." thus: The Dor was created by Odium. He was the one who splintered D&D and shoved them into the Cognitive Realm. (Still searching for a WoB that states this as a direct sentence, but this is good enough for now.)

2) Text: Shu-Keseg, and subsequently Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath do not predate the splintering of D&D, so they have no relevance to magic of pre-splintering times.

The light and power of the Dor exploded from the Aon, just as it does for every other Aon. The fact that the Aon was drawn on the ground does not equate to "Dor coming from the ground itself" The glowing lines of the Aons are energy of the Dor, so it should hold true no matter what orientation or medium the Aon is.

I’ve established several times in the book that the medium an Elantrian draws in–whether it be mud, the air, or in this case dirt–doesn’t matter. The form of the Aon is the important part. By putting a line in the proper place, Raoden creates a gate that allows the Dor to flow into Elantris and resume its intended purpose.

3) Brandon: I can counter your argument about the strength of Aons away from home base compared to ChayShan by adding an additional example because you brought up the "there is only one magic system" WoB. Dakhor.

We have one system. One based on Forms: the form of the Aon, shape of the movements, pattern of the Soulstamp, the shape of the Bones, they all fit. AonDor uses the Dor(obviously), Forgery uses the Dor, Dakhor uses the Dor, thus ChayShan also uses the Dor.(Shuden even glows, what more proof is needed at that point?)

Following the precedent, Soulstamps only really work in MaiPon, just like Aons and Elantris. Is Dakhor or ChayShan weaker away from home? We don't know, but it stands to reason that they would be because they are all of the same system. Aons are based on the shape of Arelon, Soulstamps are of MaiPon, Dakhor bones are old Fjordish characters[6], which (given the similarity to Aons being a language too) likely resemble some aspect of Fjordell. Is it a stretch to assume that ChayShan movements are a visual representation of the land of JinDo in some way?

4) Khriss: Given that Shards are Investiture and that the Dor is the Investiture of Shards, I think that either Khriss is oversimplifying the difference between the Dor and Investiture or you/we are interpreting what she is saying differently than what she meant.

5) Life absorbs the Dor: I'm not entirely sure I get what you are saying, but your argument that the Investiture permeates everything to the point of being part of the system seems like it could be used for Roshar as well. 

Secondly, John203 is exactly right that only Elantrians are able to draw Aons. Everyone else may carve, paint or otherwise jot them down, but they are incapable of drawing real Aons, regardless of whether or not they draw them right. Elantrians also have to want to draw the Aon (Intent) or else they are merely waving their finger around like anybody else. (I'd have to reread the chapter, but there is a reference[28] to ChayShan having the same restriction on who can use the magic, in this case bloodline and/or Intent)

Thirdly, the misdrawn Aon Rao is not what prevented Raoden from drawing functional Aons. The lack of a chasm line was the only restriction. There are multiple examples of Raoden drawing functional Aons before fixing the city. In Chapter 49 he draws a functioning fire Aon. In Chapter 55 he draws Aon Nae to study the palace grounds, and his Aon Shao disguise was in place from Chap 49 until Dilaf broke it in Chapter 56.

6) Motion: ChayShan isn't different, it requires the strict forms just like all the others. It merely repeats them over and over as the forms are not drawn in any permanent way, he draws them with his movements. (I feel like this is why it appears so powerful, as it is somewhat like multiple of the same Aon rather than just one)

As for requiring movement, there are a few "pseudo" counter examples. Aons drawn into plates. They needed movement once, but now all they need is touch and they work. You could still consider the acting of touching the plate as movement, so that's semantics.

Edited by The One Who Connects
Sources. Sources Everywhere.
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Thanks to you all for your responses. I will address specific comments in a bit. First, some background on this theory.

My first thread in the “Cosmere Magic” series presents the idea magic systems differ based on the source of their Investiture and their behavior. Some magic systems use only local Shardworld Investiture for their magic – like Feruchemy, the Old Magic, and the Aviar. After extensive debate on that thread, I now call that type of Investiture “Unique Investiture.” Unique Investiture is part of the Shardworld’s soul, built into its Spiritual DNA.

Other magic systems Connect with what I now call the Spiritual Realm’s “Raw Investiture.” These magic systems use “catalysts” to Connect with Raw Investiture, like Allomancy (metals), Awakening (color), Surgebinding (Stormlight), and Sand Mastery (body water) do. I theorize magic systems that Connect to Raw Investiture in the Spiritual Realm can achieve more spectacular magical effects than Unique Investiture by itself can achieve. These systems use Unique Investiture to create the means to tap into and use Raw Investiture.

Posters didn’t like the term “Powers of Creation” for that Spiritual Realm substance, though that term comes from text and WoBs. Calling it “Raw Investiture” instead (also from WoB) spotlights its “consistent” nature and how it converts (or “moves” or “filters”) from this “raw,” generalized form into Unique Investiture, matter and energy in the other Realms.

This thread looks at the magic of each Shardworld before the Shattering, when Brandon says catalytic magic systems didn’t exist. That means all pre-Shattering magic systems used what Brandon calls “inherent Investiture” – the magic built into each Shardworld. “What’s past is prologue” – I infer from the present what these systems looked like in the past. The points I make in the OP are informed speculation.

Except for Scadrial, this “inherent Investiture” comes from Adonalsium. The Shards didn’t yet exist. I believe the Shards subsequently created their catalytic magic systems on top of the pre-existing magic Adonalsium left on each Shardworld.

To your comments:

@john203: Thank you. I should have said non-Elantrians can make the same patterns as Aons, but they cannot draw actual Aons – splinters of Devotion. (Chapter 7, not Chapter 4.) The point is the same, though – without the Dor, the form of an Aon doesn’t become an Aon. Another example, as you point out, are the Aon-inscribed metal plates. They’re not “Aons” – splinters of Devotion – until the Dor infuses them and makes them Aons.

These examples support my theory: What I call “Unique Dor Investiture” catalyzes an Elantrian’s Connection to the Cognitive Realm’s “Raw Dor Investiture.” Unique Dor Investiture uses its magical energy to draw an Aon, like its ripping a hole into the Cognitive Realm in the shape of that Aon. Raw Dor Investiture flows through the Aon – which shapes and “focuses” it – to perform the desired magical effect. I explain this in more detail below.

@Mr. Staccato: Thanks for your kind words. I only wish others might agree with your new name for me….

@dgenio8: The relevant stuff is at the end of the cited WoB. Brandon compares Roshar with Scadrial. He says the Scadrian Shards could do some "goofy things," but the Rosharan Shards couldn't do those things because they didn't create Roshar. I interpret that to mean the Rosharan Shards were "constrained" by what they found on Roshar. The example of spren-based magic supports that interpretation.

Another WoB states that "the effects of Adonalsium permeate everything." That also supports the interpretation.

Your second point is an astute one. I was lazy and compressed sources here. Brandon describes pre-Shard Roshar in a few WoBs consistent with my interpretation of what Khriss says. I thought this was the easiest way to express the idea. These WoBs confirm the listeners are a pre-Shard people. Adonalsium created them, and they – and the ecosystem the listeners depend on – would have to exist on Roshar before the Shattering.

@The One Who Connects: You raise some excellent points. Thank you for editing the post to provide your support.

Raw Investiture resides solely in the Spiritual Realm. Unique Investiture exists in all three Realms, since it’s part of the Shardworld’s soul. Khriss says of Taldain,

For years we had assumed that our Shard, Autonomy, had Invested only Dayside, through the sunlight itself…. It is not as simple as this, though the mechanism is best explained under those assumptions. The Investiture beats down from the sky, and is absorbed by a microflora….

(AU, Taldain essay, Kindle p. 369.) Autonomy Invested Taldain’s larger sun, rather than Taldain itself. His/her Investiture is part of that sun’s soul, an example of Unique Investiture. Autonomy used his/her Raw Investiture to Invest the sun, thereby creating the sun’s Unique Investiture.

Dayside gets the benefits of Autonomy’s Unique Investiture, but Darkside doesn’t. I theorize Darksider’s abilities must come from Taldain’s inherent Investiture. Adonalsium is the source of Taldain’s inherent Investiture, since he created the planet.

Taldain is a good demonstration of my theory. That planet has two types of magic systems. One (Sand Mastery) allows the Master to use his body water to Connect with Raw Investiture and direct the growth of microflora to shape the sand. This is catalytic magic. The other system uses only Adonalsium’s Unique Investiture inherent in the planet. Its effects are less spectacular, more an “interaction with nature” and not “people with magic” like Sand Masters.

Nalthis:

1. Thank you for the WoB that humans transfer Breath using their “own color.” Any guesses what that means? To me, it sounds like the transferor uses his “own color” because he’s reduced his innate Investiture, which the recipient then gains. That reduces his “aura” and increases the recipient’s. That’s a natural effect of Heightening the recipient’s soul – an example of what I call “Investiture Magic” (magic that relies solely on Unique Investiture), and not “Creation Magic” (magic that uses Unique Investiture to tap into Raw Investiture).

2. I don’t think the Heightenings “top out.” The quality of Breath varies based on factors like age and health. It’s possible you need more Breaths than a Heightening’s top limit to achieve its benefits.

To me, everything about Nalthis’ magic screams “quantum physics” – from the Heightenings themselves, to Lightsong’s description of Nalthis’ Cognitive Realm subastral, to the nature of Breath Transfer and Awakening’s use of color. No other magic system is so measured or uses Investiture divided into specific units like Breaths.

3. The photon bit is the most speculative of all my speculations on pre-Shattering magic. It just seems to fit the quantum physics aspect of Nalthis’ magic.

There’s a metaphoric reason why “Endowment” doles out her Investiture in measureable units: she seeks a “Returned” on her “Investment.” Breaths are the currency unit to measure her “Returned.” If the Returned fail to inspire the faithful to “Invest” a weekly Breath in them, Endowment terminates her Investment – the Returned dies.

To me, her need to measure is why she chose Nalthis. Its pre-existing quantum-based inherent Investiture was capable of being measured.

The OP’s premise (supported by WoB) is that Shards did not remake their Shardworlds, they adapted to them (except for Scadrial). That’s what “Shard-Shardworld interactions” means. Thinking through the backward implications of Breaths in a quantum physics setting based on “BioChroma,” and accounting for Endowment’s Mandate, I came up with photons. The OP states why I think that makes sense.

4. You’re right, people can Awaken at the Ninth Heightening without physical contact. IIRC (and I may not), physical contact is always required for simple Breath Transfers.

5. Neither “focus” nor “catalyst” is a canonical word. There’s “general” agreement that some magic systems use “catalysts” like Stormlight, body water, metals, etc. There’s less agreement about the meaning of “focus.” I define it as a “nozzle” that restricts the flow of Raw Investiture into the magic user and “shapes” the magic user’s magical effects. In that WoB, Brandon identifies only two focuses: metals and Aons. This WoB says the same thing.

I define “catalyst” as the substance that Connects a magic user to Raw Investiture. On Scadrial, the metals serve as both a focus and a catalyst. On Sel, Aons are the focus and Unique Dor Investiture is the catalyst. Roshar’s Stormlight, Nalthis’ color, and Taldain’s body water are each catalysts, but none of them is a focus. The catalysts all share something the focuses don’t – the catalysts not only hold Shard Investiture; they also hold Adonalsium Investiture (except for Scadrial).

Sel:

1 - 2. I’ll try to answer your first two questions together. Khriss says “At this point, the bulk of the Investiture that made up the powers of Dominion and Devotion is trapped in the Cognitive Realm. Collectively, these powers…are called the Dor.” (AU, Kindle p. 17.) To this extent, we agree – Odium caused this to happen.

I call the Dor “powers” Raw Investiture. @Yata asserts in the theory’s first thread the mere “movement” of Raw Investiture into the Cognitive Realm turns Raw Investiture into Unique Investiture. I think we’re both right – the Dor is “hybrid” Investiture. Its location makes it Unique Investiture, but it still performs Raw Investiture’s function. The only difference (which I don’t mean to minimize) is catalytic magic system users Connect to this Investiture in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm. That causes “location-dependency.”

Adonalsium created Sel before Odium killed Dominion and Devotion (a semi-serious post). I posit Adonalsium Invested Sel’s ground with his inherent Investiture. The strongest text evidence is the Shard’s use of topographic features as the gateways to the Dor. This “one system” predates the Shards’ murder. Odium turned Sel into a magical “Tower of Babel,” where local landscapes became the local magic system’s language.

I conclude Shards on every Major Shardworld Invested the same “substance” Adonalsium Invested in. On Roshar, that’s highstorms. On Taldain, it’s the oceans (that Autonomy Invests through solar radiation). On Nalthis, it’s electromagnetic radiation. And on Sel, it must be the ground. Why else would the Shards have made topographic features their magical gateways?

Sel’s ground-based Unique Investiture is a mix of Adonalsium’s and the two Shards’ Investitures. Any magic user on Sel can use that ground-based mix of Investitures. In-world characters sometimes name this ground-based mix of Investitures the “Dor.” It’s a different “substance” than the Cognitive Realm “Investiture that made up the powers of Dominion and Devotion,” though it bears the same name. To distinguish them, I call one “Unique Dor Investiture” and the other “Raw Dor Investiture.”

One piece of evidence omitted from the OP: Khriss’ description of Selish Investiture (AU, Kindle, p. 18 (emphasis added)):

This overlap between language, location, and magic on the planet has become so integral to the system that subtle changes in one can have profound effects on how the Dor is accessed. Indeed, I believe that the very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness, in a way unseen on other planets in the cosmere….

I’ve begun to wonder if something greater is happening on Sel than we, at the universities of Sliverlight, have guessed. Something with origins lost in time.

Khriss ignores Adonalsium. His name comes up only five times in AU, and three of those refer to the “Shards of Adonalsium.” I believe the “something with origins lost in time” is Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture.

Sel’s ground – its heavily Invested “landscape” – continues to hold its Unique Investiture just like Roshar’s highstorms hold its Unique Investiture, etc. Khriss’ description of the landscape’s “growing self-awareness” sounds suspiciously like the Stormfather – maybe a “Mother Sel” with multiple personality disorder? Khriss’ observation foreshadows a significant Selish development, the “spren-ification” of Sel’s Unique Dor Investiture.

The OP identifies text references to ground-based Unique Dor Investiture. You reply I confuse cause with effect, since the quoted religions arose after the Shards’ deaths. I interpret the first sentence in Khriss’ quote to mean cause-and-effect on Sel entangle. Brandon as craftsman would not place unintended references to ground magic. Regardless, I think the evidence I discuss above is sufficient.

But you are 100% right on Aon Rao. Great point. Disregard that bit.

3. I think the Dakhor support my theory. There are strict hierarchies of Dakhor monks. The lower monk orders transform their bodies to increase their strength and speed. My first theory predicts those magical effects derive solely from a planet’s Unique Investiture. I re-state: anyone on Sel can use its Unique Investiture anywhere on Sel. It’s not location-dependent magic because people don’t need to Connect to Raw Dor Investiture.

Dilaf does appear to be Connected to Raw Dor Investiture. In one scene in Dakhor itself, Hrathen recalls Dilaf receiving a monk’s sacrifice to teleport Dilaf a short distance. Dilaf uses the monk’s Unique Dor Investiture – infused into the monk’s body and soul – to fuel his Connection to Raw Dor Investiture.  It’s possible some form of “Connection-switching” spell is inscribed on Dilaf’s bones and gives him the ability to use Dakhor Dor anywhere. That spell might work like Southern Scadrian medallions. (How Dilaf uses the Dor in Arelon probably deserves its own thread.)

I agree we have “one system” on Sel that uses Creation Magic, that taps into the Raw Dor Investiture in the Cognitive Realm. Sel’s Investiture Magic systems don’t tap into Raw Dor Investiture and can be used anywhere on Sel. Examples are ChayShan, Forton’s potion and the lower order Dakhor monks. These systems also seem to arise from specific locations – JinDo, Hrovell and Dakhor – as you mention. But they are not location-dependent.

So…Shuden does glow, but from Sel’s Unique Dor Investiture, not its Raw Dor Investiture. Stormlight-infused objects also glow when Invested, and Stormlight is clearly Unique Investiture. “Is it a stretch to assume that ChayShan movements are a visual representation of the land of JinDo in some way?” I think so. Brandon in this Annotation emphasizes the increased speed of the motions – and not the motions themselves – as the means of “gaining power from them.” Also, ChayShan’s dance forms move in three dimensions. What must JinDo look like to be so represented? Other “form” representations flatten their topographic features into two dimensions, like a topographic map does.

Is it even possible to see Raw Investiture in the Physical Realm? Once it hits the Physical Realm it’s already matter, energy and/or Unique Investiture. We do see the effects of Raw Investiture in the Physical Realm – steelpushing, windrunning, forgery, etc.

4. I’m uncertain what you’re saying here. The OP acknowledges that Khriss’ reference to “Dor and Investiture” is “interesting,” but “I don’t want to read too much into this phrasing.” I stand by my analysis of the rest of her statement.

5. Sel’s Unique Dor Investiture, Roshar’s Stormlight, and Taldain’s water all do “permeate everything,” including their planet’s lifeforms. That’s what Unique Investiture does – it’s part of a planet’s “nature.” Investiture Magic involves “interactions with nature.” In Sel’s case, Dor-infused organic tissue acts as the catalyst for its Creation Magic. The OP provides examples. Creation Magic on other planets uses that planet’s Unique Investiture as its catalyst.

I already discussed Aons inscribed on metallic plates and the misdrawn Aon Rao. (Excellent research throughout your post, btw.) Your other examples have a different cause. The misdrawn Aon Rao keeps closed the floodgates of Unique Dor Investiture that Aon Rao amplifies; but Unique Dor Investiture still presses against Raoden, still causes him headaches. The Shaod itself and Elantrian immortality shows how the Dor infuses even Reod Elantrians. They just don’t get enough of it.

Raoden’s experimentation with Aons causes “Doric” pressure and his headaches. Eventually, Raoden releases this pressure by writing the Aons you mention. Brandon describes this in the Elantris Annotations:

The reason that Raoden was subject to the Dor attacks was because he spent so much time practicing with the Aons. He began to make a bridge between this world and the Dor, and because of that, he gave the Dor a slight opening into his soul. I imagine that he isn’t the first one to suffer something like this during the ten years that Elantris has been fallen. Other Elantrians probably practiced with the Aons, and the Dor eventually destroyed them. When it was done, they simply became Hoed.

By finally using the Dor effectively, Raoden relieved a little bit of the pressure, letting the nearby buildup of the Dor (the one that he himself had created by practicing so much) rip through him and fuel that single Aon.

6. My comments on “motion” are more an observation than a conclusion. I thought it worthy of mention, an interesting avenue to explore since motion appears part of the actuating mechanics of all the Selish magic systems, whether they perform Investiture Magic or Creation Magic.

Again, the fact that ChayShan, Forton’s potion, and the lower order Dakhor monks can all make or use magic far from their birthplace is powerful evidence that this magic is different from Selish Creation Magic systems that Connect to the Cognitive Realm’s Raw Dor Investiture. These magics may relate to bloodlines, and hence place, but they are not location-dependent.

Semantics or not, the text does mention Elantrians “brushing” the plate. Maybe motion isn’t relevant – I’m not pushing this idea, just pointing it out. Regardless, touching the plate allows the Dor infusing an Elantrian to summon the Aon focus for light or heat or whatever: Unique Dor Investiture is the catalyst, and the Aon is the focus.

I hope I answered everyone’s questions. Thanks, everyone, for your interest!

Edited by Confused
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I'm gonna edit and delve deeper once I'm at home, but I'm making it clear now that I am disputing the claim that "focus" is not a canon term.

I scrolled through all 216 entries on Theoryland that contained the word "focus" and at least 4 of them use it the way we(I?) use it without Brandon correcting us. It's not definitive, since they were 2 RAFO's, a paraphrased "right track" and a "yeah kinda."

 

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Although I do not agree with your separation of Powers and Investiture, or do not correctly understand it, I'm starting to think you might have uncover something crucial here. I'm inclined now to agree that the magic systems we see today, at least the ones that can be directly linked to a Shard, were influenced by the original magic system designed by Adonalsium.

The reason for my change of heart is the fact that we have indication that the Shards did not design magic systems (I'm horrible at adding WoBs, but I'm sure there is one for this). This magic systems are the result of the interaction between the Shard and the world. Given that we also know that Adonalsium left different magic systems lying around in the Cosmere, it stand to logic that the difference between the planets was the planet Spirit Web, designed by Adonalsium, that then formed the original magic (Investiture Magic in your nomenclature).

I would like to link this with my post from yesterday. I wonder why all the Shards stayed in this dwarf galaxy. Maybe when Adonalsium created this planets he imbued them with a Spirit Web, and thus an Investiture Magic system that would attract specific Shards. My idea is that, as a very powerful being, he predicted he's own splintering and planed for it (as stated in the letter). What better way to minimize the potential problems of having Shards in the hands of mortals than to keep then in specific places? Maybe even predicting specific pairings?

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9 hours ago, Confused said:

To me, everything about Nalthis’ magic screams “quantum physics” – from the Heightenings themselves, to Lightsong’s description of Nalthis’ Cognitive Realm subastral, to the nature of Breath Transfer and Awakening’s use of color. No other magic system is so measured or uses Investiture divided into specific units like Breaths.

 

Just want to say that Breaths are far from a precise/specific unit. The fact that there's a "quality" to each Breath kind of removes much of the specificity. If varying numbers of Breath can provide the same amount amount of Investiture/energy to achieve a heightening then your unit is about as specific as a nose... generally similar from unit to unit but can wildly vary.

 

Actually, one of my main disappointments with the Warbreaker Ars Arcanum stem from this. Khriss is a scholar, she should have taken the opportunity to create a unit for average breath quality (ABQ from here on, that's what I always think of it as). Heck, Vasher is one of the legendary BioChromatic scholars. Him or his colleagues should have come up with it.

Edited by Knight Oblivion
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I agree with @Knight Oblivion that Breaths aren't an individual quanta of Investiture. For the same reason that there are different levels of quality with Breaths, and the best example of that being Divine Breaths. Another reason is that Breaths in an awakened object wear out over time so the item eventually runs down. Those aren't traits individual quanta would ever be able to express.

And you are still insisting that there is something important with Nalthis' radiation. That simply doesn't make sense from the text. It uses the properties in the object drained that give it color as fuel, not the light that is hitting it. The reason higher Heightenings drain it to white is that it more fully draws out the color giving properties until they are all gone and it reflects all light. The light provides evidence of what is being drained, it isn't the thing being drained itself. If it was just using the light, the object would go black, or to be more specific, it would be 'invisible' since there would be no light coming off it.

I agree that there are things inherent to the various Shardworlds that influence the foci of their planet, but I do not agree with all this stuff about Sel's ground being extra invested and such stuff. There just isn't any evidence for it. You are trying to add additional causes to things that are already understood well with existing mechanics. All magic on Sel comes from the Dor (barring the possibility of some entirely different magic left over from pre-Shattering). It all comes from the same system. The ground has nothing to do with it, geography and human constructs like borders have to do with it. The city of Elantris, for example, would function exactly the same if it was levitated a foot off the ground. Remove some of the buildings, however, and you are in trouble.

The planets matter to foci, yes. They do not matter as much to how individual systems manifest. That is the domain of Shards, and appears to still be somewhat random, if I remember correctly.

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8 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I agree with @Knight Oblivion that Breaths aren't an individual quanta of Investiture. For the same reason that there are different levels of quality with Breaths, and the best example of that being Divine Breaths. Another reason is that Breaths in an awakened object wear out over time so the item eventually runs down. Those aren't traits individual quanta would ever be able to express.

And you are still insisting that there is something important with Nalthis' radiation. That simply doesn't make sense from the text. It uses the properties in the object drained that give it color as fuel, not the light that is hitting it. The reason higher Heightenings drain it to white is that it more fully draws out the color giving properties until they are all gone and it reflects all light. The light provides evidence of what is being drained, it isn't the thing being drained itself. If it was just using the light, the object would go black, or to be more specific, it would be 'invisible' since there would be no light coming off it.

I agree that there are things inherent to the various Shardworlds that influence the foci of their planet, but I do not agree with all this stuff about Sel's ground being extra invested and such stuff. There just isn't any evidence for it. You are trying to add additional causes to things that are already understood well with existing mechanics. All magic on Sel comes from the Dor (barring the possibility of some entirely different magic left over from pre-Shattering). It all comes from the same system. The ground has nothing to do with it, geography and human constructs like borders have to do with it. The city of Elantris, for example, would function exactly the same if it was levitated a foot off the ground. Remove some of the buildings, however, and you are in trouble.

The planets matter to foci, yes. They do not matter as much to how individual systems manifest. That is the domain of Shards, and appears to still be somewhat random, if I remember correctly.

I think the reason he was talking about the ground is because we know that the land of sel is unusually invested, as stated in arcanum unbounded

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5 hours ago, The Flash said:

I think the reason he was talking about the ground is because we know that the land of sel is unusually invested, as stated in arcanum unbounded

I always took the "ground becoming heavily invested" to be a long-term side effect of the Dor being in the Cognitive Realm, metaphorically pressing the power into the land. It might even be an attempt to fix the release valve problem.(It's been unattended long enough that the Investiture should've gained sentience)

What matters is that if the ground becoming invested is because of the Dor, then it is post-shattering and not relevant to this thread anymore.

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@Knight Oblivion, we agree: Breath is variable. But lack of “precision” in measuring a “unit” is different from recognizing the “specific unit” exists. That’s why the OP says the Heightenings are a “quantization” of Breaths – they “restrict a variable quantity to discrete values rather than to a continuous set of values.” I also think you overstate Breath variability – Breaths differ at the edges, not in orders of magnitude. Even Divine Breaths translate into approximately 2,000 Breaths. Here’s what Khriss says in the Warbreaker Ars Arcanum:

Quote

The numbers given in the [Heightening} table above are only estimates, as very little is known about the upper Heightenings. Indeed, even for the lower levels, fewer or more Breaths may be required to achieve a given Heightening, depending on circumstances and the strength of the Breath.

@Djarskublar, what you say about color is true. I agree with everything you say except your conclusion. Color is how the human eye perceives sensations produced by the way an object reflects or emits light. The object possesses this property, not the light. I’ve not claimed there’s anything peculiar about color itself that makes it Awakening’s catalyst. Color is a human-interpreted perception of the reflected or emitted light.

 I HAVE claimed that Adonalsium Invested Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation. Objects not only reflect light, they also absorb it.  

Quote

If a material or matter absorbs light of certain wavelengths (or colors) of the spectrum, an observer will not see these colors in the reflected light. On the other hand, if certain wavelengths of colors are reflected from the material, an observer will see them and see the material in those colors.

Endowment added “color” to the Tears of Edgli as a portable marker of Adonalsium’s Investiture (held in the “sticky” dyes the Tears produce). The Tears’ absorption of other wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation causes them to continue to hold Adonalsium’s Investiture. Absorption is “the way in which the energy of a photon is taken up by matter…”

When an Awakener touches a colored object, the object turns gray (unless you’re a God King, in which case it turns white). A thread a few years back compares this color loss to what happens when a Shardblade severs a limb. The OP there concludes the colored “object's Spiritual Aspect” powers Awakening, rather than color.

This poster is “on the right track.” I think the object’s loss of Adonalsium’s Investiture changes its color to gray, just like what happens with Lifeless and limbs when a soul (a form of Investiture) severs. IOW, color marks an object as holding Adonalsium’s Investiture. When an Awakener drains that Investiture, the object turns gray because of that loss, not the loss of “color.”

@The One Who Connects, I believe Devotion and Dominion added their Investiture to the inherent Investiture Adonalsium left on Sel. Brandon’s OP statement that there’s “inherent investiture in every world created” is unequivocal. Where is Sel’s inherent Investiture, if not in the ground? Why would the Shards use topographic features as their magical “language” if the inherent Investiture were located elsewhere? They chose their magical language before they were killed (obviously). That means they installed their “one” magic system with its topographic language before the Dor became location-dependent. Not definitive, but pretty probative…

Consider how catalytic magic systems function. Every other Major Shardworld has “people with magic” who consume local Unique Investiture to tap into Raw Investiture and achieve their magical effects. The OP and my first follow up post give examples of the ground-based Unique Dor Investiture acting as a catalyst. If it’s not the catalyst on Sel, what is?

Edited by Confused
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11 hours ago, Confused said:

Why would the Shards use topographic features as their magical “language” if the inherent Investiture were located elsewhere? They chose their magical language before they were killed (obviously).

I don't think it's that obvious. If we had evidence that any of the known systems existed before D&D's Splintering, then I would agree with you. As it stands, I/we(not sure where majority stands anymore, this hasn't been discussed in ages) feel that magic that existed before they were Splintered was fairly different from how it is now, in more than just the different Investiture location and the region-locking.

11 hours ago, Confused said:

Every other Major Shardworld has “people with magic” who consume local Unique Investiture to tap into Raw Investiture and achieve their magical effects.

Scadrial - Metal is not Invested(God Metals are by definition exceptions), so there is no consumption of "unique" to tap into "raw," they simply use the focus to tap into Raw Investiture.

Sel - Elantrians are Invested by the Dor, which lets them make Aons. They are using the focus(in this case, made via raw (Dor power)) in order to get more Raw Investiture. Soulstamps can be made with simple, non-magical tools and access a small amount of Raw Investiture via the patterns/modifiers(just like Aons). ChayShan is more unknown, but fairly certain they don't "consume" anything in order to be magically buffed. Dakhor is the only one that might fit with your statement, as a few powers are fueled by the death of a person or people(Innate Investiture) but this is inherent in all living things, and by no means unique to the Shardworld.

Roshar - I assume people with bonded Spren count as "people with magic," so I'll ignore the Spren Bond for the moment. The source of Stormlight on Roshar is the Highstorms, and "the Stormlight in the Highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the Highstorm." Now that Honor's Cognitive Shadow has merged with the Stormfather, there's some room for discussion about Shardic Investiture or Adonalsium's, but before that happened it would've been only of Adonalsium. Interestingly, Stormlight in gems predated Honor's arrival. Per later posts in that thread, several elements predated, but Honor co-opted them. Surgebinding does not predate though.

Nalthis - On one hand, all known magic pertains to Breath in some way, which is most likely of Endowment, as Divine Breath are of Endowment, and function no different from normal breath for the Heightening system, and quite possibly in Awakening, so they should all be of Endowment. On the other hand, Spren and Seons are basically the same thing, so it's possible that breath was from Adonalsium's time.


Ok, so I reread your prior post, and I've got an argument and a question. (that aren't related)

Argument: Quoth you "Neither 'focus' nor 'catalyst' is a canonical word." I disagree, in part because we have used it in WoB questions and Brandon both understood and did not correct us. But mostly because of when we learned the Focus for Nalthis. We learned that the Focus for Nalthis was Commands from Chaos' post in 2011, from a discussion they had with Brandon in 2009. We have never been corrected or given a better term for Focus in the last 6-8 years. I feel like that is grounds for canonization in and of itself.
Question: What is the difference between "Unique Dor Investiture" and "Raw Dor Investiture?" You've somehow lost me with regards to the details.

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