Surgebinding - Magic Without Focus

[cometaryorbit]

I can't remember if Focus is actually a canonical term or not, so just in case, by Focus I mean "the thing that determines the effect of the Investiture".

Scadrial (Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy) - Metal

Sel (AonDor, Forgery, Bloodsealing, presumably ChayShan and Dakhor) - Symbols

Nalthis (Awakening) - Commands

Roshar's Focus is a much debated question. IMO, none of the answers quite fit.

Spren is probably the best option, since all Rosharan magic we've seen so far involves them, but spren are Investiture so I'm not sure if they can really qualify as a Focus.

Bonds is another common suggestion, but each Nahel bond (or bond to an Honorblade) grants two distinct Surges, so the bond by itself doesn't fully determine the effect of the Investiture, at least in Surgebinding (it may well do so in fabrial science and 'natural' spren bonds).

In fabrial science and Soulcasting, the ten Polestones act very much like a Focus. And there's a WOB that suggests they are:

Quote

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

ArsenoPyrite ()

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gems? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements—in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron)? Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

Brandon Sanderson

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the Mistborn world, emerald and heliodor can be very similar—but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic—it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

The comparison with metals as a 'key' would seem conclusive. But the other nine types of Surgebinding aren't dependent on gem type. This would seem to kill any 'gems as Focus' theory.

Except... Stormlight is the gaseous form of Investiture on Roshar. The mist is the gaseous form of Preservation's Investiture on Scadrial. When Vin was burning the mists, and when Vin-as-Preservation was feeding pure Investiture to Elend, they performed Allomancy without any actual metals.

I think all Surgebinding except Soulcasting (which is probably distinct since it's so complex, and thus needs the extra "guidance") is the equivalent of "mist burning" - using raw Investiture directly and thus bypassing the need for a Focus.

[Mr. Staccato]

I probably forgot about the concept of Focus somewhere around the time I started reading the later Mistborn releases, but reading this post has just snapped me back.

And I agree - Surgebinding in Roshar seems to be such a magnanimous system of magic that it's very very hard to pinpoint what actually fuels or focuses the magic into acting this way. But if you define focus as the commonality or what determines the shape and function of a particular manifestation of investiture, then do the specific Oaths the Radiants swear by count?

Every order of the Radiants do have their own seperate beliefs and as far as I can remember, don't they lose access to the surges when they break their pacts? Also, remember that it's the likelihood of a person swearing the oaths specific to an order that primarily attracts the spren that historically speaking is the one that should be affiliated to the order in question.

Or at least, that's my take on head-canon from all this.

Also it's true that the two surges thing per radiant type is confusing - but then again maybe it isn't. Maybe we're just looking at it in a very narrow perspective.

Have you ever read up on the Ten Arcanas of Mage: The Ascension? Each mage there has access to two specifc forms of power depending on what Tower claimed them, and their explanation for this in-universe is that the two magics aren't distinct, they're complimentary and to divide one from the other simply isn't conceivable.

It's a stretch but maybe the oaths are the focus and the spren's bond to the radiant the catalyst to the entire system. It's an unsatisfactory explanation I know and I wish I had more but that's all I got at the moment.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Mr. Staccato

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I can't remember if Focus is actually a canonical term or not, so just in case, by Focus I mean "the thing that determines the effect of the Investiture".

I'm quite positive that it is. One of the older threads(found it) has Chaos saying that Brandon directly told them the focus on Nalthis is Commands. It's pretty much why we even know that facet of information to begin with.

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Bonds is another common suggestion, but each Nahel bond (or bond to an Honorblade) grants two distinct Surges, so the bond by itself doesn't fully determine the effect of the Investiture, at least in Surgebinding

The Nahel Bond fills in a crack in the Spiritweb. This is a very important distinction, as the cracks in the Spiritweb aren't like the Metal's (molecular?) structure or the shape of the Aon. The Spiritweb shows what powers you can use. For example, the cracks in Breeze's spiritweb let him use A-Brass, but the pattern of brass itself determines what that power actually does. Bonds cannot be the focus in the way we currently understand it, as they work on a different level.

[Spoolofwhool]

We have a WoB recently that states that surgebinding is performed by drawing the investiture through a filter made from Honor and Cultivation's power, which seems to be a description of a focus in action. From what we know of a system comprised of the surgebinder, the spren they are bonded to is formed from Honor and Cultivation's power, making it likely in my opinion that spren are the foci on Roshar. 

It also lines up with what we know of fabrials, as they hold spren as well in the gems, which is where the stormlight is changed to produce effects. 

[Djarskublar]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We have a WoB recently that states that surgebinding is performed by drawing the investiture through a filter made from Honor and Cultivation's power, which seems to be a description of a focus in action. From what we know of a system comprised of the surgebinder, the spren they are bonded to is formed from Honor and Cultivation's power, making it likely in my opinion that spren are the foci on Roshar. 

It also lines up with what we know of fabrials, as they hold spren as well in the gems, which is where the stormlight is changed to produce effects. 

I haven't seen this one, could you link it? It sounds like maybe that filter is the Oathpact, and if it is, that could help explain why it bound Odium. It would filter (read: limit) the way his power works in the Rosharan system, and therefor trap him indirectly! I like this idea, but I'm clearly jumping the gun on this until I see exact wording.

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

I haven't seen this one, could you link it? It sounds like maybe that filter is the Oathpact, and if it is, that could help explain why it bound Odium. It would filter (read: limit) the way his power works in the Rosharan system, and therefor trap him indirectly! I like this idea, but I'm clearly jumping the gun on this until I see exact wording.

I believe @Spoolofwhool is referring to this one from the Boskone signing.

Quote

Q: Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin
B: So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.
Q: I was wondering how much-
 B: But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place

 

[Djarskublar]

Fair enough. Definitely jumping the gun then. It was still a cool idea, and I may look into it more. Thanks.

[+Extesian]

4 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair enough. Definitely jumping the gun then. It was still a cool idea, and I may look into it more. Thanks.

No worries. My understanding is that Honor alone provides the intent that enables a bond to be formed with spren who are then, as a combination (to varying extents) of Honor's and Cultivation's investiture, are the focus for the manipulation of different surges (forces). In other words spren are both investiture and the focus (but the investiture being drawn by the surgebinder is of course from Stormlight rather than from the spren itself).

I'm not great on the caonized terminology for this, and I haven't read the whole way through this thread, so forgive me if I've used the wrong terms or repeated/contradicted what others have said.

But I'm also curious whether the Oathpact fits into this. I feel that's more about Honor giving the Heralds direct access to His investiture (which was also outlined at the same signing) and the Oathpact was the rules Honor imposed to allow that direct access.

[Vecna]

2 hours ago, Extesian said:

No worries. My understanding is that Honor alone provides the intent that enables a bond to be formed with spren who are then, as a combination (to varying extents) of Honor's and Cultivation's investiture, are the focus for the manipulation of different surges (forces). In other words spren are both investiture and the focus (but the investiture being drawn by the surgebinder is of course from Stormlight rather than from the spren itself).

Given that Surgebinding was originally only possible with the Honourblades, they seem likely to me to be involved with the original Focus.  Then the Spren set out to replicate the effect (I forget exactly why, but presumably they thought it would be neat).

 

The fact Honour is involved means that this is all mediated through the lens of Bonds - you bond with the Honourblade, you bond a Spren, you make a bond between two things with Gravity, etc.  Bonds are the focus in my mind.

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Vecna said:

The fact Honour is involved means that this is all mediated through the lens of Bonds - you bond with the Honourblade, you bond a Spren, you make a bond between two things with Gravity, etc.  Bonds are the focus in my mind.

I understand the view, it's shared by many. But to my mind the bonding is what provides the innate investiture. To compare to Scadrial, heredity gives you allomancy or feruchemy; on roshar you don't get the ability to use investiture from birth, you get it from a bond. In Scadrial once you have innate investiture (the ability to use the magic system) you use metal as the focus for that investiture; on roshar once you have that ability (through the bond) you use the spren you are bonded with add the focus ie the way you use that investiture to create an effect.

i think the honorblades are simply a different system? That was all Honor, it was directly accessing his investiture and the focus was the particular Honorblade. When spren mimicked the Honorblades it created a new system that used the investiture of both Honor and Cultivation. And the spren mimicked the focus system from Honorblades. Like on Scadrial allomancy is of Preservation, hemalurgy of Ruin, but feruchemy is of both and a different system despite using the same focuses of allomancy but to different effect.

[Vecna]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

i think the honorblades are simply a different system? That was all Honor, it was directly accessing his investiture and the focus was the particular Honorblade. When spren mimicked the Honorblades it created a new system that used the investiture of both Honor and Cultivation. And the spren mimicked the focus system from Honorblades. Like on Scadrial allomancy is of Preservation, hemalurgy of Ruin, but feruchemy is of both and a different system despite using the same focuses of allomancy but to different effect.

I don't think that's quite right - because they produce the same effect.   Jezrien's Honourblade only granted Szeth the Surges of Gravitation and Adhesion - the same as an Honourspren grants a Windrunner.  To quote the Coppermind:

Quote

Syl is the first to explicitly state this power of Honorblades, mentioning that "...[the blade Szeth had wielded would] turn anyone into a Windrunner..."

 

If you want to use the Scadrial analogy, then I suppose it could be more like using Hemalurgy to gain Allomancy instead of burning Lerasium.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I understand the view, it's shared by many. But to my mind the bonding is what provides the innate investiture. To compare to Scadrial, heredity gives you allomancy or feruchemy; on roshar you don't get the ability to use investiture from birth, you get it from a bond. In Scadrial once you have innate investiture (the ability to use the magic system) you use metal as the focus for that investiture; on roshar once you have that ability (through the bond) you use the spren you are bonded with add the focus ie the way you use that investiture to create an effect.

i think the honorblades are simply a different system? That was all Honor, it was directly accessing his investiture and the focus was the particular Honorblade. When spren mimicked the Honorblades it created a new system that used the investiture of both Honor and Cultivation. And the spren mimicked the focus system from Honorblades. Like on Scadrial allomancy is of Preservation, hemalurgy of Ruin, but feruchemy is of both and a different system despite using the same focuses of allomancy but to different effect.

The focus for Scadrial is metal. All three systems use metal. The only time we see metal not being needed is when the mists are burned. 

If spren are the focus on Roshar, the Honorblades would have to bypass the focus like the mists do. I could see that argument being made before honor was splintered, when the Heralds had a direct line to honors investiture, but you can still bond an Honorblade and access the surges with no spren involved.

I also don't understand why spren as the focus here, would need to mimic something outside the system to create the magic system.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Calderis
Typo

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

I understand the view, it's shared by many. But to my mind the bonding is what provides the innate investiture. To compare to Scadrial, heredity gives you allomancy or feruchemy; on roshar you don't get the ability to use investiture from birth, you get it from a bond. In Scadrial once you have innate investiture (the ability to use the magic system) you use metal as the focus for that investiture; on roshar once you have that ability (through the bond) you use the spren you are bonded with add the focus ie the way you use that investiture to create an effect.

But Symbiotic relationships are generally bosted in Roshar.

If you Bond with a Seon (or Nightblood) you will recive new abilities from this while are you in Roshar.

So the Splinters or the bonds have to be much more than providers.

Bonds are an inner mechanic of the Cosmere...I could see the possibility for them to be a Focus

Edited March 14, 2017 by Yata

[cometaryorbit]

20 hours ago, Extesian said:

I believe @Spoolofwhool is referring to this one from the Boskone signing.

 

I think the Honor / Cultivation filter WOB posted above is talking about generic Cosmere mechanics manifesting in a specific way on Roshar because of its specific Shards. I don't think that "filter" is the same as a Focus.

17 hours ago, Extesian said:

I understand the view, it's shared by many. But to my mind the bonding is what provides the innate investiture. To compare to Scadrial, heredity gives you allomancy or feruchemy; on roshar you don't get the ability to use investiture from birth, you get it from a bond.

I agree. Each "major" Shardworld so far seems to have its own way of either getting innate Investiture, or "activating" innate Investiture you already have -- a way based on the Shard(s) there.

Scadrial - Allomancy is activated by Snapping (Preservation based); Hemalurgy is activated by killing someone and spiking someone else (Ruin based)

Nalthis - Awakening is gained by receiving Breaths (Endowment based)

Roshar - Surgebinding is gained by a bond (Honor based)

We don't know enough about how you become a candidate for the Shaod on Sel, or Sand Mastery on Taldain yet.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think the Honor / Cultivation filter WOB posted above is talking about generic Cosmere mechanics manifesting in a specific way on Roshar because of its specific Shards. I don't think that "filter" is the same as a Focus.

Based on the description of the mechanics surrounding the filter, I feel very strongly that it's describing the focus, as the mechanisms surrounding foci has been described very similarly. Note that how the power goes through the focus is how the Cosmere mechanics are manipulated in a manifestation of investiture. 

[Calderis]

@Spoolofwhool my main issue with the Spren theory is still the Honorblades. How does an element of the magic system, one that the Spren based the Nahel bond on, bypass the focus of the magic system?

Unless honor locked some Spren into the form of the swords, I don't see how they can fit. 

[Spoolofwhool]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Spoolofwhool my main issue with the Spren theory is still the Honorblades. How does an element of the magic system, one that the Spren based the Nahel bond on, bypass the focus of the magic system?

Unless honor locked some Spren into the form of the swords, I don't see how they can fit. 

My opinion is that Honor created the Honorblades as a hack of the magic, bypassing the normal mechanics for granting surgebinding. When the sprens began to bond and form surgebinders, they were imitating the result, not the process. They attempted, and succeeded at, bonding to humans in such a way that it granted them the ability hold stormlight, and to use that stormlight to empower themselves, in addition to binding a pair of surges to their will. How the Honorblades surgebind is non-relevant, that they do is what the spren imitated. 

[CaptainRyan]

Possible solution: the bond is the focus and the reason it grants two distinct powers is because each spren is linked both to Honor and to Cultivation. A Radiant/proto-Radiant draws in (relatively) raw Investiture through Stormlight and then focuses it using the bond which provides two options: the Honor result of the bond or the Cultivation result of the bond.

Along those lines, Honorblades are simply tools designed by both Honor and Cultivation - the bond made with them acts as the focus for the Investiture of the bonded wielder in the same manner as a spren bond would. (I am assuming you can bond an Honorblade in a similar fashion to a Shardblade as Szeth can obviously summon/dismiss the Honorblade he carried.)

Disclaimer: I know Syl claims to be an "Honorspren" but I think that simply means she identifies most directly with Honor but that she is still also composed, partially, of Cultivation. Please feel free to correct me if I am way off base.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

Along those lines, Honorblades are simply tools designed by both Honor and Cultivation

If we make the assumption that they were given to the Heralds as a part of the Oathpact, then not really.

Quote

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact.

As for bonding, its doable. I'm pretty sure there was a WoB that there is some sort of .. restrictions to it that the Heralds wouldn't have, but I can't find it

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Someone who is not himself or herself a Herald can indeed use one of the Honorblades.

 

[CaptainRyan]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

If we make the assumption that they were given to the Heralds as a part of the Oathpact, then not really.

Quote

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact.

This does seem to cast some doubt on my proposal but Cultivation did not necessarily need to be involved in the Oathpact for her to have been involved in the creation of the Honorblades, eh? If we assume the Honorblades were somehow directly connected to the Oathpact then it does make my theory less viable.

I am definitely not convinced of my own theory but there is definitely a mixture of Honor and Cultivation in the spren so I would not be surprised if Cultivation was more involved in the Honorblades/Heralds than we know. Then again, I could be 100% wrong haha. 

[Spoolofwhool]

I think there's a WoB which says the Honorblades are made from Honor's power.

[+Extesian]

49 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think there's a WoB which says the Honorblades are made from Honor's power.

Yeah it was the most recent signing

Quote

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?
A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.
Q: Like Vin and Elend?
A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

That pretty much settled that Honorblade surgebinding was all Honor I think.

They can be bonded

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped

I'm not sure about the restrictions but I think it's just because Honor is now splintered and can't power them directly, hence this WoB

Quote

INTERVIEW: Nov 29th, 2016

Old Firehouse Books-AU tour(Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Is Nalan using his original Honorblade, or did he bond a spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He's using his original Honorblade. But there's an asterisk here that will come up in Oathbringer

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Extesian

[CaptainRyan]

11 minutes ago, Extesian said:

56 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think there's a WoB which says the Honorblades are made from Honor's power.

Yeah it was the most recent signing

Quote

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?
A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.
Q: Like Vin and Elend?
A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

That pretty much settled that Honorblade surgebinding was all Honor I think.

Yeah, looks like it. I am going to add a follow-up question about this to my list and hope to see Brandon at a signing sometime to confirm. Thanks for the great WoBs and discussion!

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

That pretty much settled that Honorblade surgebinding was all Honor I think.

Actually also if Honor without help gave the Surgebinding to Heralds. This not imply Surgebinding is of Honor. For a Shard I suppose his really Easy to twist/mess with spiritweb (there is also an istance of Preservation giving Feruchemy to Terrismen).

Much more we have a WoB about Surgebinding as "manipulating the Surges under an H&C's filter" so Cultivation is at least part of the magic.

So unless we see the Heralds' Surgebinding to be different to a Radiants' one. We don't have reason to think Surgebinding is of Honor alone

[+Extesian]

35 minutes ago, Yata said:

Actually also if Honor without help gave the Surgebinding to Heralds. This not imply Surgebinding is of Honor. For a Shard I suppose his really Easy to twist/mess with spiritweb (there is also an istance of Preservation giving Feruchemy to Terrismen).

Much more we have a WoB about Surgebinding as "manipulating the Surges under an H&C's filter" so Cultivation is at least part of the magic.

So unless we see the Heralds' Surgebinding to be different to a Radiants' one. We don't have reason to think Surgebinding is of Honor alone

Interesting. So you're suggesting that the means to access Honorblade surgebinding, the thing that gives you the innate investiture, is all Honor, but the system is Honor and Cultivation? I must admit I assumed that Honorblade surgebinding was all Honor and that Nahel surgebinding is then the spren from Honor and Cultivation mimicking an Honor magic system with the combined investiture of both (and it feels consistent - Cultivation is about growth and the progression of oaths is exactly that, growth). So yeah i figured the two surgebinding systems actually are different, even if one copies the other's effects).

Unquestionably Nahel surgebinding us of both of course.

But yeah that was just my thoughts I'm very happy as always to be proven wrong or understand why a system that gives innate investiture would be of one Shard but the kinetic investiture would be of two. I haven't thought it through fully, I was just floating it