Why Ambition?

[Mr. Staccato]

So I don't know if this has already been addressed in a Q&A somewhere (humor me - I am likely never going to be able to attend any one of Brandon's signings for purposes I would really rather not get into) but was there a reason why, as was said before, "Ambition was the first on Odium's hit list?" Is there a specific reason - maybe that Rayse found Ambition's shard holder to be threatening - that he eventually went for him? I mean, it wasn't for reasons of proximity because from what had been said before, Odium only ever decided to hunt down Devotion and Dominion because he couldn't find Ambition - so there must be a specific why as to Odium looking for Ambition.

Even if the answers aren't there, it would still be fun to posit ideas as to why this was the case. So what do you think?

Edited March 10, 2017 by Mr. Staccato

[+Extesian]

Good question! Luckily we have a recent statement from Brandon!

Quote

ARGENT

I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time. So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

ARGENT

So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

BRANDON SANDERSON

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

ARGENT

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

So it was the nature of the Shard and the fact that Ambition is, understandably, a strong intent to rival Odium.

[dyring]

You mean ambition might be ambitious?

 

Looking at that, who else might be high on the list? Well, right now with Harmony having two shards I supposed Odium is somewhat concerned(I think I read some wob on that but cant find now?), but the intents of Harmony is unlikely to concern him if it wasent backed by 1/8 of Adonalsium instead of 1/16

We dont really know of any shard intents that are likely to be agressive or wanting to take control other then him do we? It would be possibly autonomy but they seem to get along based on what hints we have?

 

 

[+Extesian]

Yeah the most recent signing had this

Quote

Q: Are Odium and Harmony aware of each other, and will they ever directly come at each other?
A: They are aware of each other, and they are both frightened of the other one for different reasons. Or at least “wary of” perhaps is a better term

So I think Harmony is high on the hit list but because of his power probably not someone Odium is planning on going after immediately. Even if he escapes at the end of the first Stormlight arc.

Autonomy seems to play a very long game and I'm guessing is a big long term threat, but maybe my enemy's enemy principle is what keeps them from attacking each other.

[Weltall]

We have other WoB that Odium would be willing to work with other Shards provided he gets to be in charge and Brandon has implied this has already happened in the past. Given that we know Odium is afraid of Harmony because he's potentially strong enough to splinter him,  it's not too much of a stretch that Odium would call in help to take down his newest potential challenger. And some of what's going on in Era 2 Scadrial certainly looks like Autonomy's handiwork while others look like Odium's...

[DocHoliday]

As I'm aware of it, Bavadin is the shareholder that Rayse has teamed up with in the past.

[joesleepsalot]

On 3/10/2017 at 2:21 AM, Extesian said:

Good question! Luckily we have a recent statement from Brandon!

So it was the nature of the Shard and the fact that Ambition is, understandably, a strong intent to rival Odium.

So his fight with ambition landed him on roshar? Perhaps ambitions death throes? I wonder if pieces of ambition splintered outwards along odiums trajectory and also landed on roshar?? Or other planets? Why's he stuck on roshar?

Edited April 20, 2017 by joesleepsalot

[Yata]

8 hours ago, joesleepsalot said:

So his fight with ambition landed him on roshar? Perhaps ambitions death throes? I wonder if pieces of ambition splintered outwards along odiums trajectory and also landed on roshar?? Or other planets? Why's he stuck on roshar?

I don't think. Odium seems to arrive on Roshar from his own to take down Honor and Cultivation....The WoB seems suggest that Odium wanted Ambition dead to avoid a rival but his original plan was destroyed when he was trapped on Roshar. No explicit connections between the two events...Honestly if a weakened Odium arrived on Great Roshar System I imagine H&C would simply crush him

Edited April 20, 2017 by Yata

[Jondesu]

On 4/20/2017 at 7:11 AM, Yata said:

I don't think. Odium seems to arrive on Roshar from his own to take down Honor and Cultivation....The WoB seems suggest that Odium wanted Ambition dead to avoid a rival but his original plan was destroyed when he was trapped on Roshar. No explicit connections between the two events...Honestly if a weakened Odium arrived on Great Roshar System I imagine H&C would simply crush him

I dunno, that WoB does indicate to me that there could be something different going on.  Odium was going after Ambition, we know he found and mortally wounded him (or at least badly hurt, I don't remember how that WoB was phrased), but then his plan goes off track when he's trapped in Roshar?  Sounds like maybe he wasn't actually planning to go after H+C yet, but something forced him into it.  Did Honor not just trap Odium in the Roshar system, perhaps, but actually sacrifice himself to pull Odium there to save the rest of the Cosmere?  That would be Honorable, in a way, plus Tanavast's personality could likely still push through that type of Intent a bit (not doing something dishonorable probably, but certainly interpreting the idea of Honor a few different ways).

[Yata]

@Jondesu honestly I don't think, but I have not sure proof.

Honor and Cultivation were on GR System for a long time before Odium arrived there. Unless you are proposing they were there as a bait for him, I can't see how he could be forced to pass through Roshar.

[Jondesu]

8 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Jondesu honestly I don't think, but I have not sure proof.

Honor and Cultivation were on GR System for a long time before Odium arrived there. Unless you are proposing they were there as a bait for him, I can't see how he could be forced to pass through Roshar.

No, I'm thinking they went to Roshar and invested, before planning for Odium. Then, they discover what he's doing, and both or Honor alone acts to do something that forces Odium into the system, like being reeled in on a fishhook, and traps him there. I don't even know if that's possible, but I don't know that it isn't, and it's a fascinating concept to me.

[EC11]

On 4/22/2017 at 1:57 PM, Jondesu said:

No, I'm thinking they went to Roshar and invested, before planning for Odium. Then, they discover what he's doing, and both or Honor alone acts to do something that forces Odium into the system, like being reeled in on a fishhook, and traps him there. I don't even know if that's possible, but I don't know that it isn't, and it's a fascinating concept to me.

Well something in the nature of Ruin and Preservation's agreement bound both of them in a way (and it seems breaking it forced Preservation to damage himself fatally), and since Honor is partially bound up in the nature of making agreements, I think Odium's capture has something to do with an agreement of sorts. Something in the agreement binds Odium to the Greater Roshar system, and he knows breaking that agreement will severely weaken him, and so is stuck until he can find a way out.

As an aside, one of the reasons Odium may be so powerful is that unlike many shards he hasn't invested himself very much in any magic system, which perhaps gives him the brute force necessary to shatter other shards.

[Yata]

On 23/4/2017 at 9:46 PM, EC11 said:

Well something in the nature of Ruin and Preservation's agreement bound both of them in a way (and it seems breaking it forced Preservation to damage himself fatally), and since Honor is partially bound up in the nature of making agreements.

It was not breaking the agreement that damaged fatality Preservation (at least not directly). Preservation was damaged by Ruin's attack when He attack him to steal some of his power and to make the Prison.
Preservation was already weaker than Ruin and He manage to further diminish his power. It's not a surprise that Ruin manage to wound him deadly.

[EC11]

9 hours ago, Yata said:

It was not breaking the agreement that damaged fatality Preservation (at least not directly). Preservation was damaged by Ruin's attack when He attack him to steal some of his power and to make the Prison.
Preservation was already weaker than Ruin and He manage to further diminish his power. It's not a surprise that Ruin manage to wound him deadly.

Hmm I thought part of it had to do with breaking the deal which weakened Preservation. Or was Preservation weaker because he had put a bit of himself in humans?

[Yata]

28 minutes ago, EC11 said:

Hmm I thought part of it had to do with breaking the deal which weakened Preservation. Or was Preservation weaker because he had put a bit of himself in humans?

The sequence is:

1) Ruin & Preservation made a deal to craft stuff an life

2) Preservation wanted to create sentient life, Ruin didn't
3) Preservation placed the extra Investiture needed alone (Now Preservation is a bit weaker than Ruin)

4) Now Scadrial is complete, Ruin wanted to destroy it but Preservation had other plans

5) Preservation attacked Ruin and chunk from him some Investiture (an amount who will put the two at the same level again) as extra Preservation expends his own Mind to craft the cage for Ruin (the term cage/prison is quite wrong but it's better than call it an "automatic Counter to Ruin" I think)

5b) Ruin counterattacked Preservation and wound him badly (this wound is often defined as "lethal"...simply Preservation took thousands of years to die for it)

As you could see the bargain has nothing to do with the diminishing Preservation's Power or the outcome (at least nothing directly) of their fight.

[Yvainnie]

On 23. 4. 2017 at 9:46 PM, EC11 said:

Well something in the nature of Ruin and Preservation's agreement bound both of them in a way (and it seems breaking it forced Preservation to damage himself fatally), and since Honor is partially bound up in the nature of making agreements, I think Odium's capture has something to do with an agreement of sorts. Something in the agreement binds Odium to the Greater Roshar system, and he knows breaking that agreement will severely weaken him, and so is stuck until he can find a way out.

Agreement? This could be Oathpact? Why did Heralds go to Braize and fought?

Edited April 26, 2017 by Yvainnie

[EC11]

On 4/25/2017 at 1:32 PM, Yata said:

The sequence is:

1) Ruin & Preservation made a deal to craft stuff an life

2) Preservation wanted to create sentient life, Ruin didn't
3) Preservation placed the extra Investiture needed alone (Now Preservation is a bit weaker than Ruin)

4) Now Scadrial is complete, Ruin wanted to destroy it but Preservation had other plans

5) Preservation attacked Ruin and chunk from him some Investiture (an amount who will put the two at the same level again) as extra Preservation expends his own Mind to craft the cage for Ruin (the term cage/prison is quite wrong but it's better than call it an "automatic Counter to Ruin" I think)

5b) Ruin counterattacked Preservation and wound him badly (this wound is often defined as "lethal"...simply Preservation took thousands of years to die for it)

As you could see the bargain has nothing to do with the diminishing Preservation's Power or the outcome (at least nothing directly) of their fight.

That makes sense. I always had a hard time tracking the nature of the fight between the two gods and how it weakened one vs the other.