(Cosmere Spoilers) Thoughts on BoM re-read

[Steelheart]

So I just finished BoM a second time, and a couple of things came up;

1) The messenger from the Set (interestingly described by Suit as "their own Faceless Immortals) told Suit that he will "serve them in another Realm" before promptly blowing them both up.

Which begs the question - are the Set hiding out in the Cognitive Realm? Perhaps Suits' job will be to infiltrate the Silverlight elite...

2) Both Marasi and Wax note how quickly the Bands drain when used.... this strongly reminded me of Honorblades and how Szeth leaked Stormlight far faster than normal Knights (not sure, but I believe the Heralds leak even less than Knights). Could this point to the Bands being connected to one person in particular? (Yes, I know you'll say the whole "but it's made without Identity! That's the whole point!" True, but maybe Sovereign can use it more efficiently. similar to how an Honorblade can be used by anyone, but is more efficient/powerful when in the hands of its Herald)

[Spoolofwhool]

1) It could've been metaphorical.  Besides, if they want Suit to act as an agent in the cognitive realm, I would think that turning him into a cognitive shadow is a poor way to do so, since doing so usually ties the shadow to the world they are on. It would've been easier to just move him there physically through a perpendicularity. 

2) The Honorblades being inefficient also occurred with the Heralds. Besides, Wax was using a lot of power very quickly and it's not like we have a reference on something similar running down less quickly.

[Steelheart]

On 3/2/2017 at 4:29 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

1) It could've been metaphorical.  Besides, if they want Suit to act as an agent in the cognitive realm, I would think that turning him into a cognitive shadow is a poor way to do so, since doing so usually ties the shadow to the world they are on. It would've been easier to just move him there physically through a perpendicularity. 

2) The Honorblades being inefficient also occurred with the Heralds. Besides, Wax was using a lot of power very quickly and it's not like we have a reference on something similar running down less quickly.

 

1) Maybe, but they seem very keen on covering their tracks, and having public enemy number one mysteriously disappear from his cell doesn't really align with that. 

2) Do you have a source for the Heralds being inefficient? I read a recent WoB that the Honorblades allowed the Heralds to draw their power directly from Him (thus making them akin to Vin during her Ascension - pretty efficient if you ask me).

[Calderis]

17 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

 

2) Do you have a source for the Heralds being inefficient? I read a recent WoB that the Honorblades allowed the Heralds to draw their power directly from Him (thus making them akin to Vin during her Ascension - pretty efficient if you ask me).

I've seen the WoB he's referring to but can't find it. But what your talking about isn't efficiency. You don't need to be efficient when your source is limitless. The Honorblades use investiture at a faster rate than spren. Without a direct line to Honor their efficiency becomes relevant because their fuel is now limited. 

[Steelheart]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I've seen the WoB he's referring to but can't find it. But what your talking about isn't efficiency. You don't need to be efficient when your source is limitless. The Honorblades use investiture at a faster rate than spren. Without a direct line to Honor their efficiency becomes relevant because their fuel is now limited. 

 

....Good point

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Steelheart said:

1) Maybe, but they seem very keen on covering their tracks, and having public enemy number one mysteriously disappear from his cell doesn't really align with that. 

They wouldn't be able to worldhop him out of his cell without a perpendicularity anyways. My point was that if they wanted him to act as an agent in the cognitive realm, they would've had to have done so sooner. Killing him now and making him into a cognitive shadow would limit his options to only Scadrial, assuming they even have the power around to do so.

Edit:

2) Here's the WoB that the Honorblades are always inefficient. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Steelheart]

On 3/9/2017 at 11:17 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

They wouldn't be able to worldhop him out of his cell without a perpendicularity anyways. My point was that if they wanted him to act as an agent in the cognitive realm, they would've had to have done so sooner. Killing him now and making him into a cognitive shadow would limit his options to only Scadrial, assuming they even have the power around to do so.

Edit:

2) Here's the WoB that the Honorblades are always inefficient. 

 

hmmm I wonder why they're always inefficient...

[IAreNelson]

1 hour ago, Steelheart said:

hmmm I wonder why they're always inefficient...

I have no evidence for this idea but it's how I think it probably works.

I think of it that both spren and honorblades form a tunnel of sorts for surgebinding. These tunnels that channel stormlight into the various surges are not perfect however and have leaks in them. 

Spren can be there to stop the leaks (or at least the worst of them) and thus increase the efficiency of the surgebinding. Since honorblades don't have a spren as part of the surgebinding power they just have to deal with this imperfect tunnel.

So I think of it less as honorblades are inefficient and more as spren are more efficient. Again just the conclusion I came to with no real evidence so feel free to point out anything that doesn't make sense.

[Djarskublar]

3 hours ago, Steelheart said:

hmmm I wonder why they're always inefficient...

Why be efficient when the source is supposed to be limitless...

Besides that, it may be useful to the Heralds in some way to have a ton of Investiture coursing through them when they are Surgebinding. Extra Investiture interference and healing, especially considering that as far as I know, they don't get Plate. Plus, they are cognitive shadows, so maybe the extra Investiture is good for them, rather than dangerous. The Returned consume a lot of Investiture as well.

[Steelheart]

2 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Why be efficient when the source is supposed to be limitless...

Besides that, it may be useful to the Heralds in some way to have a ton of Investiture coursing through them when they are Surgebinding. Extra Investiture interference and healing, especially considering that as far as I know, they don't get Plate. Plus, they are cognitive shadows, so maybe the extra Investiture is good for them, rather than dangerous. The Returned consume a lot of Investiture as well.

 

Do you have a source on them being Cognitive Shadows?

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Steelheart said:

Do you have a source on them being Cognitive Shadows?

It was in the fifth or sixth Oathbringer update. I was the One Who reporter on the Shard so I could be sure.

It is a long post about the Cosmere's immortality. You will probably find fast (i am on mobile now and I can't do the research myself)

[Steelheart]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

It was in the fifth or sixth Oathbringer update. I was the One Who reporter on the Shard so I could be sure.

It is a long post about the Cosmere's immortality. You will probably find fast (i am on mobile now and I can't do the research myself)

 

It was Update 6 

[Spoolofwhool]

10 hours ago, Steelheart said:

hmmm I wonder why they're always inefficient...

The Honorblades consume stormlight. Why, I don't know, nor can I really imagine.

[Steelheart]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

The Honorblades consume stormlight. Why, I don't know, nor can I really imagine.

Consume....in the same way as Nightblood? Or do you mean in the same way as a KR?

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

Consume....in the same way as Nightblood? Or do you mean in the same way as a KR?

Per Syl:

Quote

"This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight.

- Words of Radiance

Sounds like it consuming it like part of the normal process, using it to fuel a process then releasing it back into the overall system.

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Per Syl:

Sounds like it consuming it like part of the normal process, using it to fuel a process then releasing it back into the overall system.

Hmm the following is my rough take on it, hopefully people can pick apart as appropriate. And the terminology as well, in case I've mixed up terms I'll describe them.

Honorblades basically provide temporary innate investiture (the ability to use surgebinding). Whereas with allomancy it is Lerasium that permanently rewrites sDNA by creating a huge connection to Preservation, Honorblades provide (as per recent WoB) temporary access to Honor which gives the ability to surgebind (the type of surgebinding dependent on which blade it is). Because it's a temporary connection it constantly requires investiture to maintain that connection, unlike Lerasium. Now that Honor is splintered that access requires Stormlight, and lots of it, whereas in the Heralds'days it was free-flowing. So Honorblade surgebinding requires both investiture to fuel the surge and also investiture to maintain the connection to Honor that gives the necessary innate investiture.

The difference with Nahel bonds is you directly bond with a particular splinter and that gives you the innate investiture you need to access surgebinding. Then all you need is a much smaller amount of investiture to manipulate the surges.

I suspect (with little evidence) that the Oathpact relates to Honor granting direct access to him and the condition of this was the Heralds being required to bind themselves to him (as that sort of power can obviously be misused). I also suspect that the Honorblades were keyed to the individual Heralds' identities and that when (most of them) broke the Oathpact this severed the identity, making the Honorblades unkeyed and enabling anyone to use them. But these two ideas are just ideas and probably off-topic.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Extesian

[Steelheart]

On 3/15/2017 at 7:51 PM, Extesian said:

Hmm the following is my rough take on it, hopefully people can pick apart as appropriate. And the terminology as well, in case I've mixed up terms I'll describe them.

Honorblades basically provide temporary innate investiture (the ability to use surgebinding). Whereas with allomancy it is Lerasium that permanently rewrites sDNA by creating a huge connection to Preservation, Honorblades provide (as per recent WoB) temporary access to Honor which gives the ability to surgebind (the type of surgebinding dependent on which blade it is). Because it's a temporary connection it constantly requires investiture to maintain that connection, unlike Lerasium. Now that Honor is splintered that access requires Stormlight, and lots of it, whereas in the Heralds'days it was free-flowing. So Honorblade surgebinding requires both investiture to fuel the surge and also investiture to maintain the connection to Honor that gives the necessary innate investiture.

The difference with Nahel bonds is you directly bond with a particular splinter and that gives you the innate investiture you need to access surgebinding. Then all you need is a much smaller amount of investiture to manipulate the surges.

I suspect (with little evidence) that the Oathpact relates to Honor granting direct access to him and the condition of this was the Heralds being required to bind themselves to him (as that sort of power can obviously be misused). I also suspect that the Honorblades were keyed to the individual Heralds' identities and that when (most of them) broke the Oathpact this severed the identity, making the Honorblades unkeyed and enabling anyone to use them. But these two ideas are just ideas and probably off-topic.

9

This actually makes sense to me (except the last part - I believe once something is keyed, it's permanent)

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Steelheart said:

This actually makes sense to me (except the last part - I believe once something is keyed, it's permanent)

This is untrue, Investiture become keyed and unkeyed all the time in the Cosmere

[Farnsworth]

You know, they could be the 

SH 

Spoiler

ire

 

[Steelheart]

On 3/20/2017 at 4:57 PM, Yata said:

This is untrue, Investiture become keyed and unkeyed all the time in the Cosmere

Can you give some examples? (To be clear, I'm referring to a persons sDNA being keyed to something)

[Spoolofwhool]

48 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

Can you give some examples? (To be clear, I'm referring to a persons sDNA being keyed to something)

Why are you referring to a person's sDNA being keyed to something when the original idea was about something being keyed to someone's sDNA? 

In any case, stormlight keys easily. When you're using shardplate the stormlight in the shardplate is keyed to you, which prevents other people, like surgebinders, from easily taking it away.

[+Extesian]

51 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

Can you give some examples? (To be clear, I'm referring to a persons sDNA being keyed to something)

Examples that come to mind.

A feruchemist filling a metalmind while having no identity

A shardblade having the bond severed from its KR and a gem allowing it to be unkeyed

Breath can be passed with changed identity (though yeah its not becoming unkeyed I guess)

None of them are perfect, they all involve hacks. But my suggestion was that the Heralds were bonded to the Honorblades and breaking the Oathpact severed that identity key. It's still just a thought but I don't feel it's inconsistent with general realmic theory. 

[Hawkido]

On 3/15/2017 at 6:51 PM, Extesian said:

I also suspect that the Honorblades were keyed to the individual Heralds' identities and that when (most of them) broke the Oathpact this severed the identity, making the Honorblades unkeyed and enabling anyone to use them. But these two ideas are just ideas and probably off-topic.

I wonder if this could be why the Shard Blade that Dalinar was carrying at the end of WoR (acquired from Taln) was just a shardblade for Dalinar.  Taln did not break his Oath.  Thus the Honor Blade wouldn't work for Dalinar.  But then again either Dalinar was nascent-stormlight-using to heal during that battle or the Honor Blade was working for him.  So, given these facts it either definitively proves or disproves your thoughts.  All we are missing is whether Dalinar used stormlight because he was nascent or because he was wielding an Honorblade.

[+Extesian]

4 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

I wonder if this could be why the Shard Blade that Dalinar was carrying at the end of WoR (acquired from Taln) was just a shardblade for Dalinar.  Taln did not break his Oath.  Thus the Honor Blade wouldn't work for Dalinar.  But then again either Dalinar was nascent-stormlight-using to heal during that battle or the Honor Blade was working for him.  So, given these facts it either definitively proves or disproves your thoughts.  All we are missing is whether Dalinar used stormlight because he was nascent or because he was wielding an Honorblade.

Not a bad thought but it's a different sword

Quote

QUESTION

Why does Taln's Honorblade scream for Dalinar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Check out the descriptions of the swords in book 1 and book 2. The hint is they’re not the same sword.

They were switched and he just had a normal (dead) Shardblade.

But yes my theory would be disproven if it turns out someone other than Taln can use his Honorblade. That part of the theory anyway.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Extesian

[Hawkido]

Just now, Extesian said:

Not a bad thought but it's a different sword

They were switched and he just had a normal (dead) Shardblade.

Damnation!  HOID, your RatFink!  That is yet another bit of investiture you stole.  He upgraded from a regular shardblade to an honorblade.  I missed that, thanks for pointing it out.  I completely forgot it screamed as he unbonded the blade.