Classification of Magic Systems

[Yata]

Ok there is something really weird here.

I can't write a detailed answer now (I am on mobile) but I Need you to answer some questions.

In your model:

- Can Powers become Investiture? (Obvious case, but for sake of clarity)

- Can Investiture become Powers?

- Could Powers exist outside the Spiritual Realm?

Before I leave, I Will add a couple of facts:

- Feruchemy Indeed needs to use some external source. If you store some of your Strenght for a while. Your Investiture is less Just for a while then return to the standard value. This mean now you have your Initial Investiture+the Pewtermind's charge.

- You can't argue using ignorant characters' quotes as proofs. Marasi and Wax don't know nothing of the Realmatic. And if the words are sinonimus. The use of One rather than the other could be dictate only by the discussion's context.

Again I will be unable to properly reply until I will return to home (at least 12-13 hours from now)

Edited March 13, 2017 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

16 hours ago, Confused said:

There are NO EXCEPTIONS to the theory.

Except for the glaring exception that the Dor is composed of powers of creation in the cognitive realm of course. You said also that the Dor began in the Cognitive Realm as explanation for the exception? Could you expand on that when it seems to have been indicated that it's in fact formed from the remnants of Devotion and Dominion pressed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium.

16 hours ago, Confused said:

You say “Feruchemy…allows the user to manipulate the Power of Creation.” Everything I’ve seen says Feruchemy’s Investiture is wholly internal. Where does Brandon say Feruchemy manipulates the Powers? Reference?

Here. It's interesting because you actually referenced this in the OP.

Quote

KAIMIPONO (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

[Source]

 

My thoughts on the matter, now that I've finally gotten around to slogging through the well-researched and well-presented write-up. I am far less opposed to the theory now that it no longer resides on the premise that the powers of creation are separate from investiture. I have some questions though. I'll admit some of these aren't me asking to contest it, but asking to push you into strengthening your points. 

Sel: You state that the magic system of Sel is Creation Magic, but then sub-define variations of it as Investiture Magic. This means then that it is possible for a magic system to be generally a Creation Magic, but then have sub-varieties which aren't? Seems complicated.

Nalthis: You say that passing breaths from one person to the next is Investiture Magic, which means you can't really change other people with it, which is in contrast to the strong implications that you can use awakening to modify someone's memories. Also, when you said that colour is being consumed to access the Powers for awakening, are you meaning that colour as a property is somehow being turned into investiture to draw upon Powers from somewhere else? How then does breath play into awakening? 

 

On 3/2/2017 at 3:29 PM, Confused said:

The Nightwatcher’s Old Magic changes mortal attributes. The mortal beneficiaries don’t touch the Powers and can’t direct what the Nightwatcher will do: Baxil says she gives the boon seeker what he deserves, not what he asks for.

Could the Nightwatcher not be accessing the Powers in order to change the people, therefore making Old Magic a Creation Magic? I don't see how the recipients not touching the Powers matters since it doesn't for other branches.  

 

Okay, initial thoughts. Thinking about this too hard is tiring and slightly painful.

[Djarskublar]

To clarify my points, and expound a bit on the PM I sent you, your theory is a valid one, for the most part, as long as you use a different interpretation of the WoBs that are basically standard. It just isn't correct because of those different interpretations. As I stated in my PM, and more to get it into the public thread so I don't sound quite as mean to everyone else than a real need to restate it, this is a self consistent theory and I like it. It just doesn't match the facts well.

In that WoB, when he talks about the Powers of Creation, he just means the vast quantities of Investiture that Shards have access to and that mortals can tap into. He calls them this because it is easier to understand that way, not because they are separate things. As I have stated before, with a large enough volume of Investiture, the limits on what you can do with it disappear. As we see with Wax in Bands, once he tapped enough stuff, he could see that everything was made of the same stuff-- Investiture. It was heavily implied, or outright stated (I don't remember which for certain, but probably implied), that he could have used his steelpushes on anything at that point, even things that aren't metal. He hadn't quite removed the shackles of the mortal frame yet, but he was getting reasonably close, so the limits of the magic were being loosed. If he had access to several orders of magnitude more Investiture like, say, the Well of Ascension, he could have truly done anything. The difference is that with normal Allomancy, the power is filtered through the metal to get a specific effect. With enough Investiture, that aspect of mortal magic is entirely removed, and you can do anything, such as move planets in orbit or convert some of your Investiture into new matter. i suppose you could call this sort of thing Creation Magic, and it isn't a terrible name for it, but it is just using vast amounts of Investiture so that the normal restrictions on magic no longer apply. It isn't separate from Investiture.

Quote

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Emphasis added, of course. This is what I am talking about. So when Vin burned the mists, it was so much Investiture that it destroyed her body and caused her to Ascend to Preservation. Without the mortal frame restricting her, she could do basically anything with the huge amount of Investiture that composes a Shard.

About the first part of the paragraph, when it says they tap the power of creation slightly, it just means they are channeling Investiture from the Shard of Preservation through themselves to get some effect. The question was about the bodies of Shards, and basically the question was 'do normal metals count as Shard bodies,' though that wasn't how it was worded at all. The answer was that normal metals aren't, even though the ones on Scadrial were created through Ruin's and Preservation's Investiture, but that Lerasium and Atium are parts of the bodies of them, just in solid form. There isn't really a difference in mechanics, though, they all just allow access to Preservation's power (Investiture).

[Confused]

@Yata, you asked three questions:

 

1. Can the Powers become Investiture? Yes. It happens all the time.

 

2. Can Investiture become the Powers? Unclear. I haven’t addressed Brandon’s “Cosmere Thermodynamics” laws yet. There is a WoB that appears to say “yes” to your question. But if Investiture can convert back into the Powers, it seems like the cosmere would become a perpetual motion machine in violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Powers could convert into new energy indefinitely, and never enter entropic equilibrium. I’m not a scientist, so I’ll leave others to debate this, but it seems like an issue.

 

3. Could the Powers exist outside the Spiritual Realm? “Yes,” since they exist in Sel’s Cognitive Realm. Aside from their location-dependency, the Powers there seem to work exactly as they do elsewhere. Under “normal” circumstances – when a Shard (Odium) doesn’t intervene – I think the answer under my model is “no.” The Powers cease to be the Powers once they become something else: matter, energy or other Investiture. At that point, the Powers “specialize.” They “differentiate” like embryonic cells. The Powers lose their capacity to create.

 

I disagree with you about Wax and Marasi’s Realmic “ignorance.” Wax didn't experience the Bands' power until AFTER he died and talked to Harmony. He learned about the cosmere and its Realms from an actual Shard who pointed things out to him. He'd certainly know the difference between normal Allomancy and Feruchemy compared to the Bands. And if the Bands were as powerful as the kandra believed, both Wax and Marasi's minds expanded commensurate with their power. That's why they each saw through matter and energy to Brandon's "one substance.” They would KNOW they were dealing with the Powers of Creation.

 

There’s also an "outside the book" reason to believe them. I think Brandon is not just an excellent storyteller, but an excellent writer. Craftsmen like Brandon don't waste lines. Everything has meaning. Thus, when Wax sees “mist,” “snow” and “wind” swirling around him (see the OP for the cite), I think Brandon INTENDED this to be the Investiture, matter and energy the excess Powers converted themselves into. That fits perfectly with my theory. Take another look at these BoM passages.

 

So, yes, I do believe "ignorant' Wax and Marasi. They know a lot.

 

@SpoolofWhool, the Dor in the Cognitive Realm is an “exception” Brandon “built in” that proves the general rule: Shard intervention (the Powers) can change anything. And I said in the OP the Dor began in the Spiritual Realm, not the Cognitive. Please don’t accuse me of things I didn’t say.

 

Your WoB (which I also quoted in my second post above) doesn’t say that Feruchemy “manipulates the Powers.” It’s just a description of the Metallic Arts as

 

“manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch to powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard….”

 

The second clause – “the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them” – modifies the first clause. It describes what “manifestations of this power in mortal form” means. Such manifestations are “how people’s physical forms interpret the use of the Shard.” Since Investiture is the “condensed essence of the godly powers,” using Investiture IS “touching and using” the powers of creation in that interpretive way. That is NOT the same thing as Feruchemy directing the raw Powers like Allomancy and the other catalytic magic systems do. IIRC, there are no textual instances of either Hemalurgy or Feruchemy “touching” and “using” the raw Powers directly. Only Allomancy.

 

I am glad you’re “far less opposed” to the theory now. That’s a start. It’s been tough slogging trying to persuade people. The earlier drafts of the theory you read always stated that post-Shattering the Powers are a form of Investiture. When Adonalsium Shattered, the Powers Invested the Vessels. The Powers became Investiture, part of “Creation.”

 

Sel: I don’t “sub-define variations” of Creation Magic as Investiture Magic. Dominion and Devotion’s original Creation Magic system has been fragmented. But systems like ChayShan and Forton’s potion were never part of Sel’s Creation Magic. They are separate and independent and do different things.

 

Nalthis: Where do I say “you can’t change other people” with Investiture Magic? The opposite is true. Investiture Magic works on the soul that is the object of the magic, and only on that soul. That soul may be your own (Feruchemy or ChayShan) or someone else’s (Forton’s potion or Breath Transfer). Breath Transfer “heightens” the recipient’s senses, etc. The recipient is the magic’s “object.” That why Breath Transfer is Investiture Magic. The transferor doesn’t tap the Powers for this magical transaction.

 

You ask whether “colour as a property is somehow being turned into investiture to draw upon Powers from somewhere else.” The answer is “close but not quite.” (“You’re on the right track?”) The next two topics of my Cosmere Magic Theory – “Pre-Shattering Magic” and “The Structure of Catalytic Magic Systems” – will address this. Please excuse me if I don’t discuss it here. I can PM you if you can’t wait.

 

Breath is necessary for Awakening. The Awakener must move these fragments of Endowment’s Investiture into the target. Draining color draws down the Powers from the Spiritual Realm to animate the object holding the Breaths, but color is not “turned into Investiture.”

 

Nightwatcher: I think some form of the Old Magic predates the Shards’ Investiture of Roshar. That in itself suggests the Old Magic is Investiture Magic, since mortals could not access the Powers pre-Shattering.

 

But the main point is, look from the perspective of the soul that is the magic’s object. Mortals who visit the Nightwatcher don’t touch the Powers, don’t command the Powers, and don’t command the Nightwatcher. I also think the Nightwatcher herself doesn’t touch the Powers. Aviar don’t touch the Powers – they become Invested through the Patji perpendicularity ecosystem. Aviar change mortal souls by installing a Cognitive bond, just like Radiantspren do. Aviar, Radiantspren and the Nightwatcher all graft Investiture onto the mortal soul without using the Powers. Each such grafting is Investiture Magic.

 

@Djarskublar, thank you for acknowledging the theory’s “self-consistency.” We still disagree on the interpretation of the cited WoBs.

  

I don’t know how you come by your interpretation of the 2008 WoB. It does not equate the Powers with massive amounts of Investiture. You’re reading that into the WoB because you feel “it is easier to understand that way.”

 

You say, “when [Brandon] talks about the Powers of Creation, he just means the vast quantities of Investiture that Shards have access to and that mortals can tap into.” Exactly! The Powers ARE the “vast quantities of Investiture that Shards have access to” – undifferentiated Investiture that has not yet been Invested anywhere. The Shards are “mostly Spiritual” for this reason.

 

I believe there are two types of Spiritual Realm Investiture. The first type is what I call “Spiritweb Investiture.” It’s the material that comprises souls and Connections. Spiritweb Investiture defines “Creation,” which is the sum of all Spiritwebs and their corresponding aspects.

 

The Powers are the second type of Spiritual Realm Investiture. They have not yet been folded into Creation. When directed, the Powers create new matter, energy and Investiture.

 

Khriss says of Allomancy, “The metal is a catalyst…that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.” (BoM Ars Arcanum, Kindle p. 396, emphasis added.) “An Investiture” causes the Powers to flow into the Allomancer through the metals, Investing him or her. The Allomancer then uses the Powers to perform Creation Magic.

 

The Investiture process is the same regardless of the amount of the Powers the Allomancer summons. Normal Allomancy “taps into the powers of creation just slightly.” Vin’s use of the mists as “super-fuel” causes the Powers to cascade through her, “ripping troughs” and vaporizing her. The Bands’ Investiture of Wax and Marasi is somewhere in between. In each case, the Powers Invest the Allomancer to the extent of the Allomancer’s available “fuel.”

 

*   *   *   *   *   *   *

 

Phew! Lots of questions… Thanks for your continued interest!

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Confused

[Djarskublar]

8 hours ago, Confused said:

When Adonalsium Shattered, the Powers Invested the Vessels. The Powers became Investiture, part of “Creation.”

8 hours ago, Confused said:

The Powers ARE the “vast quantities of Investiture that Shards have access to” – undifferentiated Investiture that has not yet been Invested anywhere.

 

8 hours ago, Confused said:

Can the Powers become Investiture? Yes. It happens all the time.

... This is my main problem. I can accept that you like a wildly different interpretation than the standard understanding. It just looks so inconsistent. If what you say is true, then a fair portion falls into place, yes, but you seem to be contradicting yourself here. I guess this conflicts with my previous statement that it is self-consistent, but I don't see the two as entirely incompatible, since I may just be misunderstanding here. How can the Powers "become Investiture" when they are already 'vast quantities of Investiture that Shards have access to?'

One moment, it seems that the 'Powers' are something separate from the 3 Realms, but the next it is just the Investiture the Shards hold within the 3 Realms. I still don't see why these Powers need to be differentiated from the Shards...

And you say that the Investiture that the Shards hold is undifferentiated and unInvested. I would wholly disagree with that, independent of any of your other points. You even said so yourself-- "the Powers Invested the Vessels." Besides that, they are differentiated since they are colored by an Intent. Unless you require them to be differentiated by being made physical, which is ludicrous (note that manifestations like the mists or shardpools count as physical). The Spiritual Realm is made of Connections. Everybody has some Connection to their local Shard and to everything and everyone that they have ever seen/known. Some of those Connections are incredibly weak, to the point of being moot, but they technically exist. Your soul is the sum of nature/nurture. By extension, this means the Shards are Connected to everyone in their care, and at least have some Connection to things on Yolen at the very least.

Basically, either you have made a mistake, or you need to clarify this. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I'm not getting it, since I haven't truly understood yet.

[Blightsong]

I like the theory but the below WoB is the most contradictory one I've seen. Really good work here, I like the revisions you've made to the theory since when you first pm'ed me about it.

 

Question 1: Does investiture have a consistent form (regardless of magic system and its Physical form) in one of the other realms?

Brandon: It's consistent in the Spiritual Realm

[Yata]

Again Confused I like the Theory's concept....But I see it deeply wrong.

And in a certain degree is frustrating to argue about, you built the whole theory from a (possible irrelevant) Brandon's semantics (powers and investiture as different concepts instead of the same). You also played with the "Powers are a subset of Investiture" to accomodate every WoB to your need. There are still a couple of WoB who disagree with you (the Feruchemy one for example) but you simply mark him as "nah Brandon didn't intend that".

Now returning to the actual topic's argument (I will use "-->" to indicate a trasformation from a type to another)

- IF Powers-->Investiture and Investiture-->Powers your theory has no sense. If this two are interchangable twere are no sense to specific a set of rules and limitations for both of them.

- If Powes-->Investiture alone, you need to explain me how it's possible for Preservation to regain his "powers" once he expends in Allomancy. Preservation's Power is explicity used and turned into matter/energy so for your model it could be recovered only as Investiture.
The same thing is true for the Dor, The Elantrians have to diminish the amount of Dor with their AonDor (also the others Selish Magic Users, but Elantrian have the highest Dor's output.

As usual I hope you don't find my aswers offensive, but honestly I can't honestly see how your model could work with the informations we have

[Confused]

Yata, I asked you to review an early draft of the full theory because I respect your opinion. But I feel you (and others) are the ones arguing “semantics.” You’re not looking at the “Big Picture.”

There is “existence,” that thing we call the cosmere and its Realms. Agree? “Existence” has three components – matter, energy, and some magical substance we call “Investiture.” Agree? Unlike matter and energy, this “Investiture” is unique to each Shardworld. People from other Shardworlds must “hack” the unique local Investiture to use it. Agree?

There is also a potential for more “existence,” some magical substance that can convert into more matter or energy or unique Investitures. Agree? Unlike the unique local Investitures, this magical substance can do anything – enough of it can move worlds. No matter where you are, this substance is the same – “consistent” – and can be reached from anywhere (except for the Dor). Agree? I believe the cosmere’s term for this consistent magical substance that can move worlds is the “Powers of Creation.” (You don’t have to agree with that. Call this magic anything you want.)

But whatever you call this magic, how can you say that it is functionally identical to the unique Investitures of each Shardworld? If you’re not persuaded by the several dozen WoBs and textual passages I cite to support the theory, explain these two:

“The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”

“The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

The “powers” are NOT “related to the Shards.” How much clearer can that be? Local Shardworld Investiture (the Shard’s “role”) provides the platform by which magic users can “get the powers.” THEY ARE NOT THE POWERS THEMSELVES.

“Small” picture, might there be magic systems I consider “Investiture Magic” (like Feruchemy) that turn out to actually use the Powers? Sure (although I don’t think so). But that just means I mis-categorized that system. It doesn’t make the classification “deeply wrong.”

What I call the “catalytic magic systems” – the ones that require consumption of a catalyst – are empirically different in scope and effect than the non-catalytic systems. Brandon makes clear that these catalytic systems – “like Allomancy and Surgebinding” – didn’t exist before the Shattering. You really think there’s no functional difference between “Investiture” and the “Powers” by whatever name you choose to call them?

Your specific objections [edited for clarity]:

“If Powers [can convert into] Investiture, and Investiture [can convert into] Powers, your theory has no sense. If this two are interchangeable, there are no sense to specific a set of rules and limitations for both of them.”

This is your statement, not mine – I don’t believe Investiture can convert into the Powers. Even if these two magical substances were fully interconvertible, each would still retain its unique properties while it was in that state. This is no different than Investiture, matter and energy being fully interconvertible, yet each retaining its unique properties. I address below the “cosmere conservation” implications of this, in response to your other question.

“If Powers [can convert into] Investiture alone, you need to explain [to] me how it's possible for Preservation to regain his ‘powers’ once he expends in Allomancy. Preservation's Power is explicitly used and turned into matter/energy so for your model it could be recovered only as Investiture.

“The same thing is true for the Dor, The Elantrians have to diminish the amount of Dor with their AonDor (also the others Selish Magic Users), but Elantrians have the highest Dor output.”

You’re addressing issues I wanted to defer to a later post. Oh, well…. Short answer: It’s NOT possible to recover the Powers once they’ve been used. Using the Powers creates something else – new matter, energy, or Investiture that can convert into each other but not back into the Powers.

Disclaimer: I don’t believe this is a significant point for the Cosmere Magic Theory. Even if “reconversion” into the Powers is possible, it just makes the Powers infinitely available. They’re still the Powers, with their own magical function. I’m not a scientist, engineer or mathematician, so please excuse my tortured understanding of thermodynamics.

Brandon’s “Cosmere Conservation Law” states “Investiture cannot be created or destroyed. It follows its own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.” This means the sum of all matter, energy and Investiture (including the Powers) is constant. These elements may change form, but the total amount of the “one substance” in the cosmere doesn’t change.

The cosmere can thus obey its Conservation Law regardless of which elements at that moment comprise the cosmere. That raises your question: Can matter, energy and Investiture convert back into the Powers or only into each other? Are the Powers a renewable resource or a dwindling one?

In 2012, Master_Moridin asked Brandon, “Why does Preservation fueling Allomancy not weaken Preservation compared to Ruin?” Brandon answered, “Because the power, once used, returns to him – much as water, after passing over a turbine, continues on in its system.”

This statement seems contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If elements of “Creation” (the sum of all Spiritwebs and their corresponding aspects) can re-convert into the Powers – “return to [Preservation]” – the Powers can create more energy. The cosmere in this scenario becomes a perpetual motion machine and can never obtain entropic equilibrium.  

The alternative is that matter, energy and Investiture, once created, do NOT convert back into the Powers. The Powers are the cosmere’s raw material – they don’t renew. Instead, matter, energy and Investiture only recycle into one another. The Cosmere Conservation Law still applies in this scenario: Creation grows as the Powers diminish.

Does that help? Don’t get tripped up on the words “Powers” and “Investiture.” Think of their meanings in the “Big Picture” context.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Confused

[Weltall]

41 minutes ago, Confused said:

But whatever you call this magic, how can you say that it is functionally identical to the unique Investitures of each Shardworld? If you’re not persuaded by the several dozen WoBs and textual passages I cite to support the theory, explain these two:

“The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”

“The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

The “powers” are NOT “related to the Shards.” How much clearer can that be? Local Shardworld Investiture (the Shard’s “role”) provides the platform by which magic users can “get the powers.” THEY ARE NOT THE POWERS THEMSELVES

You're trying to put your definition of powers in Brandon's mouth and assume that he means the same thing you do when there's no indication that's the case. What he's talking about in both those instances is where a manifestation of Investiture appears to act in a way that doesn't fit the Intent of the Shard whose power the individual is drawing on. Note too that one of those WoBs is over eight years old and dates to a time when the only works we had in the Cosmere were Elantris and Era 1 Mistborn.

When he talks about getting power, he was asked about burning atium. As he's said repeatedly, the metals are a key that shapes Preservation's power but they aren't actually the powers themselves. That's a far more obvious interpretation than trying to establish a difference between 'Power' and 'Investiture' which Brandon has never once established, rather he refers to all the different manifestations of Shardic power as Investiture.

And in the second WoB you cite, the person was trying to figure out how things like Steelpushing represent the idea of 'Preservation' and Brandon explained that the Intent of a Shard is related to how you get access to the magic in the first place but has no real influence on what you can do with the power once you're able to tap into it. In other words, you can use Allomancy (Preservation's power) to do things that aren't in tune with the Intent of the Shard, don't have to act autonomously whenever you're Mastering sand, you can blast things with Aon Daa without needing any devotional attachments... Actually Brandon is pretty much saying the opposite of your point in both of the WoBs you're citing, noting that the Shards can fuel all sorts of interactions in the one (reinforcing the actual point he was making that Intent=/=how the power must manifest) and in the other by pointing out that what could be done with one Shard's power could be done with another, just not as easily.

[Yata]

18 hours ago, Confused said:

There is also a potential for more “existence,” some magical substance that can convert into more matter or energy or unique Investitures. Agree? Unlike the unique local Investitures, this magical substance can do anything – enough of it can move worlds. No matter where you are, this substance is the same – “consistent” – and can be reached from anywhere (except for the Dor). Agree? I believe the cosmere’s term for this consistent magical substance that can move worlds is the “Powers of Creation.” (You don’t have to agree with that. Call this magic anything you want.)

But whatever you call this magic, how can you say that it is functionally identical to the unique Investitures of each Shardworld? If you’re not persuaded by the several dozen WoBs and textual passages I cite to support the theory, explain these two:

“The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”

“The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

The “powers” are NOT “related to the Shards.” How much clearer can that be? Local Shardworld Investiture (the Shard’s “role”) provides the platform by which magic users can “get the powers.” THEY ARE NOT THE POWERS THEMSELVES.

I already disagree with this point. We know the Investiture is consistent in the Spiritual but nothing more, no "unique proprieties" or something like that. You could call this "power of creation", "Pure Investiture", "true Investiture", "perfect Investiture" or some other name. But this doesn't mean this "thing" (from now I will keep call it "Powers" to remain in line with the reast of the post...I want to avoid to add more complexity) is acutal something more than Investiture without without Cognitive/Physical influence. But the only WoB (and the clue of this usage) suggest is something related to the its location (if we could call the Spiritual Realm a Location).

For couse this is deeply aganist your idea, because the Dor will be not Powers but Investiture...Because it's not in the Spiritual.

Again I think you misread some WoB. Trying to make it fits with your idea. Brandon use "power" in a general way not with your definition.

18 hours ago, Confused said:

“Small” picture, might there be magic systems I consider “Investiture Magic” (like Feruchemy) that turn out to actually use the Powers? Sure (although I don’t think so). But that just means I mis-categorized that system. It doesn’t make the classification “deeply wrong.”

What I call the “catalytic magic systems” – the ones that require consumption of a catalyst – are empirically different in scope and effect than the non-catalytic systems. Brandon makes clear that these catalytic systems – “like Allomancy and Surgebinding” – didn’t exist before the Shattering. You really think there’s no functional difference between “Investiture” and the “Powers” by whatever name you choose to call them?

Of course my "deeply wrong" was about the whole idea, not the bad istance of Feruchemy....My bad if I was unclear (and for the regular bad grammar).

18 hours ago, Confused said:

Your specific objections [edited for clarity]:

“If Powers [can convert into] Investiture, and Investiture [can convert into] Powers, your theory has no sense. If this two are interchangeable, there are no sense to specific a set of rules and limitations for both of them.”

This is your statement, not mine – I don’t believe Investiture can convert into the Powers. Even if these two magical substances were fully interconvertible, each would still retain its unique properties while it was in that state. This is no different than Investiture, matter and energy being fully interconvertible, yet each retaining its unique properties. I address below the “cosmere conservation” implications of this, in response to your other question.

I simply exposed both the possibilities I didn't say your point was a complete Investiture-->POwer and Power-->Investiture. I exposed how both the possibilities are still faulty.

18 hours ago, Confused said:

“If Powers [can convert into] Investiture alone, you need to explain [to] me how it's possible for Preservation to regain his ‘powers’ once he expends in Allomancy. Preservation's Power is explicitly used and turned into matter/energy so for your model it could be recovered only as Investiture.

“The same thing is true for the Dor, The Elantrians have to diminish the amount of Dor with their AonDor (also the others Selish Magic Users), but Elantrians have the highest Dor output.”

You’re addressing issues I wanted to defer to a later post. Oh, well…. Short answer: It’s NOT possible to recover the Powers once they’ve been used. Using the Powers creates something else – new matter, energy, or Investiture that can convert into each other but not back into the Powers.

Disclaimer: I don’t believe this is a significant point for the Cosmere Magic Theory. Even if “reconversion” into the Powers is possible, it just makes the Powers infinitely available. They’re still the Powers, with their own magical function. I’m not a scientist, engineer or mathematician, so please excuse my tortured understanding of thermodynamics.

Brandon’s “Cosmere Conservation Law” states “Investiture cannot be created or destroyed. It follows its own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.” This means the sum of all matter, energy and Investiture (including the Powers) is constant. These elements may change form, but the total amount of the “one substance” in the cosmere doesn’t change.

The cosmere can thus obey its Conservation Law regardless of which elements at that moment comprise the cosmere. That raises your question: Can matter, energy and Investiture convert back into the Powers or only into each other? Are the Powers a renewable resource or a dwindling one?

In 2012, Master_Moridin asked Brandon, “Why does Preservation fueling Allomancy not weaken Preservation compared to Ruin?” Brandon answered, “Because the power, once used, returns to him – much as water, after passing over a turbine, continues on in its system.”

This statement seems contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If elements of “Creation” (the sum of all Spiritwebs and their corresponding aspects) can re-convert into the Powers – “return to [Preservation]” – the Powers can create more energy. The cosmere in this scenario becomes a perpetual motion machine and can never obtain entropic equilibrium.  

The alternative is that matter, energy and Investiture, once created, do NOT convert back into the Powers. The Powers are the cosmere’s raw material – they don’t renew. Instead, matter, energy and Investiture only recycle into one another. The Cosmere Conservation Law still applies in this scenario: Creation grows as the Powers diminish.

Does that help? Don’t get tripped up on the words “Powers” and “Investiture.” Think of their meanings in the “Big Picture” context.

This is something I can't accept. Your theory's  core is about Powers becoming Investiture as "potential creation becoming matter/energy". You can't say this isn't a significant point in your Cosmere Magic Theory.

 

End just to say, I am not an expert in the field, so probably someone here could easly correct me. But also in out Universe, a couple of the possible "Universe's final outcomes" are the Big Crunch and Big Bounce. In this theoretical scenario, the Universe's expansion stopped thanks to the gravity and the whole Universe starts to collapse into itself, to return into a Singularity form.

[Djarskublar]

In the end, it is magic. Really logical and relatively thermodynamically accurate magic, but still magic. I have some theories about how it doesn't defy conservation, but they are, unfortunately, complete guesses and outside my specialty.

The easiest to picture and explain would be motion magic like steelpushes and gravitational lashings. My guess would be that when an object experiences friction, rather than warm up, it loses both speed and Investiture. The Investiture bleeds off it, so it slows and then the Investiture returns to its Shard. So, while there is work being done on something, there is no net gain in energy on the physical plane. This isn't really relevant to the conversation though.

I think the general consensus with your theory, @Confused, is that you are reading too much into old WoBs. Still a cool theory. Now that I actually understand it, I can see where you are coming from much better, but I still agree with the general consensus. Occam's Razor and all that.

[Confused]

@Weltall, I agree with everything you say (except for the “putting words in Brandon’s mouth” part). You correctly state the context of the cited WoBs: “where a manifestation of Investiture appears to act in a way that doesn't fit the Intent of the Shard whose power the individual is drawing on….” Brandon’s explanation in both WoBs is that a Shard’s Mandate – its “personality/role” – doesn’t limit what the Shard “can do.” You conclude this is “opposite of [my] point.”

My theory states the type of Investiture I call the “Powers” is functionally different from the unique Shardworld Investitures. The local Investitures are unique mainly (but not exclusively) because of their Shard’s Mandate.

Yet the Shards, despite their Mandates, are still capable of expressing all the Powers. That’s why Brandon says, “the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role.” I believe his reference to “the “energy of Shards” refers to the Powers.

So…Mandated Investiture (Stormlight, the mists, Breaths, Taldain’s solar radiation) is unique to its Shardworld. But the “energy of Shards” (the Powers) can still “fuel all kinds of interactions” despite the Shard Mandates. Further, “[t]he 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

My conclusion: local Mandated Investiture provides the means to access the Powers. But the Powers, once accessed, “can fuel all kinds of interactions.” I think these WoBs, even with your context, support my theory.

@Extesian, I care deeply about collaborative theory-building. That’s why I asked six different long-time Forum members to review earlier drafts of the theory. The OP publicly acknowledges how their help “sharpened the theory’s focus and presentation.” A couple of those reviewers acknowledged the theory’s improvement. They’re still not persuaded, but that’s okay.

Poster comments express interpretive differences. We all review the same evidence. We just reach different conclusions based on that evidence. There’s no “right” or “wrong” about such matters. That’s why we have Forums, to debate such issues. Let the future of the cosmere decide the theory’s “truth.”

Thank you sincerely for your other comments. I do hope you and everyone else keeps reading. This post is the first installment of my “Cosmere Magic Theory.” The second is “Pre-Shattering Magic.” The third will be “The Structure of Catalytic Magic Systems.”

@Yata, I hoped you would answer my “Agree?” questions. Their purpose was to try and isolate the link in the logical chain where we diverge. That might make our discussions more focused and fruitful.

@Djarskublar, I appreciate all your comments. Thanks for your continued interest.

[Djarskublar]

6 minutes ago, Confused said:

So…Mandated Investiture (Stormlight, the mists, Breaths, Taldain’s solar radiation) is unique to its Shardworld. But the “energy of Shards” (the Powers) can still “fuel all kinds of interactions” despite the Shard Mandates. Further, “[t]he 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

This is slightly off. The difference between mandated and blank Investiture is the source, not the world. Preservation's Investiture has a Preservation Intent/mandate. On the other hand, the pool we see in Sixth of the Dusk is actually ambient Investiture from when Adonalsium created the world, and therefor has 'Adonalsium' Intent. Since Mr A was complete, this Investiture is effectively blank of any Intent/mandate. I am okay with the concept that there are blank Investitures on most of the world that people could tap into, though I will be highly skeptical of any particular example, since they idea doesn't have a ton of evidence. The exception to this is Scadrial, since it was created by Ruin and Preservation, so it doesn't have any blank Investiture from pre-Shattering creation.

 

12 minutes ago, Confused said:

six different long-time Forum members

This made me laugh, since I'm pretty sure I have been around longer than at least one or two of them. I looked at profiles, and it looks like I joined only a month after Yata. Spool has only been around a year or so. I was just a lurker for a long time, then posted a few things and went inactive for a year or so, and that combined with not posting just a few sentences frequently made it so I have a lower post count. I have some interesting thoughts on the final battle in HoA that I really should go back and necro, since I dug up the thread recently and was horrified by how bad of a case I made. Note: I'm not bragging here or stating anything about our relative cosmere knowledge, it was just amusing.

[Yata]

On 18/3/2017 at 5:14 AM, Confused said:

 

@Yata, I hoped you would answer my “Agree?” questions. Their purpose was to try and isolate the link in the logical chain where we diverge. That might make our discussions more focused and fruitful.

Yeah I have to apologize for this. I wrote the previous reply in tiny little slices of free time along the day. I make a little mess.

Returning to what you asked.

On 17/3/2017 at 1:58 AM, Confused said:

Yata, I asked you to review an early draft of the full theory because I respect your opinion. But I feel you (and others) are the ones arguing “semantics.” You’re not looking at the “Big Picture.”

 

Quote

There is “existence,” that thing we call the cosmere and its Realms. Agree?

No problem here dude.

Quote

“Existence” has three components – matter, energy, and some magical substance we call “Investiture.” Agree?

Yeah all clear and widelly canon

Quote

Unlike matter and energy, this “Investiture” is unique to each Shardworld. People from other Shardworlds must “hack” the unique local Investiture to use it. Agree?

This began already to become a little messy. Because the answer to this point could be "yes" or "not really" if you use different semantics for "unique to each Shardworld". 

IF you mean that Investiture manifests itself differently in different Shardworlds: The answer is yes, the Breath is Investiture "boxed" differently than Stormlight just to say (I used the two most different type we know). The Shard's power is filtred by the world and "show up" differently.

About the "Hacking part" I have to disagree. We saw (or know with WoB) multiple istances of not standard fueling. Unless you considerate the simple act of trying something different an Hack.

- Returned feeding in Stormlight, Perpendicularity or Taldain's Dayside

- Black Sand (or maybe it's better to say "empty White Sand"...I am unsure) rechargable by an Highstorm (so Stormlight)

- Nightblood who does not give a storm about your Investiture

Quote

There is also a potential for more “existence,” some magical substance that can convert into more matter or energy or unique Investitures. Agree?

You could say that and to a certain extend is possible. BUT you could not say there is a need of it, there is no explic mention to creation or need for more unique Investiture.

The Invesiture could be in a perfect form in the Spiritual Realm but as I said be costricted by the others Realms, so it's not a matter of "kind of Investiture" but again it is a matter of Investiture's Location. So when Preservation move his Investiture from the Spiritual to the others Realm it manifests as Mist...then he moves it again and True Investiture again.

This indeed means The Dor is not in "true Investiture (or POwers) state (because it is out from the Spiritual Realm and costricted into some structure. Once (if this will ever happen) someone will take it again in the Spiritual he will return into his original form.

Quote

Unlike the unique local Investitures, this magical substance can do anything – enough of it can move worlds. No matter where you are, this substance is the same – “consistent” – and can be reached from anywhere (except for the Dor). Agree?

I see no reason to give this feats to something different than simply Investiture in great amount (notice also if Power are directly turning them into matter/energy/"local Investiture" you could every Powers' feat simply with a Local Investiture editing).

If this feats are restricted to the "Powers" (or proto-Investiture... again the name is meaningless). We will see directly into the Realmatic Interactions, If everytime someone used the Well, that Powers is turned into Investiture. New Powers is needed every time to refill the Well....Preservation will become weaker and weaker and Ruin will be steady stronger with or without the Atium.
This is the reason I pushed the Shard's "not weakening" is because it's a really strong evidence aganist the Power-->Investiture point. We have also other istance of this:

Sel's Cognitive is troublesome because there is too Investiture there (or in your case POwers). If AonDor and other magics will diminish the Dor...The situation would slowly become better.

Quote

I believe the cosmere’s term for this consistent magical substance that can move worlds is the “Powers of Creation.” (You don’t have to agree with that. Call this magic anything you want.)

Again I don't context you the name (sure for the future if you want to make a new Term try to avoid too generic or vague one). THe Syntax coud be whatever you want...the Semantics behind it is really troublesome.

As I said in the private draft, your Idea simply add an amount of complexity with no benefit. It could not solve problems we could not solve before...and need a lot of exceptions to work in the "big picture" (to cite yourself).

As usual I don't want you to take my answer as a insult to you. My goal isn't to hurt anyone 

On 18/3/2017 at 5:51 AM, Djarskublar said:

This made me laugh, since I'm pretty sure I have been around longer than at least one or two of them. I looked at profiles, and it looks like I joined only a month after Yata. Spool has only been around a year or so.

I am old inside Djar...this changes everything 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Yata

[+Extesian]

On 18/03/2017 at 3:14 PM, Confused said:

.

@Extesian, I care deeply about collaborative theory-building. That’s why I asked six different long-time Forum members to review earlier drafts of the theory. The OP publicly acknowledges how their help “sharpened the theory’s focus and presentation.” A couple of those reviewers acknowledged the theory’s improvement. They’re still not persuaded, but that’s okay.

Poster comments express interpretive differences. We all review the same evidence. We just reach different conclusions based on that evidence. There’s no “right” or “wrong” about such matters. That’s why we have Forums, to debate such issues. Let the future of the cosmere decide the theory’s “truth.”

Thank you sincerely for your other comments. I do hope you and everyone else keeps reading. This post is the first installment of my “Cosmere Magic Theory.” The second is “Pre-Shattering Magic.” The third will be “The Structure of Catalytic Magic Systems.”

 

All comments I can agree with Confused

[iohn]

I have a couple of questions. First @Confused, are you predicting anything specific with this theory?

I'm a pretty standard lurker, and I really just started exploring this thread, so I I'm still hazy on some of the details, but I have some questions/comments on some of the higher level ideas.

On 3/15/2017 at 0:26 AM, Confused said:

the Dor in the Cognitive Realm is an “exception” Brandon “built in” that proves the general rule

"The exception that proves the rule" is a phrase that fits language construction more than natural laws. When it comes to natural laws, if it has an exception, its wrong, or at least that exception has to be said to occur outside of the scope of that theory.
 

On 3/16/2017 at 5:58 PM, Confused said:

Does that help? Don’t get tripped up on the words “Powers” and “Investiture.” Think of their meanings in the “Big Picture” context.

This I think really cuts to the core of the disagreement on your theory, because definitions are extremely important. Based no everything you have said, your theory seems defensible and fits the data that we have, but that doesn't make it a good theory. Its like trying to map the motions of the planets with Earth as the center, you can make something that's technically correct, but doesn't give you much insight into how the planets move, you have to put the sun in the middle for that to happen.

So there are my critiques, now here is what I have to add. I would define Investiture differently. Instead of thinking of investiture as something seperate from the power of creation (The Powers), I think of it more as a mechanism that holds the power of creation. When a gemstone holds stormlight, it is holding, or invested with, a part of the power of creation. Perhaps this power has been moved through a shard, or comes from power that is inherent to roshar as of its creation, but that's irrelevant. Or another way of saying it is that the power of creation seems to be one thing, and investiture simply describes that powers current state. The state of investiture shapes what is possible for that power to do.
Does that make sense? I'm saying that investiture is not power, it in and of itself cannot move objects or be magical, its just a term used to discuss something that is currently holding or shaping the power of creation.

I also have one more note. I'm a little confused how everybody is defining internal and external investiture or power. Internal and external to what exactly? The person that is currently using the power? Is a Nahel bond internal to the knight, or external because it connects a knight and a spren? I'm not trying to make a point here I'm legitimately unsure of how to apply these words outside of Allomancy, and with allomancy the devision does seem to be whether the power a person is using affects themselves or something else.

[Confused]

@Yata Yata, thank you for your responses. They help focus our discussion.

My starting point for the theory is Brandon’s statement last February he hasn’t told us yet what Investiture is. That means none of us really know.

My theory presents a concept: “Catalytic magic systems” differ in their Realmic interactions from other magic systems. The OP explores those differences. It classifies magic systems based on the source and behavior of their Investiture.

You say “True Investiture” where I say the “Powers of Creation.” Your word stresses the Spiritual Realm’s perfection. Brandon has called Spiritual Realm Investiture “True” Investiture. In line with Leras’ M:SH metaphor, you see True Investiture’s “perfect light” “filtering” through to the other Realms where it manifests. You describe Shards “moving” Investiture from one Realm to another, including back into the True Investiture of the Spiritual Realm. You have text and WoB support for your conclusions.

I use the term “Powers of Creation” because Brandon says power without a mind to direct it becomes self-directing. I envision Adonalsium – an anagram for “a mind, a soul” – as the cosmere name for the self-directing “power of creation.” Shards are “pieces of the power of creation.” Some protean “power of creation” that becomes everything else comports with Brandon’s “one substance” principle. I also have text and WoB support.

How about “Raw Investiture”? We both see Spiritual Realm Investiture as capable of becoming – “manifesting as” – something else. Spiritual Realm Investiture is “consistent.” If you’re okay with this, I will formalize that term and contrast it with “Unique Investiture,” the specialized Investiture that manifests in the other Realms.

The definition of “Unique Investiture” is where I pick up our conversation.

Question 3:

“Unique Investiture”: I do mean the different “box types” of Investiture. These are the Investitures that differ from Shardworld to Shardworld. For that reason, I view them as part of the Shardworld’s sDNA, part of its soul. Your “filter” metaphor is another way of saying the same thing – Raw Investiture “filters’’ down from the Spiritual Realm, through the Cognitive Realm, to manifest in the Physical Realm. That’s how it becomes Unique Investiture. We agree Unique Investiture exists in all three Realms. Otherwise people wouldn’t be able to see it in the Physical Realm. Here’s where we may diverge:

My model makes a Shardworld’s Unique Investiture part of the Shardworld’s soul, the same way the planet’s unique combination of matter and energy are part of its soul. The Shardworld’s soul is its Spiritual Realm blueprint. Its Unique Investiture is built in. Unique Investiture isn’t “fed” by Raw Investiture any more than some force outside our bodies continually supplies us with blood. Unique Investiture’s only Connection with the Spiritual Realm is to its own Spiritual Realm aspect – the part of the Shardworld’s sDNA that corresponds to it – and not to Raw Investiture.

Raw Investiture is not yet part of a Spiritweb. Raw Investiture doesn’t become part of Creation until it “filters down” to create or manifest as something.

“Hacking”: I define “hacking” as changing a soul’s Identity and/or Connections to enable a non-native to use a planet’s Unique Investiture. Brandon says Vasher is a hacker. Vasher has changed some aspect of his soul to use Stormlight instead of Breath to stay alive. He could make further changes – “hacks” – to do the same thing on Taldain. These are “easier” hacks than using the vast Investiture near a perpendicularity. “Raw power is dangerous.”

Hacking does not refer to the normal workings of an Invested object, even when it uses non-native Investiture. Re-Investing black sand is not an example of “hacking.” Brandon says any Investiture can charge black sand wherever you take Taldain’s microflora. (Hoid may have done this on Nalthis.) A non-Nalthian receiving Breaths is also not “hacking” because Breaths automatically adjust to the recipient’s Identity.

Nightblood was made with the ability to feed on any Investiture – that ability comes from the way Shashara and Vasher Awakened him. Brandon compares him to a larkin. Nightblood’s not hacking, he’s just performing his magically-assigned task.

Question 4:

“Need for More…”: I think we agree Raw Investiture represents the capacity to create new stuff. It’s a LOT of capacity. The Shards are “mostly Spiritual,” and the “energy of the Shard’s being is mostly in the Spiritual Realm.”

The OP states that every use of Raw Investiture creates something, either matter or energy or Unique Investiture. That’s how catalytic magic systems work. When Kaladin “falls up” to fly, he adds energy that changes his Connection with gravity. Lightweaving and Forgery add Investiture to change souls. Is magic “needed”? That’s a philosophical question. But the use of Raw Investiture to perform catalytic magic always adds something to Creation.

“Kind of Investiture” vs. “Location”: Here again I think we’re saying the same thing. You describe a Shard “moving” his Investiture from one Realm to another. I describe a Shard “converting” from one kind of Investiture to another (based on the “one substance” WoB). Same phenomenon, different metaphor.

We may part company about “moving back again” into Raw Investiture – although this doesn’t affect the theory (see below). As @Djarskublar says, the cosmere is “magic” – anything is possible. There’s no reason the cosmere can’t pick up its pieces and try again. But Brandon has emphasized the cosmere’s Thermodynamic laws. He accepts the concept of entropy. If your model is correct, it may violate that concept. That’s my only hang-up with Raw Investiture renewability.

FWIW, when asked whether some magic systems are “stronger” than others, Brandon said “Yes…Definitely.” He concluded, “The powers [of magic systems] are not equal. Shards were generally equal. Some have given up more power than others.” I read this WoB as favoring my interpretation – by “giving up” more of their Raw Investiture to power magic systems, Shards reduced their own “power,” their remaining pool of Raw Investiture. I agree my interpretation doesn’t foreclose yours.

Regardless of which view of the conservation laws is correct, Raw Investiture renewability doesn’t affect the OP’s theory. The theory is about magic systems, not the cosmere’s conservation laws. Even if you are right, the catalytic systems would still behave the way they do. That’s why I said in an earlier post the answer doesn’t matter to the theory.

Khriss in her AU Scadrial essay describes how metals cause “an Investiture” of an Allomancer. This and other scattered bits of evidence make me think that “an Investiture” is the result of using Raw Investiture to make Unique Investiture. IOW, the process of converting – or “filtering” or “moving” – Raw Investiture into Unique Investiture is “an Investiture.” (Would “moving” Unique Investiture back into Raw Investiture be a “Divestiture”?)

The Dor: This is another issue where I think our differences don’t matter. You look at location and say the Dor is not Raw Investiture. I look at function and conclude it is, even though Odium mashed Devotion and Dominion’s Raw Investiture into Sel’s Cognitive Realm subastral.

I think we’re both right. The Dor is a hybrid. It’s Cognitive Realm location makes it Unique Investiture, but it functions as Raw Investiture, just like it did before. The only thing that’s changed is magic system location-dependency (which I don’t mean to minimize). I describe the Dor as the exception that proves the general rule: Raw Investiture can do anything even outside its normal Realm.

This again doesn’t affect the validity of the OP’s theory. Sel’s catalytic magic systems still work like other catalytic systems. Selish catalytic systems still Connect to the Dor to make magic. All that’s changed is where the magic user Connects to the Dor.

Question 5:

I understand you to say that “moving worlds” depends only on the amount of Investiture. I agree, which is why my question assumes you have “enough of it.” Is this what you meant?

I don’t understand the rest of your statement. Do you mean a magic user can “edit” – hack – the local Unique Investiture to achieve the same effects that Raw Investiture produces? If so, I don’t agree with that. I believe catalytic magic systems need Raw Investiture to perform Creation Magic even on Sel. Brandon says Vin uses the mists as a substitute for metals – meaning as a catalyst to make the Connection to Preservation. He does not say the mists convert into Preservation’s Raw Investiture.

You say if only Raw investiture is involved, “We will see directly into the Realmatic Interactions.” (FWIW, I now call these “Realmic” interactions, following Khriss in AU.) I think all magic involves Realmic interactions, since all magic affects all three Realms one way or another. I’m not sure what you’re saying here.

You also say

“If everytime someone used the Well, that Powers is turned into Investiture. New Powers is needed every time to refill the Well....Preservation will become weaker and weaker and Ruin will be steady stronger with or without the Atium.”

I’ve been unclear. Atium and the Well are both Unique Investiture. Unique Investiture does recycle under the cosmere conservation laws. I just think it recycles only into matter, energy and other Unique Investiture and not back into Raw Investiture. Lifeforms die, planets erode, and these substances become some other form of themselves. Eventually Unique Investiture reforms into atium or the Well. But this all occurs within the confines of Creation. Again, I don’t feel strongly about the conservation laws because I don’t think it affects the OP’s theory one way or another.

“Complexity”:

My model predicts how magic systems behave. You can apply this model to known and unknown magic systems. It explains the structure of every magic system.

Our only real difference is something the OP doesn’t address and isn’t part of or necessary to the theory – Brandon’s cosmere conservation laws. That aside, all we may be left with are different metaphors for the same phenomena. Metaphors are more than “semantics.” Metaphors ARE the models theorists use to describe things. The “truth” of any model/metaphor is found in how accurately the model can predict.

*   *   *   *   *

@iohn, thanks for your observations. I predict magic systems based on Vax’s Unique Investiture will affect only the souls that are the objects of its magic – “Investiture Magic.” Vax’s Unique Investiture may also build a catalytic magic system that Connects to Raw Investiture in the Spiritual Realm. THAT system will be able to do anything – it will perform “Creation Magic.” The theory also predicts the “catalyst” on Vax will be the Unique Investiture Adonalsium left on that planet – Adonalsium’s Investiture shares a “resonance” with Raw Investiture. (That’s beyond the OP – I begin to develop this idea in the Cosmere Theory’s second part – “Pre-Shattering Magic.”)

“Natural Law” in cosmere terms is our universe’s physics plus magic. The “general” cosmere rule is magic can do anything – it supersedes all other “rules” provided the magic works consistently with its own rules. Odium’s magic pushed Devotion and Dominion’s Raw Investiture into the Cognitive Realm. I say above that makes the Dor a “hybrid” Investiture – it’s no longer in the Spiritual Realm and to that extent is “Unique,” but it continues to function just like Raw Investiture except for its location-dependency (which again I don’t wish to minimize). To me, that’s the exception that proves the general rule: magic can do anything if it’s consistent with its own rules. The magical rule here is “Raw Investiture is Raw Investiture no matter where located, subject to the magical rules of that location.”

You say, “the powers of creation are one thing, and Investiture is just its current state.” I agree with this (subject to my qualms about Raw Investiture renewability). I understand your definition of “Investiture” as near-identical to mine – just a different metaphor – with one exception discussed below.

You say “Investiture is a mechanism for holding the powers of creation…. The state of investiture shapes what is possible for that power to do.” I agree. Investiture “transcends the Realms.” In the Spiritual Realm, it is “consistent.” I interpret this to mean “unformed, unused, protean – “raw,” as in “Raw power is dangerous.” When this kind of Spiritual Realm Investiture “moves” or is “filtered” or “converts” into matter or energy or other forms of Investiture, it becomes “unique” to the created object in all three Realms. The “uniqueness” of each Invested object – including Shardworlds – is its “state of investiture” and does “shape what is possible for that power to do.”

You also say, “investiture is not power, it in and of itself cannot move objects or be magical, it’s just a term used to discuss something that is currently holding or shaping the power of creation.” I agree: “Investiture is not power,” but I’ve given up that battle. Now I say “Unique Investiture” is not “Raw Investiture.” I also agree it’s “a term used to discuss something that is currently holding or shaping the power of creation.” I cite a WoB in the OP that says so.

But that doesn’t mean it “cannot…be magical.” (I do agree it can’t move objects.) The OP states Unique Investiture can affect souls that are the magic’s object. Syl is Unique Investiture that bonds to a chosen human. A Divine Breath is Unique Investiture that bonds with a chosen Returned. Aviar form Cognitive bonds with chosen humans. Scadrial’s inheritable Investiture is a randomly-distributed Unique Investiture of humans. Breaths are Endowment’s innate Investiture of every Nalthian. This “Investiture Magic” is all “magical,” it just isn’t the kind of magic that “moves objects.” That kind of magic is “Creation Magic” and requires a Connection to Raw Investiture to perform.

Brandon compares Allomancy with Feruchemy. He says Allomancy uses an “external” source of “power” – Allomancers use metal conduits to draw down Preservation’s Raw Investiture - while Feruchemy relies on an “Internal” source – a Feruchemist’s Investiture is “built in” to his Spiritweb. He also says “it’s a phrasing that could be useful as a tool but doesn’t scale well to the other magics.”

Your Nahel bond question shows the difference between Raw and Unique Investiture. Spren are Unique Investiture, including Radiantspren. Spren are Roshar’s “platform” for Connecting to Raw Investiture. Radiantspren meld to their human host through the Nahel bond. The Nahel bond enables the Surgebinder to “process” Stormlight. As the bond deepens, the Surgebinder can consume Stormlight to Connect with Raw Investiture. The Raw Investiture is “external” to the Surgebinder.

The Nahel bond enables the Surgebinder to direct this Raw Investiture through the intermediation of the Radiantspren. Radiantspren are a form of Cognitive Investiture. Their ability to command Raw Investiture distinguishes them from most other splinters.

Thanks to all for your continued interest!

Edited March 25, 2017 by Confused

[Djarskublar]

Alrighty @Confused, I have gained a greater understanding of your theory, and am more ready to say that it is within the realm of possibility (but not the Spiritual Realm :p). I have a few caveats to this, though, and I still disagree with it fundamentally.

The first is that I disagree with both you and @Yata about the form of raw Investiture. I think that all Investiture has Intent attached to it. Period. Regardless of the Realm it resides in. Even the bits of Investiture from Adonalsium that are still floating around unattached to a Shard have Intent attached to them. That Intent is just complete, so it behaves essentially the same as so called 'blank' Investiture. The Shards are the way they are because the huge quantity of Investiture they are composed of have a driving Intent. This Intent isn't some metaphor applied by in-world scholars, it is hard wired into the Investiture they constitute. Even knowledgeable individuals such as Hoid and Leras/Ati use the names of the Shards as is, and that is compelling evidence. I would argue that the individual quanta of Investiture Shards hold have an individual, slightly varied Intent that add up to whatever intent the Shard holds, similar to a rainbow having many bands of specific colors, but some of them being generally categorized as 'red' or 'green.' In this metaphor, Adonalsium's Investiture would be white, composed of all colors. If this wasn't the case, then the Shards themselves wouldn't have an Intent, and the Investiture would gain an Intent specific to how/why it is used when brought into use by mortals. I.e. you could burn steel, and you would get Investiture flowing through you that matches your Intent in burning the metal, rather than Preservation Investiture. So in essence, all Investiture is, as you put it, Unique Investiture. To use canon terminology, that Investiture has Intent. Please use canon terminology whenever possible, when you start using other stuff, it just confuses discussion. This is one of the main reasons your theory is so difficult to grasp. Your explanations are accurate, but not precise, if you know the more technical definitions of the two.)

4 hours ago, Confused said:

Brandon compares Allomancy with Feruchemy. He says Allomancy uses an “external” source of “power” – Allomancers use metal conduits to draw down Preservation’s Raw Investiture - while Feruchemy relies on an “Internal” source – a Feruchemist’s Investiture is “built in” to his Spiritweb. He also says “it’s a phrasing that could be useful as a tool but doesn’t scale well to the other magics.”

You are misquoting or misunderstanding here. The first quote is about external vs internal, whereas the second is about end-positive/neutral/negative, which are two different things. External systems are powered by something other than your self, while internal systems are powered by your self. End-nets are more about how much Investiture is in your given system at the end of the reaction. End positive systems end with more energy in them than they started with. Allomancy is end-positive within the system of the Allomancer. Feruchemy is clearly end-neutral, ignoring imperfect conversion efficiencies. Hemalurgy is end-negative because the amount of Investiture that is in the spike and spiked person is less than the Investiture that constituted that trait in the spiked person originally. So all end-positive systems will be external because the power has to come from somewhere, but end-neutral/negative systems can be either internal or external, and it makes no difference mechanically which it is, since all we are doing is considering a system's energy. Think of them like D&D alignments. They are similar, but different.

Another thing that I disagree with is the physical forms of Investiture. You speak of Stormlight and the mists as if they aren't Investiture, but just some gas you consume like a metal to Connect to the relevant Shard. This is not the case. That is what metals do in Allomancy, yes, but the mists are the power of Preservation manifest in the Physical Realm. You use the mists to fuel you directly, which is why they aren't constrained to being used for any individual power. Lerasium is the same, but because it is rigid in a solid form, it can only be used in a specific manner. It comes pre-filtered to a specific effect. I think it can be seen pretty plainly from the text that Stormlight is Investiture, not some gas you draw in to Connect to Investiture. That is why it can store in gemstones. That is why, when it leaks, it leaks as Stormlight, rather than being consumed like metals would be and leaking something else. When Light is stored in your body, it just generally makes you better, but when you Surgebind, you have to push that Light through the filter of the Nahel bond into some specific form (or whatever the focus is on Roshar...).

I think that covers everything that bothered me with that post, but I may be back later. Live long and prosper _\\//

[Yata]

I have just a little time now, so probably I need to expand my aswer later but:

On 25/3/2017 at 3:28 AM, Confused said:

I don’t understand the rest of your statement. Do you mean a magic user can “edit” – hack – the local Unique Investiture to achieve the same effects that Raw Investiture produces? If so, I don’t agree with that. I believe catalytic magic systems need Raw Investiture to perform Creation Magic even on Sel. Brandon says Vin uses the mists as a substitute for metals – meaning as a catalyst to make the Connection to Preservation. He does not say the mists convert into Preservation’s Raw Investiture.

 

On 25/3/2017 at 3:28 AM, Confused said:

I’ve been unclear. Atium and the Well are both Unique Investiture. Unique Investiture does recycle under the cosmere conservation laws. I just think it recycles only into matter, energy and other Unique Investiture and not back into Raw Investiture. Lifeforms die, planets erode, and these substances become some other form of themselves. Eventually Unique Investiture reforms into atium or the Well. But this all occurs within the confines of Creation. Again, I don’t feel strongly about the conservation laws because I don’t think it affects the OP’s theory one way or another.

Unless I read it in the wrong way this two statements are contradictory (they are both from the "Question 5" Section). I will try to dissect the statement in both the possibilities, but I see in it a contradiction.

- The Well is able to do what you mostly define as "Powers(or now Raw Invesiture) Feat" the "moving worlds tier" ones like affecting the Souls at planetary level. So the Well have to be Raw Invesiture not Unique Investiture. But if the Well is Raw Investiture, you "spend" it (turning into Unique Investiture) upon use. So the Raw Investiture's Source (Preservation) have to expend energy/Powers/Raw Investiture to refill the Well with New Raw Investiture.

- The Well as Unique Investiture is aganist (your) assumption on the Unique Investiture's limits themself. If the Well. Unique investiture can't affect other Spirit-Webs.

And again please don't take WoB don't explicity states something as counterproof to something.

On 25/3/2017 at 9:01 AM, Djarskublar said:

The first is that I disagree with both you and @Yata about the form of raw Investiture. I think that all Investiture has Intent attached to it.

I am a bit confused, I never say something different. The Shard's Invesiture is attached to an Intent/Mandate always. I never denied this fact. We could see everywhere the implication of this. We have also WoB about if I don't remember wrong....indeed IF this wasn't true, the implications would be weird and some really important Cosmere's plot will simply fail and become stupid.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Yata

[Djarskublar]

17 hours ago, Yata said:

I am a bit confused, I never say something different. The Shard's Invesiture is attached to an Intent/Mandate always. I never denied this fact. We could see everywhere the implication of this. We have also WoB about if I don't remember wrong....indeed IF this wasn't true, the implications would be weird and some really important Cosmere's plot will simply fail and become stupid.

Ach I went back and re-read your post, and I see now that I misinterpreted one of your answers to one of Confused's questions. I thought you had implied that with your response, but apparently I wasn't reading it properly. I was probably influenced by what he had said before, so I was thinking in that context. I do think @Confused is perhaps confused on this idea, but I'm not certain yet.

 

On the subject of conservation, it definitely matters to your model. It is something that any truly comprehensive model needs to at least attempt to reconcile. My personal theory about it is that when the object affected by the magic would feel the equivalent of entropy or friction or whatever, it doesn't lose energy, it loses Investiture. That was a horrible way to put it, but an example might illustrate the point. When Kaladin Lashes a ball to the sky, it experiences resistant forces. As the ball just leaks Light anyway since it isn't a perfect container, it loses some that way. The ball should also be heating up due to friction, but my guess is that it doesn't and rather loses some of the Light in it to fricative forces. I don't have any idea how accurate that it, but it is my personal theory until I see something better.

[Confused]

I’ve edited the OP to clarify the presentation and use consistent terminology. I did not make any substantive changes or amend the theory. If you’ve already commented on the theory, there’s nothing new here. But if you’ve not yet read the theory, I invite your review and comments.

 

Regards all!

[StrikerEZ]

Maybe i shouldn't be posting on this since this thread was last posted in almost two months ago, but I felt I might have something to help clear up some of what I believe @Confused is confused about.

Investiture is like matter and energy, and can be changed between those two at will. The only difference between the massive amounts of Investiture in the Spirit Realm and any other Realm, whether it be a Splinter, the Dor, a Shard, or simply the Investiture of a metalmin, are all the same thing, just in slightly different forms and with different Intents. It's like how matter can be a solid, liquid, or gas. And as for large amounts of Investiture gaining sentience and/or doing massive feats (e.g. moving planets), this is like how matter when its clumped in large amounts exerts huge amounts of gravity on other objects. What you attempting to say with "Unique Investiture" and "Raw Investiture" is that they're two separate things, yes? That's like saying an apple (the equivalent to Unique Investiture) is different than a planet, or even a star (the equivalent to Raw Investiture).

This is really my only problem with your theory. Besides that, I think it is really good.