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Narrowing Down the Last Shards [AU]


Khyrindor

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36 minutes ago, KnightofLight said:

I totally agree. It seems Love should definitely be a shard of a God figure. If the opposite theory is considered then it would have to be the antithesis of odium. It will be interesting to see what the last 6 shards are. And also (reading the past posts) I don't think devotion can include love. Devotion is a result of some form of love but it can also involve a lot of other attributes like passion and persistence 

You can be devoted to revenge, which is about as far from love as you can get. You can be devoted to something whether it be a person, or a cause, for very negative reasons.

On the opposite view, you can love something, and lack Devotion. Many people would argue that means you don't love the person/cause/object/whatever, but if you recognize the two things as separate, you that those people do love. They just appear fickle and hurt people due to a lack of an attribute needed to fulfill the requirements of the emotions they feel. 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

You can be devoted to revenge, which is about as far from love as you can get. You can be devoted to something whether it be a person, or a cause, for very negative reasons.

On the opposite view, you can love something, and lack Devotion. Many people would argue that means you don't love the person/cause/object/whatever, but if you recognize the two things as separate, you that those people do love. They just appear fickle and hurt people due to a lack of an attribute needed to fulfill the requirements of the emotions they feel. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=699#6

When Brandon uses Devotion, he is using it as a synonym of love. The word itself can have other meanings, but those are not what Brandon is getting at.

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  • 7 months later...

Reading through this reminded me of a WoB that seemed relavant. When looking for it I found another one along the same lines.

Quote

Josh

The Allomantic metals are separated into four quadrants. Do the Shards have classifications as well, in groups of four?

Brandon Sanderson

This division, the Allomantic division is a thing researchers and scholars placed upon it.
Quote

ROSHtafARian

In the Mistborn trilogy, the base 16 Allomantic metals separate into different groups like the Enhancement metals, etc. Given that there are 16 Shards, do they also separate into different groupings as well? For instance, are Shards like Honor and Devotion part of one 'grouping', with Shards like Cultivation and Endowment part of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question.

...

RAFO

Though not conclusive, these suggest to me that Shards, like Allomantic metals, can be categorized into groups of four, but that isn't something inherent about the Shattering. Instead, these groupings are more what a scholar (like Khriss) would assign afterwards.

Commenting on the "opposites" idea. Using the Allomantic metals as an example, metals like iron and steel form a perfectly opposing pair (Pushing and Pulling on the same anchor will have a net zero effect), while its hard to see how tin and pewter are "opposites" (one enhances senses, the other physical strength). So analogously, some Shards, like Ruin and Preservation, are complete opposites, while others may only be "opposites" in the way that tin and pewter are.

On that note, I found an interesting tidbit in Arcanum Unbounded. In Khriss's article on the Selish System, she says:

Quote

... the powers of Dominion and Devotion [are] trapped on the Cognitive Realm. Collectively, these powers - which have a polarized relationship - are called the Dor.

Dominion and Devotion are opposites.

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On 3/1/2017 at 5:48 PM, Extesian said:
So I’ll have a go at this, I’m inclined to agree that rather than being pairings, there are groupings of four. I’m basing this loosely on the categories of the 16 metals, and all this is pure speculation, and despite me not thinking its pairings I’ve gone ahead and done opposites. It’s really just to clarify my thoughts.

Hopefully it will prompt others to do a more useful analysis and I expect my ‘new’ shards to be picked apart. As should my categorization. But it may be a different way of looking at this and I’d love to hear views.

 

Cognitive

Honor – the obligation to do what you say you will do, to be consistent

Variability – to be inconsistent, to change from moment to moment

Enlightenment – to seek knowledge and understanding

Belief – to have unchanging views

 

Spiritual/emotional

Devotion – to give up yourself for others

Odium – to hate

Purity – to be of one kind

Amalgamation – to be of many kinds

 

Physical

Endowment – to give something to others

Appropriation? – to take something from others

Autonomy – to have control of yourself

Dominion – to have control of others

 

Temporal

Cultivation – to work on something other than yourself

Ambition – to work on yourself

Preservation – to never change, inertia

Ruin – to break things down, entropy

 

edit: i hope the formatting is ok. It looks like chaos on my phone. And of course these are not all my ideas, especially enlightenment. But i feel categorizing may help figure out what could be missing.

This has actually been discussed before, @Weux082690.  Still, good ideas :)

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  • 1 year later...
1 minute ago, Stormgate said:

Odium is defined in OB to be the shard of Passion, perhaps another one for softer emotions?

Odium claims to be the Shard of Passion in OB. In no way is that confirmed to be true. And in fact, it's heavily implied in multiple WoBs that he's lying. Also this thread is over a year old :D

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On 12/30/2017 at 5:54 PM, ILuvHats said:

Cognitive

Honor – the obligation to do what you say you will do, to be consistent

Variability – to be inconsistent, to change from moment to moment

Enlightenment – to seek knowledge and understanding

Belief – to have unchanging views

 

Spiritual/emotional

Devotion – to give up yourself for others

Odium – to hate

Purity – to be of one kind

Amalgamation – to be of many kinds

 

Physical

Endowment – to give something to others

Appropriation? – to take something from others

Autonomy – to have control of yourself

Dominion – to have control of others

 

Temporal

Cultivation – to work on something other than yourself

Ambition – to work on yourself

Preservation – to never change, inertia

Ruin – to break things down, entropy

I like this but I personally would make some changes.

Spiritual/Emotional

Honor-To connect with others to be consistent to expect things of others and give them a chance to live up to it

Autonomy-To be independent of others to expect nothing of anyone else

Odium-To hate others to desire to dominate or destroy

Adoration (Unknown)-To desire the approval of others to desire their acceptance and love

Physical

Endowment- To give to others to strengthen them

Tax(unknown)- To take from others to weaken them

Temporal I think this is correct no need for change

Cultivation – to work on something other than yourself

Ambition – to work on yourself

Preservation – to never change, inertia

Ruin – to break things down, entropy

Cognitive

Dominion- To force or manipulate others to your way of thinking or use them corrosively

Devotion- To allow others to follow you to help them as best you can

Pride(unknown)- To care for yourself more then any other

Humility(unknown)- To care little for yourself to want as little as possible potentially survival shard.

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Quote
Sofia signing (March 28, 2017)
 
 

Questioner

If you were entrusted with a Shard of Adonalsium, which Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Ummm... Heh heh heh... maybe Ingenuity. 

 

 I'd love to think that he's teasing a real shard here, and not just messing with the fans. I had previously thought Insight (or something like it) could be a shard, but this might fill the role. Or perhaps Ingenuity has more with creativity and thinking of new things, and Insight is more about knowledge/awareness. In that case Insight would be a good candidate for the "survival shard." (note: there are no wobs or hints about Insight, it's just an idea of mine)

Not sure where either of those would fit on a quadrant list, but I'm a tad skeptical of the quadrant idea anyways.

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@WhiteEmporer  while it's still not conclusive, when Chaos approached him about that slip here...

Quote

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Ingenuity a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Umm... *long pause* Maybe. *smiles slyly*

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

The facial expression is according to Chaos, and while the wording isn't conclusive, Chaos is convinced Ingenuity is a Shard. 

And I absolutely agree with you that the quadrant system is flawed. 

But... I don't believe we can accurately categorize the Shards, let alone predict "what's still missing." I think the names we've been given or only the interpretations of deeper core intents by the current Vessels. Which is why I believe that Unity and Honor are 100% the same thing. Just with a different interpretation. 

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Ingenuity or a synonym is probably a shard based on the above. I see it as part of the lifecycle shards. Creation/Growth/Stasis/Decline.  Ingenuity/Cultivation/Preservation/Ruin. 

synonyms: inventiveness, creativity, imagination, originality, innovation, resourcefulness, enterprise, insight, inspiration,

The Hide/Survive shard may be Wisdom or a synonym. Synonyms hidden for length:

Spoiler
sy
nonyms:
sagacity, sageness, intelligence, understanding, insight, perception, perceptiveness, percipience, penetration, perspicuity, acuity, discernment, sense, good sense, common sense, shrewdness, astuteness, acumen, smartness, judiciousness, judgment, foresight, clear-sightedness, prudence, circumspection; More

 

18 hours ago, Karger said:

Endowment- To give to others to strengthen them

Tax(unknown)- To take from others to weaken them

Maybe Envy or Desire? Wanting what others have. Odium kinda covers an aspect of this since he is "The Void" that sucks in the emotions of others, the voidlight that seems to draw in light instead of give it off. But he doesn't cover all of it, so there is room for desire/jealousy/envy. Synonyms:

 
Spoiler

 

a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.
"she felt a twinge of envy for the people on board"
synonyms: jealousy, enviousness, covetousness, desire; 
resentment, resentfulness, bitterness, discontent, spite; 
the green-eyed monster
"Carla felt a sharp pang of envy"

 

 

The quadrant is a useful way of thinking about the 16 since Brandon created the chart of 16 metals first, but I don't know that it will map on categorically. He has said he based the Shards on aspects of a god's personality which might not have a  physical component. And not all the Shards have opposites so it might not be a Push/Pull dichotomy.  WoBs:

Spoiler

 

"So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. " https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9363

"No, I would say no, they do not all have a directly paired opposite intent." https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8689

 

I do have my own quadrants, but I grouped them more by what I feel their theme is instead of how they fit into the metal chart. 

Working with Others Dominion Control, Mastery, Command,  Authority, Leadership, Impose Order
Autonomy Self-directing, Freedom, Self-government
Honor  To fullfill an agreement, Keen sense of ethical conduct, bond things together which UNITES THEM!
Endowment  Give, bequeath or provide an asset, quality or ability. Invest, Equip, Bless, Gifting
     
Lifecycle/ Temporal Preservation Maintain, Keep as is, prevent change or decay, Middle of Lifecycle
Cultivation Grow, Develop, Improve, Enourage, Middle of Lifecycle
Ruin Entropy, Decay, Rot, Destroy, Death, Ending of Lifecycle
Ingenuity Inventiveness, Creation, Starting something new
     
Feelings Towards Others Devotion Love, Loyalty, Dedication to a person or cause, Religious Worship
Odium Hatred, or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions, revulsion
Envy/Desire Jealous of what others have, close to an opposite of endowment. Covet. Hunger. 
Grace Mercy, Forgiveness
     
Intangible Qualities of the Self Ambition Desire to achieve, aspiration, hope, purpose, drive
 Wisdom Hide + Survive Shard, experienced, practical, self-discipline
Enlightment Learning, Teaching, Acquiring and spreading knowledge. Silverlight?
Fortitude Courage, Ability to Endure
 

Endowment and Envy/Desire seem opposed, but one is a feeling and one is an action so I put them in different places. God's Grace is a common religious theme, I think it would fit in as part of the feelings section. Someone's actions spark Odium, but that may naturally lead to forgiveness of that person after a while. 

Wisdom for the hide and survive shard. I try to distinguish this from enlightenment in that Wisdom is more using past experience to make decisions, while Enlightenment is more academic oriented. Silverlight and Khriss come to mind. Street smarts versus book smarts. 

Still missing one I think Wisdom can encompass Humility, remembering one's past failings and not getting too full of oneself. Pride could work. I chose fortitude because it is another quality of the self and I saw it on this list of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit and don't think it is really covered by another Shard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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On 29/03/2019 at 4:15 AM, Calderis said:

@WhiteEmporer  while it's still not conclusive, when Chaos approached him about that slip here...

The facial expression is according to Chaos, and while the wording isn't conclusive, Chaos is convinced Ingenuity is a Shard. 

And I absolutely agree with you that the quadrant system is flawed. 

But... I don't believe we can accurately categorize the Shards, let alone predict "what's still missing." I think the names we've been given or only the interpretations of deeper core intents by the current Vessels. Which is why I believe that Unity and Honor are 100% the same thing. Just with a different interpretation. 

One thought I have had with ingenuity is that if it is a shard that presides over a planet wouldn't those people be by far the most advanced civilisation?

i think from memory Taldain was by far the most advanced setting (at least up until the enforced isolation)?

can we then assume if it is a shard then it hasn't been influencing people? In which case it probably is the shard that has hidden itself away?

Edited by Jeffo
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On 3/30/2019 at 4:44 AM, Jeffo said:

with ingenuity is that if it is a shard that presides over a planet

What if ingenuity is presiding over silverlight, a cognitive realm city, with no real physical realm correlate?

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8 hours ago, John203 said:

What if ingenuity is presiding over silverlight, a cognitive realm city, with no real physical realm correlate?

Hmmmm, then that would make perfect sense given the universities that are there.

i feel pretty stupid for not considering that...thank you! Ha

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