Narrowing Down the Last Shards [AU]

[Pagerunner]

2 hours ago, john203 said:

I was fairly certain someone in-world said atium was the "lost metal" at the party in SoS

Good point. But Brandon is cryptic as ever.

[Mati]

10 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

12 hours ago, john203 said:

I was fairly certain someone in-world said atium was the "lost metal" at the party in SoS

Good point. But Brandon is cryptic as ever.

Well, the only place they got atium was Pits, and all collected from there was used (and rest taken by Marsh). So after Catacendre Sazed could have moved it away, or it simply is no more 'growing' and got replaced along with lerasium by harmonium. So anyway people have no way for gaining it so it's lost for them for now.

[CosmereAvair]

It would be interesting if  lerasium was the lost metal, as it hasn't been seen as a metal being used as much in the series. Here is a WOB that makes a good statement for Lerasium being the lost metal and make a interesting novel 

 "Let me say this, as I don't want to spoil too much. If that metal Elend ate were fused into specific alloys with certain metals, it could have instead created Mistings of each of the different Allomantic powers. Atium's abilities are not entirely explored yet either"

I understand that logic as well about Autonomy having an influence, as long as the shard his helping people become more independent. I don't know if anyone commented on this already but what if Greed is a shard? 

 

[Khyrindor]

46 minutes ago, CosmereAvair said:

I understand that logic as well about Autonomy having an influence, as long as the shard his helping people become more independent. I don't know if anyone commented on this already but what if Greed is a shard? 

I think Greed would be involved in Odium, which includes jealousy. 

[tobar14]

Positive conscious change (Cultivation) <------------------No change (Preservation)--------------->Negative Conscious Change (Ruin)

Ruin and Preservation worked together, for awhile, but inevitably failed. That should be enough to show how they aren't fully balanced/opposites. Ruin & Cultivation is called nature/cycle of life...Stuff grows, then it dies and decays, then it grows again, Oh no our crops got burned because of a fire, oh it turns out that is actually good for the ground and everything prospers, everybody happy. The end.

I do like the idea of a fourth shard coming into play here. It feels like it makes the most sense, if there are groupings/pairings. (just for these shards as far as i have thought)

                                                               Chaos (unplanned change)

Cultivation (positive conscious change)                                                Ruin (Negative Conscious change)

                                                               Preservation (no change)

[Fezzik]

I feel like the best way to describe this theoretical fourth shard with ruin, preservation, and cultivation is the shard of deck shuffling. No net big picture changes, just random alteration for changes own sake.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, tobar14 said:

Chaos (unplanned change)

1 hour ago, john203 said:

No net big picture changes, just random alteration for changes own sake.

Biggest issue with these is Brandon's statement in regards to the ever-changing weather patterns on Roshar:

Quote

Well, if you consider the planet to be a closed system, then nothing about the natural processes are TRULY unpredictable.

So I don't think randomness will actually have precedence in the Cosmere. But that's my opinion, feel free to disagree

[CosmereAvair]

 

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Biggest issue with these is Brandon's statement in regards to the ever-changing weather patterns on Roshar:

So I don't think randomness will actually have precedence in the Cosmere. But that's my opinion, feel free to disagree

I agree with you there, especially because chaos as a shard would be to hard to work with story wise. Their would be no shard intent and it would be impossible to create a functioning magic system

[Andy92]

On March 6, 2017 at 8:06 PM, john203 said:

I was fairly certain someone in-world said atium was the "lost metal" at the party in SoS

What if the whole book is about Wayne looking for his lost belt buckle? 

[ZenBossanova]

The more I thought about Preservation's clue about 16, the more it really made sense to me. Not only that there are 16 Allomatic metals, but also how they were organized. If you have a being of vast or infinite power, it makes sense that things have to be balanced. External is balanced with Internal, Pushing with Pulling, etc. So, I made a chart of Allomatic and Feruchemic metal properties, but it was not entirely useful, but it was at times suggestive. So, I am going to try the prediction game again, with a few of the allomatic and feruchemic metals and the corresponding properties. 

 

Physical

External Pulling : Charisma - Control others give you  (Submission, Convincing are other possibilities)  (Unconscious)

External Pushing : Dominion – to have control of others    (Conscious)

 

Internal Pushing : Autonomy – to have control of yourself,  (Conscious)

 

Internal Pulling : Dream  - Internal Freedom, or unconscious freedom to think or act. (Freedom is another possibility) (Unconscious)  This one also correlates with tin, which involves the senses. 

 

 

Cognitive

External Pushing : Word or Language or Communication – Communicate thoughts & feelings with others  This one correlates with Brass (emotion and warmth) Inspired partly by Rithmatist. Yes, I know it is not Cosmere, but it was originally. 

External Pulling : Feel (emotion, intuition?) - Understand others thoughts & feelings   This one correlates with Zinc (enflame emotion, mental speed)

Internal Pushing : Endowment – to give something to others   (Bronze ~ wakefulness)

Internal Pulling : Devotion – to give up yourself for others or for a cause  (Copper ~ memories)



Spiritual/emotional

External Pushing : Honor – To bring together

External Pulling : Odium – to hate (pull apart) 

Internal Pushing : Preservation – to never change, inertia

Internal Pulling : Ruin – to break things down, entropy


Temporal

External Pushing : Cultivation – External Creation for others

External Pulling : Hunger/Consuming/Metabolism – to take something from others and transform it (this is inspired by Sixth of Dusk, and a comment Hoid made to Jasnah, that may or may not be relevant) 

Internal Pushing : Ambition – Internal Creation, Self-improvement, personal glory  (correlates with Electrum, which reveals your future)

Internal Pulling : Transcendence/Paradox – Internal transformation (Ashyn big maybe, WoB that might suggest it) Transcend in the sense that Einstein transcends Newton, or Jesus transcended Moses. This one was inspired by a WoB, about if Alcatraz had a shard. He doesn't of course... but if he did...

 

I think the organization is much better this time. But I am not convinced on all the names. 

 

[Khyrindor]

@ZenBossanova I'm going to use your ideas as a template to fit my own ideas for Shards in here, if you don't mind. Let me know what you think of any changes.

Physical I like how you grouped these, not convinced on all the names. As opposed to making the names of the quadrants match the groups of metals, I'd posit this one as "Authority"

So, with authority, if we apply this logic (below) to at least this set of four Shards, it works out nicely.

If "External" correlates to "to others," and "Internal" correlates to "to yourself"

And "Pushing" means it's "your choice," and Pulling means it's "other's choice."

Then we can work out a pattern:

Internal Push: Autonomy: Your "authority" to yourself, because of your choice. You're deciding to be autonomous, answering only to yourself.

Internal Pull: Charisma: Your "authority" to yourself, because of other's choices. Other people choose to be loyal to you because of a trait you posses. (I'm less sure of the Intent, but I like how it fits the pattern)

External Push: Devotion: Your "authority" to others, because of your choice. You chose to be loyal to a person or a cause.

External Pull: Dominion: Your "authority" to others, because of other's choice. Others have used power to command you, or have demanded authority over you.

I've spent a couple hours today thinking through this pattern and I feel pretty good about it. I like that it fits in the Intents of three of the known Shards. The only thing I'm not sure on is Charisma. I'm not sure I like the idea yet, as it seems quite similar to Devotion, and may be too specific to be a Shardic attribute. Any ideas for a better match (preferably one that doesn't involve me spending more hours playing with pushes and pulls to make it fit) would be appreciated. As it's late, I'll leave the other Shards for tomorrow. 

[Modal Seoul]

I think Odium did want to be paired with Devotion, but she ran off with Dominion, maybe setting up why he Splintered. Out of anger.

[+Extesian]

I like that @ZenBossanova, I like the iterations of this. Even if they're not right I feel the analysis gets better and better this thread. And I'm inclined to agree with your tidying of it @Khyrindor.

Just a note on names, I'd say charisma would be Persuasion and Feel would be empathy. Again I don't feel comfortable these are all likely Shards, I think they won't be such natural opposites, but I'll be surprised if there aren't some matches with this thread's grouping and balancing if Intents.

[ZenBossanova]

I really wanted to organize it by Physical, Cognitive, etc, like Allomatic metals,  but Authority is accurate. Could we say Authority = power in the Physical realm, or is that just shoehorning it in? 

And yes, about Charisma. I am not satisfied with that name either, but the general concept and pattern, I am very happy with. 

[Khyrindor]

2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I really wanted to organize it by Physical, Cognitive, etc, like Allomatic metals,  but Authority is accurate. Could we say Authority = power in the Physical realm, or is that just shoehorning it in? 

And yes, about Charisma. I am not satisfied with that name either, but the general concept and pattern, I am very happy with. 

Yes, I was thinking of power as wellt, the power to command people at least. I'm not convinced on organizsing it into the four groups of metals, but I'll see if that thought process continues as I work out groups of other Shards. I mostly think that way because Shards are (in my mind) based on godly attributes, and grouping them into those groups seems more like trying to fit terms into boxes, instead of fitting the boxes to the Shardic terms. Really, there could be a lot of different interpretation, and even my examples are a matter of semantics, and your guess is as good as mine. What I'm trying to do is think of the Intents of the Shards we know/think are likely, extrapolate from that, and find four overarching godly attributes that each Shard pertains to. Power/Authority is a good one that I'm reasonably sure on. I'll have to think of some others.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Khyrindor

[ZenBossanova]

On 3/10/2017 at 1:36 AM, Khyrindor said:

@ZenBossanova I'm going to use your ideas as a template to fit my own ideas for Shards in here, if you don't mind. Let me know what you think of any changes.

Physical I like how you grouped these, not convinced on all the names. As opposed to making the names of the quadrants match the groups of metals, I'd posit this one as "Authority"

 

Ok, the more I think about it, I think we are both right. 

Imagine the 16 shards forming a 4x4 grid. 

One quadrant would be Physical and another quadrant would be Cognitive, and the two Physical shards on the border, and 2 Cognitive shards on the border, would be Authority.

The official image for the 16 Feruchemical metals is particularly suggestive. With the right folding, every shard could be in 4 different quadrants, each of which would be half Internal, half External, half Pulling, half Pushing. 

[Djarskublar]

I think one possibility that hasn't been brought up is some sort of belief/faith variant. So far nobody has mentioned faith at all, though that would be something more directed towards the god than an attribute of the god.

I absolutely disagree with Revolution as a shard since the violent overthrow is ridiculous as an attribute, and the sudden change aspect is pretty well covered by Cultivation. And if that doesn't cover it, there is likely some sort of knowledge/invention/reasoning Shard, and that could cover anything left over. Beyond that, the intent you describe would be hard to work into a story, I would think. In fact, I like the idea of a Shard of Reason or Logic. The entire planet it's on might end up like Azir, though.

@ROSHtaFARian2.0, good job on that interpretation, I would say that most of it accurately presents things. I don't think it is enough to fully describe the relationships between Shards, and I would also say there is no evidence that the Shards have to be evenly split down the spectrum. I would bet, if anything, that most of them would fall pretty close to the center of the spectrum.

[+Extesian]

24 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I think one possibility that hasn't been brought up is some sort of belief/faith variant. So far nobody has mentioned faith at all, though that would be something more directed towards the god than an attribute of the god.

I absolutely disagree with Revolution as a shard since the violent overthrow is ridiculous as an attribute, and the sudden change aspect is pretty well covered by Cultivation. And if that doesn't cover it, there is likely some sort of knowledge/invention/reasoning Shard, and that could cover anything left over. Beyond that, the intent you describe would be hard to work into a story, I would think. In fact, I like the idea of a Shard of Reason or Logic. The entire planet it's on might end up like Azir, though.

@ROSHtaFARian2.0, good job on that interpretation, I would say that most of it accurately presents things. I don't think it is enough to fully describe the relationships between Shards, and I would also say there is no evidence that the Shards have to be evenly split down the spectrum. I would bet, if anything, that most of them would fall pretty close to the center of the spectrum.

Not to raise my own flag but belief was one of my first suggestions on this very long thread, back on March 2.

Quote

Cognitive

Honor – the obligation to do what you say you will do, to be consistent

Variability – to be inconsistent, to change from moment to moment

Enlightenment – to seek knowledge and understanding

Belief – to have unchanging views

I agree with the idea and think it's quite likely, more as consistency of viewpoint than true blind faith, but I think it's an important one. I think you're a bit harsh on Revolution but I tend to agree with you that it's the most unlikely.

I also agree that these all being actual Shards is unlikely and that the divisions won't be so even and opposing. But I still think this thread is great for prompting ideas and that some of these ideas will turn out to be right especially @Khyrindor's, @ZenBossanova's and (perhaps) mine.

[ZenBossanova]

On 3/10/2017 at 1:36 AM, Khyrindor said:

So, with authority, if we apply this logic (below) to at least this set of four Shards, it works out nicely.

If "External" correlates to "to others," and "Internal" correlates to "to yourself"

And "Pushing" means it's "your choice," and Pulling means it's "other's choice."

Then we can work out a pattern:

Internal Push: Autonomy: Your "authority" to yourself, because of your choice. You're deciding to be autonomous, answering only to yourself.

Internal Pull: Charisma: Your "authority" to yourself, because of other's choices. Other people choose to be loyal to you because of a trait you posses. (I'm less sure of the Intent, but I like how it fits the pattern)

External Push: Devotion: Your "authority" to others, because of your choice. You chose to be loyal to a person or a cause.

External Pull: Dominion: Your "authority" to others, because of other's choice. Others have used power to command you, or have demanded authority over you.

 

I liked this idea. 

So, while I grouped according to Physical, Cognitive, Temporal, Spiritual, if you organize it right, you can also group it according to Authority, Desire, Sense, and Change. 

Each Internal/External pair will be in one of the first group, and one of the second group. My predictions are a little different, but what particularly interests me is how they are organized. If we can figure out the organization, then figuring out the shards will be relatively easy. I followed the Feruchemy chart organization. It gives a very natural way to group it in several different ways. 

I drew out the chart, because it is easier to see graphically. 

Or should I have written it out in text? 

 

Shards2.PDF

Edited March 16, 2017 by ZenBossanova
correct PDF

[Thanatos]

I hope my Terror shard theory is true. 

Quite like that one.

[Jondesu]

7 hours ago, Thanatos said:

I hope my Terror shard theory is true. 

Quite like that one.

I don't see how Terror could be considered a godly attribute, though, so it wouldn't make sense.

[Rasarr]

2 hours ago, Jondesu said:

I don't see how Terror could be considered a godly attribute, though, so it wouldn't make sense.

I'd say Terror is very much a godly attribute. If we go with the Christian God (and Brandon's Adonalsium is probably based on this one), you've got dozens of examples of God putting a serious fear of him into the puny mortals. Killing fistborn, giant floods, destroying city walls, blinding a man... Even if we go beyond Christianity, gods are often presented as rather terrifying.

Edit: Unless you understood "Terror" as in "The Shard is terrified at all times". Then yeah, it's not very divine.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Rasarr

[ZenBossanova]

Call it "Convincing" and put it where I put Charisma (for lack of a better word), and it functions much the same. 

[Thanatos]

Heres my theory or thought on the terror shard.

 

What if this Shard that just wants to hide is worse than Odium?

The intent of 'Terror'.

To terrified to sleep lest something deadly occurs.

To terrified to eat lest it eat something deadly.

To terrified to breathe lest it breathe something deadly.

To terrified to... well you get the picture.

(I say it as we dont know the sex of the shard holder)

Now why do i say it could be worse then Odium?

Playing along the lines of this being true, then what happens when a lion backs a terrified mouse into a corner? The mouse will attack.

I can see Odium catching up with Terror and backing it into a corner, only for the intent of Terror to flip back onto itself.

And he who was Terrified, now becomes Terrifying. A force of pure terror greater than Odium.

Then you have 2 shards that need contending with or if Terror destroys Odium during their confrontation.

..

Also Jondesu, Deimos is the greek god of terror. So it is a godly attribute. Like Giffith says to Guts about gods and demons.. 'is there a difference?'

Thanatos 

[Kaladin Zahel]

I really enjoyed reading this thread and wanted to add some thoughts and speculation.

Brandon has said that the 17th shard forum people tend to 'overthink' his system. This led me to try some thesaurus research and this what I've noticed/perceived:

 

Odium has an antonym to honor, and devotion has an antonym to odium. So for me the 3 are representative of 1 segment of adonalsium.

Going down a rabbit-hole of synonyms, I found preservation and cultivation to share many results. And ruin was the antonym for preservation and very related to undoing/countering cultivation. This is another segment.

Autonomy and dominion aren't quite antonyms but do differ greatly when described from the stand point of control. This is part of a segment but I feel we are missing a shard here.

EDIT: Servitude is an antonym of both these shards so it may complete this segment. And I can see Servitude being a cosmere negative if there is not a shard balancing out its nature.

For ambition, the closest I could come to a godly antonym was humility. Again I theorize this to be another part of a segment with a shard missing here. EDIT: Other possibilities being Charity(though that seems close to Endowment) and Hubris/Pride though that would possible make this segment more negative.

For endowment, I figured the ulitmate God for the cosmere would have had a 'limitation' built into adonalsium and this would be endowment's antonym loosely.

 

The thing I noticed when separating and organizing these shards was that each shard has a natural positive/negative leaning. And as I believe adonalsium was overall a good being, I think for every negative attribute there must be at least 2 positive attributes.

 

So my shardic breakdown looks like this:

Positive - Negative - Positive

Honor - Odium - Devotion

Preservation - Ruin - Cultivation

Autonomy - Servitude - Dominion

Humility/(Charity) - (Hubris) - Ambition

Endowment - Limitation - ?

And for the 16th shard, I feel it is both unrelated and necessary to the whole: Consciousness/Awareness

 

If anyone would like to take a stab at completing my theory or completely tearing it down, I welcome you.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Kaladin Zahel