TWD - Chapter 03 - kaisa 02/27/16 (V*) 3850 words

[kais]

V* = a mention of violence in the past

I guess I’ll just keep up with the subs on this then, since no one has gouged their eyes out yet.

TWD is dark adult fantasy, and also likely the result of being forced to watch too much Disney recently, thanks to my two year old daughter. This is draft zero. I’m sorry for that. Everything and anything is open to edits, but at this stage LBLs are less useful than overall feelings about tension, character development, text flow, etc. This is also my first experiment with first person, so be warned there. Also be warned that I am delving much deeper into #ownvoices land with the protag than I usually do. 

 

[aeromancer]

TAIG: Blood on clothes scares people. I have a pretty high tolerance for blood, but if I see blood on someone’s clothes, I would be scared, not from blood, but from what they did to get the blood on them. I don’t think blood stains on clothes was that common in the Middle Ages, unless you were a butcher, but S is not a butcher, so I’d be slightly scared. ... “Want to tell me why you’re here, dressed for the fair against regulation, and sopping wet?” -Good question. ‘Sopping wet’ implies dripping. Unless you’re in the thick of the Amazon Rainforest, S would have dried by now ... Locked room mystery? This is getting good ... “Alchemy was straightforward—an extrapolation of the natural with clearly defined limits.” -Ah… sure? Transmutation has some pretty clearly defined limits, I suppose. Limits: The mass of the earth. Excellent limit. I'm getting weird vibes about what alchemy is, and I don't like them.

Notes: The Q-guard are a bit better, but they still don’t give the impression of professionalism that I expect from some with a name like Q-guard, which implies somewhat of an elite group. If you want, I could take a closer look to see what gives me that impression. Also, the woodcutter guild seem really strong. Now, I suppose that strapping men whacking at trees would be pretty strong, but the guild seems mostly into woodcarving and dyes, which wouldn’t stack well with against, say, a blacksmith’s guild.

So, speaking of locked-room mysteries, time to apply Holmes’ methods to the RD’s calloused and ink-stained hand. As mentioned earlier, she undertook blacksmith training and the callouses indicate that she still works in the smithy, which is a pretty time-consuming process. Most likely, she forged her own dagger. The ink-stained hands means that she can write and (more importantly) does so on a consistent basis, instead of having a scribe do it for her. Meaning, the RD is attempting to be as self-sufficient as possible, and doesn’t want people working for her. That's a lot of deductive work for for five words.

I'm also excited for next week, because, hopefully, the universal gender-neutral pronoun will be introduced so I can stop pronoun-dodging with S and use that instead.

[Robinski]

I’m nowhere near gouging my eyes out; I'm enjoying it. Sor is at the same time feisty/combative, and yet also vulnerable. Maybe there is a bit of inconsistency in that, but both are compelling traits, for very different reasons, obvs. Anyway, I haven’t even started reading yet!!

• “Everything was still empty” – it was the house that was still empty, surely. At best, ‘everywhere was still empty’.

• Wait, super confused. They opened the door, and then they stood…? They last thing I want when the guards are discovered is a flashback to how Sor felt when they stood up.

• “dressed for the fair against regulation” – either I don’t remember or I don’t know in the first place; regardless, I'm still confused.

• ‘grand master’ is bothering me – two words or hyphenated or one word? All are acceptable, it seems.

• “She took a meeting with the queen at the palace, and neither came back out. Vanished.” – I think this is a great set-up, a good, strong mystery to power the first part of the story. This aspect I also find more compelling than the early plot driver(s) in AFD. It’s clean, uncomplicated (at its core, setting aside the queen’s apparently kidnapping) and easy to identify with.

• “He was well-shaven” – did you mean clean-shaven? ‘well’ is a phrase I’ve never heard.

• “The line of his mouth kept changing, a stronger visual indication than he perhaps wanted” – Indication of what? We aren’t told.

• “I held no substantial nostalgia for” – that’s some awkward language right there.

• “and sidestepped into the alley” – no, the blocking’s lost me now. The two were in the alley before, were they not?

• “could make my torso somehow smaller” – Is the torso not below the chest? Even if it’s the whole trunk from neck to navel, isn’t it only the chest that they want to make smaller?

• “There was the level-headedness of the guard that I expected” – I’m really pleased with how you’ve dealt with the Queens-guard, making them competent and respected, such a good change from the Keystone Cops approach that it so common in fantasy, either that or the Wermacht. This makes a nice change.

• “It was still a master of the Eastgate mason guild” – masterpiece?

• I can’t remember who Mag is, but I recall her being mentioned before. Maybe just WRS.

Another solid chapter for me; usual tidying up, but I enjoyed the progress. More of a sequel in terms of pace and consideration of their new situation, but no worse for that. Not getting a strong impression of Mag’s character at this point, and Sor is really quite passive in this one, being led from pillar to post (to pub), but we shall see.

<R>

[kais]

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

but I'm a little surprised that the Queensguard believed S. so easily. I mean, is there any proof that they are who they say they are?

This is a very good point. Edited.

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

Also, I admit I'm getting lost in the world building

I think I'll send out the frontmatter form with the next chapter, that has the guild lists and the country they are held in on it. That should help things.

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

Is magic this rare and this powerful?

I'm alright with this catch. I want to leave magic hanging for another few chapters.

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

then why don't they want to go there and see the place where it happened? It reads as if there was some prejudice against Queensguard after all

If it's reading that way, then all is well. On track!

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

Is there a reason why S. shouldn't tell the Queensguards that they were attacked and nearly kidnapped?

No reason at all. I guess it just didn't come up in conversation? Once S remembers the binding, the flow of conversation is pretty dead. 

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

S. reads paranoid to me here

Agreed. I was looking more for defeated, so I've edited.

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

wanders alone shortly after her mother got kidnapped?

Yes, yes she does. If it pings as strange, that works just fine. 

21 hours ago, Ernei said:

I feel like S. was unnecessarily uncooperative in their interactions with the Queensguards

I agree that this was muddled. I've hopefully cleared it up some. Thank you for the feedback!

[kais]

16 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Blood on clothes scares people

This is a very good point. I've edited so that only S really notices. The guards have other things on their minds.

16 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Unless you’re in the thick of the Amazon Rainforest

And in fact...!!

16 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Alchemy was straightforward—an extrapolation of the natural with clearly defined limits.” -Ah… sure? Transmutation has some pretty clearly defined limits, I suppose. Limits: The mass of the earth. Excellent limit. I'm getting weird vibes about what alchemy is, and I don't like them.

I'm looking forward to your comments on chapter five, where this dichotomy is very clearly spelled out. What I'm after is the time period where chemistry is still considered part of alchemy, but is just starting to break away. So there should be some dissension in the ranks as it were, of what constitutes alchemy, what constitutes magic, and eventually, breaking into a new chemistry field. It'd be nice to know if I actually manage to pull this off (and if the inherent parallels with the other main story line work).

16 hours ago, aeromancer said:

If you want, I could take a closer look to see what gives me that impression.

Yes, I would appreciate this. They haven't done anything, really, so I'm not sure how much time I should really spend developing their skills and sort of air. They act very differently than the not-guards who tried to kidnap S, in terms of social graces. Do you think they need something more than that in these early chapters?

16 hours ago, aeromancer said:

That's a lot of deductive work for for five words.

But lovely and spot on!

16 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I'm also excited for next week, because, hopefully, the universal gender-neutral pronoun will be introduced so I can stop pronoun-dodging with S and use that instead.

Uh oh. Should we break the news to him, @Mandamon?

Thank you for the comments! 

 

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Wait, super confused. They opened the door, and then they stood…? They last thing I want when the guards are discovered is a flashback to how Sor felt when they stood up.

Hah. Typo. Thanks

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

either I don’t remember or I don’t know in the first place; regardless, I'm still confused.

WRS from last week. Alchemy fair is being shut down and you're not supposed to wear the tools openly.

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

did you mean clean-shaven?

Yes, yes I did.

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

hat’s some awkward language right there

My thought was to have S speak somewhat akin to an academic, with unnecessary words on occasion. Maybe its just irritating to read.

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

the blocking’s lost me now.

Cleared this up, I hope

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

isn’t it only the chest that they want to make smaller?

Quite right!

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

I can’t remember who Mag is, but I recall her being mentioned before. Maybe just WRS

Mentioned a few times in Ch1. The smith with the queer name. She's been alluded to in several ways throughout chapters one and two, but this is the first time I've deliberately introduced her, so probably okay if you don't remember her from previous.

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

More of a sequel in terms of pace and consideration of their new situation, but no worse for that.

Agreed. Likely because chapters two and three used to be one chapter, and I split them due to length and the arc being weird (and a lovely suggestion from @Mandamon). 

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

Not getting a strong impression of Mag’s character at this point

Aheh. Next chapter. 

9 hours ago, Robinski said:

and Sor is really quite passive in this one, being led from pillar to post (to pub),

Yeah, I didn't do a good job of explaining why this is. I've edited accordingly, I hope. Thank you as always, for the crit!

[Robinski]

46 minutes ago, kaisa said:

with unnecessary words on occasion

Lol - mission accomplished.

47 minutes ago, kaisa said:

so probably okay if you don't remember her from previous.

Yeah, no issue, just WRS.

[Mandamon]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Uh oh. Should we break the news to him?

Heh--still having trouble with this myself in LBL comments. I think it works in the book, but I've had to come up with some creative phrasing while commenting!

[aeromancer]

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

Yes, I would appreciate this. They haven't done anything, really, so I'm not sure how much time I should really spend developing their skills and sort of air. They act very differently than the not-guards who tried to kidnap S, in terms of social graces. Do you think they need something more than that in these early chapters?

Social grace is better, but they don't really have a sense of professionalism. Here are some thoughts.

“they stood too straight and their red capes were too clean and well pressed.” So, this is the start of it, I suppose. Looking prim and proper is nice, but to look like that on patrol, instead of utilitarian wear, isn’t a sign of professionalism. Also, S accidentally steps on one (with bloodstains on S’s clothes) and the guard’s reaction is to ask her questions, instead of reflexively put S in a hold. They also seem somewhat unsure of their actions, like when they take S in. That, and they should have a basic understanding of alchemy, which they apparently don’t have. I guess I feel there should be a set protocol for dealing with alchemists like ‘take all pouches’ and ‘bind hands’.

3 hours ago, kaisa said:

Uh oh. Should we break the news?

S doesn't use pronouns at all, then?

[kais]

21 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

S doesn't use pronouns at all, then?

I was going to see if I could manage to go pronoun-less the whole book for S. I can't find one I like that would also work for the period, and I don't care for they (while I wholly support those who do use it!). It also might be fun to have it be a point of consternation between M and S in book two, when M just gets fed up with it. Unsure. For right now, alas, we get to be creative with sentence structure.

Thanks for the thoughts on the guards. I'll play around tonight and see if I can get them to come up a little better.

[Robinski]

55 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I was going to see if I could manage to go pronoun-less the whole book for S.

I don't feel that would be an issue in terms of pronouns, but I wonder if it is making it harder to people to grasp S's character? Don't know - maybe not, as you've expressed how you sometimes toil over that anyway.

[industrialistDragon]

If you're looking for a "big name" author's experiment with this, John Scalzi's "Lock-In" is written in the first person entirely without pronouns for the main character. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by industrialistDragon

[kais]

8 hours ago, Ernei said:

On the serious note though, does it mean that I should stop using "they" too? I admit that it might be difficult, but if it doesn't fit here, then I'll at least try not to use any pronouns.

I think we can give 'they' a pass for now, because it respects the nonbinary nature of S and just asking people to jump around pronouns right off the bat is a little rough. I'm not speaking for all nonbinary people, mind, just for this character in my book, in this forum, I think they is acceptable as a workaround until one becomes comfortable not using pronouns. Any of the gender neutral pronouns would be fine, too, as a temporary workaround here. 

[Robinski]

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

asking people to jump around pronouns right off the bat is a little rough

I'm going go this way anyway - #loveachallenge

[rdpulfer]

- I liked the visual distinction between the Queenguards and the pretenders.

- I also liked that you spell out what Sorin is trying to accomplish here.

- I liked the suspense of the chapter. You really do well establishing why Sorin definitely needs help, and what obstacles or standing in her way.

- That said, I didn't feel she was in any danger with the Queenguard, even when they were questioning her - it felt like an improvement of her current status. The Queenguard might need to be a little more harsher to build up the tension. 

[kais]

3 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

The Queenguard might need to be a little more harsher to build up the tension.

Would you say the tension suffers because there is no real thread from the guards? Or can the chapter stand alone without that part? 

Thank you for the feedback! Note though - remember, S isn't female, so female pronouns shouldn't be used. Per above if you need to use a pronoun, 'they' will work fine for S.

[Hobbit]

On March 1, 2017 at 10:23 PM, kaisa said:

Would you say the tension suffers because there is no real thread from the guards? Or can the chapter stand alone without that part? 

I found the tension in this scene had more to do with how worried Sor is about whether the guards are a threat. They don't come off as a threat to me, the reader, but the fact that Sor thinks they are gives the scene tension.

I like the fact that you don't have to use pronouns for Sor in the narrative. I think it gives the reader another way to get into to Sor's mindset.

Alright, my initial reactions to the chapter:

Hm. I liked this chapter. However, Sor’s fatigue and pain ended up feeling like a bit of a cop-out for more complex feelings when zie meets Mag. It just felt a little less impactful than I wanted it to, given all the foreshadowing you did about their meeting. I’m glad Sor’s getting some allies, though.

I thought the Queensguard came off well -- knowledgeable, competent, and a nice contrast from the pretenders in chapter 1. (I see now that @aeromancer had some issues here -- I didn't get his impression off the bat, but I can see his point with their lack of knowledge about alchemy.)

Your setting continues to be rich, and I get a good sense for each place Sor goes through. I like the constant noticing of plants and other growths — it makes me very happy.

Just a few specifics:

Argomemnon
Hahahaaaa what's Agamemnon doing here? Sounds like agro-memnon? Agricultural Agamemonon? Oooh, or are you going for Jason and the Argonauts meets Trojan War? (This was really funny, but it did throw me out of the narrative.)

“The cord,” I gasped.
Seems a bit out of place; I’m not sure why Sor says it until I read the next sentence. Maybe switch their places?

My shoulder was too badly bruised and the resulting pain almost sent me to my knees.
This seems a little extreme? Though I haven’t taken a fall on my shoulder on stone recently. I think I'm just getting fatigued of Sor being the victim -- which might be part of your point. Not sure.

She laid the damp leather across my torso and pulled the laces tightly together,
Where exactly is this sitting? Lower ribs? Above the breasts? I can’t picture it, especially with Sor trying to hide breasts, not showcase them.

[rdpulfer]

On 3/1/2017 at 9:23 PM, kaisa said:

Would you say the tension suffers because there is no real thread from the guards? Or can the chapter stand alone without that part? 

Thank you for the feedback! Note though - remember, S isn't female, so female pronouns shouldn't be used. Per above if you need to use a pronoun, 'they' will work fine for S.

Sorry for the pronoun mix-up - chalk it up to weekly reader syndrome  I think it's correct that the tension suffers since the guards themselves aren't threatening - which does make this since these are the much more professional, genuine article. But the threat could take another form, like the possibility they won't help Sorin in some way, or perhaps just send him on his way altogether. 

[kais]

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

It just felt a little less impactful than I wanted it to, given all the foreshadowing you did about their meeting

Check. I'll poke this. 

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

I like the constant noticing of plants and other growths — it makes me very happy.

 

I'm happy someone other than me is nerding out over it!!

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

This was really funny, but it did throw me out of the narrative

If this is the only instance of the name, do you think it can stay? I just found the blend too enticing to pass up.

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

I think I'm just getting fatigued of Sor being the victim -- which might be part of your point. Not sure.

Yes! It should get better in chapter four, but yes, I wanted this to be a journey for S on several fronts, including self-motivation.

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Where exactly is this sitting? Lower ribs? Above the breasts?

Hrm. Supposed to be diagonal. I'll try to better explain. Thank you for the comments!

 

[Hobbit]

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

If this is the only instance of the name, do you think it can stay?

Well... honestly, I think you should disguise it a little more if you want it to stay. To me it feels awkward. As I read it I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point about the Greeks, or if you're just name-cheating. But of course, it's your story! If no one else notices, then I suppose you're good (and more people need to read the Iliad.)

[Robinski]

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

If no one else notices

I noticed, but was too polite (or was it forgetful? Can't remember.) to say anything  

I agree with Hobbit, if you're not trying to work in some so-deep-it's-subteranian link to Greek mythology, and it's just logophilia then I too think you need to change it up a bit more.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Robinski