Bondsmiths and the Spiritual Realm

[Blightsong]

The recent Oathbringer prologue and it's subsequent discussion got me thinking on a theory I had way back when WoR was released, and I think I have some pretty convincing evidence in its favor now.

 

I think that the Bondsmiths are able to directly and purposefully affect the spiritual realm and the spiritual aspect of individuals. A relevant quote on the Bondsmiths is as follows:

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." - WoR Chapter 58 Epigraph
 

This Epigraph heavily implies that this Bondsmith created Parshmen out of Listeners, that the method used is specific to Bondsmiths, and that it relates to "the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties" which I strongly suspect is referencing the Spiritual Realm.

 

I think that this power would function similarly to the effects of hemallurgic chimeras, but dependent on the Bondsmith's will rather than knowledge of spiritual bind-points and a physical spiking. If my theory is correct then it makes the below Hoid conversation much more intelligible and slightly prophetic, especially since Brandon has said that everything Hoid says in this conversation is significant:

"[Wit] looked directly at [Dalinar]. "Adonalsium."
Dalinar frowned more deeply. "What?"
“Nothing,” Wit said. He seemed preoccupied, unlike his usual self. “Nonsense. Balderdash. Figgldygrak. Isn’t it odd that gibberish words are often the sounds of other words, cut up and dismembered, then stitched into something like them—yet wholly unlike them at the same time?”
Dalinar frowned.
“I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian. If you do put a man together like that, Dalinar, be sure to name him Gibberish, after me. Or perhaps Gibletish.”

 

I also think that it explains what Dalinar is seeing in WoR in the below passage:

"Dalinar stood in darkness. He turned about, trying to remember how he’d come to this place. In the shadows, he saw furniture. Tables, a rug, drapes from Azir with wild colors. His mother had always been proud of those drapes. My home, he thought. As it was when I was a child. Back before conquest, back before Gavilar . . . Gavilar . . . hadn’t Gavilar died? No, Dalinar could hear his brother laughing in the next room. He was a child. They both were. Dalinar crossed the shadowed room, feeling the fuzzy joy of familiarity. Of things being as they should be. He’d left his wooden swords out. He had a collection, each carved like a Shardblade. He was too old for those now, of course, but he still liked having them. As a collection. He stepped to the balcony doors and pushed them open. Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well."

 

Let me know what you guys think and what the implications could be if this theory turns out to be correct.
 

[Gizmosowner]

Seems pretty interesting. If I'm understanding this correctly which I probably not then they can manipulate the Spiritual Realm and if they were able to create the Parshendi then they might be able to change themselves so they can see into the spiritual realm and gain an ability not unlike Atium

[duladen]

I suspect there is a connection to this passage as well:

Quote

“But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. ”

Question is: what is the ability of Ishar and the Bondsmiths that allows them to destroy groups of beings?

I like your theory about the Listeners being made into Parshmen by the Bondsmiths. I believe there is a WOB that says that if a Parshendi took a Parshmen into a highstorm, they would not be able to bond a spren (but the Everstorm will change this). It makes sense that if they became Parshmen by their own methods, it would be more easily reversed than if it happened forcibly at the hands of the Bondsmiths.

[+Extesian]

I like this @Blightsong. My big question is whether it can be done against the person's will. I suspect not with the nature of Honor, which is about being bound by your own choices generally.  I think if you're right about turning Parshendi into Parshmen it's because 'they' agreed to it to be freed from Odium, and if the application of it is right in terms of binding the KR to the oaths it's because they also agreed to it to avoid being destroyed. But that yes when someone agrees a Bondsmith can make that bond magically enforceable.

If a Bondsmith can do it forcefully I'd feel a lot more dodgy about it.

[Zmann966]

X-post from my comment on your reddit post:

 

I see the Melishi epigraph as a whole, where all of it is required to understand it.

"Solve the voidbringer problem" we know was solved by creating parshmen.
"Related to the herald's divine duties" of which we know they must leave Roshar and go to Damnation to stop the Desolation (stop Odium+Voidbringers from being around on Roshar). It's speculated that the heralds have some kind of link to the enemy, and that they appear on Roshar together. This is mirrored in:
And we know that the parshendi/shin/ghostbloods/Sons'o'Honor were all focused on the Voidbringers returning, and that the return of the spren and Radiants is linked to it.

Bondsmiths abilities (I'm speculating) have to do with the nahel bond itself. Supporting evidence being in that we know the Stormfather is the figurative "father" of honorspren, and that it does have some influence over Syl's bonding of Kal. But also, we know the Radiants broke their bonds, "killed" their spren, and abandoned humanity.
This is what I see that epigraph pointing towards. The Heralds keep Odium away by locking all of them in Damnation (Braize) together. The Bondsmiths killed the nahel-bonds of the Knights (the Recreance) so that the Voidbringers would ALSO lose their spren-bond, thus becoming the "songless" parshmen.

The quote @duladen posted above supports this as well, as it could be argued that it's meaning is that the Bondsmiths created/maintain the *Oaths of the Immortal Words* for all ten orders.


The bondsmiths broke the bonds of Spren on Roshar. And killed off the Knights—and the Voidbringers.


 

The Hoid passage has always given me pause, it's obvious that there's reference to the Shattering, and the long-held theory that Hoid is attempting to "recombine" the pieces (shards) [though this hints at him trying to recombine Adonalsium into something different than the original]—I keep circling around the literal meaning hidden in plain sight: "Adonalsium" being a word composed of pieces of other words. So far this has gotten me nowhere though, as there is far too many references it could be. But I don't see it being connected here.

[DustBringer94]

On 2/24/2017 at 6:14 PM, Blightsong said:

This Epigraph heavily implies that this Bondsmith created Parshmen out of Listeners, that the method used is specific to Bondsmiths, and that it relates to "the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties" which I strongly suspect is referencing the Spiritual Realm.

well in the prologue Gavalar says to Eshonni “The parshmen were like you once. We stopped their ability  [to enter the?]  transformation somehow by capturing a spren. A very ancient, very important spren.” He looked to her, his eyes alight. “I’ve seen how I can reverse it.  A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.” to me it would seem that he is referring to what the Bondsmiths did.

 

[Blightsong]

On 6/4/2017 at 1:16 PM, Zmann966 said:

This is what I see that epigraph pointing towards. The Heralds keep Odium away by locking all of them in Damnation (Braize) together. The Bondsmiths killed the nahel-bonds of the Knights (the Recreance) so that the Voidbringers would ALSO lose their spren-bond, thus becoming the "songless" parshmen.

The quote @duladen posted above supports this as well, as it could be argued that it's meaning is that the Bondsmiths created/maintain the *Oaths of the Immortal Words* for all ten orders.

Why would the Listener's still retain their forms in that case? Also, the bond that the Listeners use is different from the Nahel bond, so I dont see how affecting the Nahel bond would affect the Voidbringers even if thats something the Bondsmiths are able to do.

[Jofwu]

I really like Zmann's theory here. Has this been expounded elsewhere?

A long time passes after the last Desolation. Things start happening and the Radiants and/or Heralds are wondering if another Desolation is on its way. We know that the Radiants were fighting "demons" on the front lines when the Recreance happened, just as is described in the Melishi epigraph. So what do you do? You short circuit the full Desolation. Knock out the ability of the Voidbringers to come into being and the Desolation can't happen. Right? Maybe? Worth a shot. Only the realmatic trick that makes this possible will ALSO destroy every existing Radiant bond. (for reasons we can only speculate on) How do you get ALL the Radiants to break their oaths? You convince them (perhaps mistakenly) that doing so will prevent the Desolation from going forward. Perhaps under the direction of Ishi, given some things said about him in Edgedancer. The Radiants who show up at Feverstone Keep are just donating their weapons to the cause ("Here, you'll need these to clean up when we're gone.").

It's not perfect. What about the Skybreakers? Perhaps some small number of Radiants left behind wouldn't make a difference. So Nale and the Skybreakers (perhaps at a smaller size) are charged with preventing the return of Surgebinders.

@Blightsong, I think the existence of some normal Listeners is a mistake. They turned MOST of them into Parshmen, but some escaped that fate. (maybe they weren't present... maybe they took on dullform to escape their fate...) As for why breaking the nahel bonds was necessary... We can only guess. But realmatics can be crazy stuff. And I don't think it necessarily conflicts with the heart of your own theory here. It would still require the Bondsmiths to have some active role in the process. It's just that the broken bonds are necessary in that process, for some reason.

[Stormlightning]

The Parshendi didn't hesitate to kill Gavilar when he wanted to bring their gods back. That makes it sound like the the Parshendi would have gladly given up their forms in favor of slaveform if it meant banishing those gods. In the prologue, Eshonai assumes that the parshmen are being protected or watched over by the humans, which would make sense if her people left their forms believing it would save the world. I really like your theory because of how well that works.

That suggests that the Parshendi who escaped by adopting dullform instead were traitors who didn't think the change would work or just wanted to save themselves. Maybe if they'd all abandoned their forms, it would have actually worked, after all, who would have summoned the everstorm then? Or perhaps they were insightful enough to understand that, somehow, adopting slaveform wouldn't work permanently. Even if it did halt the cycle for a long time.

Life as a Parshendi would be terrible. "I'm being controlled by evil Spren who want to destroy everything. In order to save my own planet from myself, I have to give up my identity. Be destroyed or be nobody. Great."

3 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Why would the Listener's still retain their forms in that case? Also, the bond that the Listeners use is different from the Nahel bond, so I dont see how affecting the Nahel bond would affect the Voidbringers even if thats something the Bondsmiths are able to do.

I feel like it's reasonable to believe that any bond would be connected to Honor. They may not use the Nahel bond, but it would be awfully harsh to ask the Listeners to make such a big sacrifice on behalf of mankind without asking any sacrifice from the humans. Maybe negating their Nahel bonds was a form of honoring the sacrifice of the Listeners.

[Zmann966]

It's nowhere near perfect, true. But it's also just a theory of mine, only based on currently-available info.

The fact that the epigraph kinda says that Ishi/Bondsmiths created and "enforce" the Oaths lends credence I didn't even initially think about. 
Sure the Parshendi don't have a nahel bond, but there is some kind of bond between them and spren. The theory relies on, naturally, the currently unexpounded-upon Bondsmith powers and that they can affect spren and the cognitive and bonds overall in some way.


But it *makes sense* otherwise. Most theories are based on logically-researched evidence, but I'll admit this initially cropped up for me based on literary and character evidence, the rational was built backwards from that (I know! Finding evidence to fit an argument! Scientific faux-pas!) 
You realize/find out that there is no such thing as peace by force. If your army exists, the other will always come back. The only way to stop the mutually-cyclical apocalyptic battles is to get rid of both sides? That sounds exactly like the type of play an honorable man would make.
Much better to live in a de-militarized peace than in constant combat.

[Jofwu]

4 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

I feel like it's reasonable to believe that any bond would be connected to Honor.

I disagree with this. Listeners and spren were on Roshar before Honor arrived, and I see no reason to assume they nature changed significantly after.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I disagree with this. Listeners and spren were on Roshar before Honor arrived, and I see no reason to assume they nature changed significantly after.

I agree Jofwu. The proliferation of natural bonds on Roshar, and Honor's innate connection to bonds is why Honor chose Roshar to settle on.

His intent plays well with the way the planet already functions. So Honor creates bonds, but not all bonds are of Honor.