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Adhesion and Windrunning


I'm a Seawolf!

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Hello everyone.  This is my first time posting.  I have been reading these forums for a while and had a thought that I wanted to share.  I apologise in advance for the length.
 
The main idea is that the Adhesion surge does more then just the "full lashing".  It, not gravitation, is the primary way that Windrunners fly.
 
First some analysis of the Adhesion surge itself.  I think the name "Adhesion" is very misleading as it is not the "surge of sticking things together" but the "surge of atmospheric pressure".  I think that the "full lashing" functions by reducing the air pressure between two things.  This would create a vacuum that suction cups the objects together.
 
Furthermore, I believe that the "reverse lashing" is not an application of Gravitation, but instead of Adhesion.  I know that most of the documentation states that "reverse lashing" belongs to Gravitation, but is there a definite WOB on that?  If it is just stated in the text of the books/Ars arcanums then it could be incorrect.  Mr. Sanderson has stated that the Ars Arcanums are limited to the knowledge of the characters in their respective book, which is why they changed throughout the Mistborn novels.  If we remove the assumption that the "Reverse Lashing" needs to be part of "Gravitation", then does anyone else think that it does not mesh well with the rest of the surge?  The vast majority of the time when someone uses "Gravitation", it is in the form of the "Basic Lashing", which seems to take an object and make it fall in a direction other then the center of mass of the planet.  How would the "Reverse Lashing" fit into this equation?  Increasing the gravitational attraction of the applied object?  Instead, under Adhesion, the "Reverse Lashing" could function by creating a low-pressure area on one or more sides of an object, turning it into a vacuum cleaner.  This is essentially the same as the "Full Lashing" minus the second object.
 
Finally, I think that there is much more that Adhesion can do.  Remember that Adhesion allows the user to control atmospheric pressure.  Wind is nothing more then air moving from a high-pressure area to a low-pressure area; This would imply that a sufficiently skilled user could manipulate the pressure of the air around them allowing them to control the winds!  On a large enough scale this would allow one to control the weather.  On a smaller scale, one could control the winds in their immediate area which would blow around anything light enough.
 
Conveniently, Windrunners can use gravitation to adjust their weight, thus making them light enough to be blown around!  This would imply that Windrunners would have access to a method of flying other then using Gravitation to adjust their falling trajectory.  Maybe a quick fall into the sky to take off followed by a nullifying of weight then using Adhesion to go where you want to go.  This would explain the name of the order if they literally used the "Wind" to move around quickly or "run".
 
We have seen a similar concept for flying in Mistborne.  This is how the Southerner Scadrian's flying ships work.  The crew zeros-out their weight with feruchemy and then uses fans to push the ship where it needs to go.
 
Now I know that we have only seen flight achieved via Gravitation, but remember that we are only on book 2 of 10 and Kaladin is only halfway developed as a Windrunner.  There is no reason why he could not figure this out as he continues to advance.  I would like to note that in Kaladin's final duel with Szeth in Words of Radiance he starts out by using Gravitation to fly, but halfway through the battle he specifically tells himself to stop thinking about Gravitation and work on instinct instead.  He could have switched from falling to "windrunning" for the remainder of the battle.
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53 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Interesting theory!

My one counterpoint is this: Skybreakers do not have access to Adhesion, but their name suggests that they can fly like the Windrunners, suggesting that flight is based on Gravitation, which both orders share.

Actually, "Skybreaker" suggests a rather more blunt approach than the grace implicit in "Windrunner". There is no reason that Skybreakers couldn't use Gravitation to get around, thereby delivering their Division-based judgement where it is needed much more quickly, but be inferior in actual aerial maneuverability to Windrunners. Much as Lightweavers and Willshapers can both interact with the cognitive realm, but Elsecallers are considered its masters because both of their surges relate to it directly. I like this theory a lot.

However, I won't ascribe to it, because I believe the Ars Arcanum could be wrong about Adhesion being atmospheric pressure. Is there a WoB on it?

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lends credence to the "the skies belong to the wind runners" saying.

 

also, i think the pressure control also allows windrunners to fly higher, and may have had something to do with why kaladin had all those windspren around him, they were helping him speed up and get to szeth

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Great first post!

We know that Gravitation can provide all (or at least most) of the flight we've seen Kaladin do so far. Edgedancer spoiler

 

Nale, with his Honorblade granting him Gravitation but not Adhesion, is able to make like Superman and fly off at the end of the novella. So Skybreakers can definitely 'fly' with Gravitation.

12 hours ago, I'm a Seawolf! said:

Furthermore, I believe that the "reverse lashing" is not an application of Gravitation, but instead of Adhesion.  I know that most of the documentation states that "reverse lashing" belongs to Gravitation, but is there a definite WOB on that?  If it is just stated in the text of the books/Ars arcanums then it could be incorrect.  Mr. Sanderson has stated that the Ars Arcanums are limited to the knowledge of the characters in their respective book, which is why they changed throughout the Mistborn novels.

[Nitpick] The Ars Arcana are written by Khriss so they're limited by what she knows at the time she writes any given essay, not necessarily by what the natives of the world know. Which is why she can give details about Surgebinding that nobody on Roshar who's not a worldhopper would know, like how Lightweaving is very similar to a pre-Shattering magic system from Yolen [/Nitpick]

All that said, I like the general theory and suspect there's far more to Adhesion than we've seen so far so I won't be surprised if Kaladin and future Windrunners can do things that someone with only access to Gravitation can't.

Edited by Weltall
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13 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Actually, "Skybreaker" suggests a rather more blunt approach than the grace implicit in "Windrunner". There is no reason that Skybreakers couldn't use Gravitation to get around, thereby delivering their Division-based judgement where it is needed much more quickly, but be inferior in actual aerial maneuverability to Windrunners. Much as Lightweavers and Willshapers can both interact with the cognitive realm, but Elsecallers are considered its masters because both of their surges relate to it directly. I like this theory a lot.

However, I won't ascribe to it, because I believe the Ars Arcanum could be wrong about Adhesion being atmospheric pressure. Is there a WoB on it?

Go to the following link and search for "pressure".  There are 4 quotes where Mr. Sanderson refers to adhesion as pressure.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27surgebinding%27

 

6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Interesting theory. How do you explain then that objects touching the ground aren't affected by a reverse lashing though, which the gravitational surge theory does?

Friction with the ground and inertia.  Everything we have seen affected by a reverse lashing (which I believe has just been 2 cases so far) has been flying towards the lashed point already when it was pulled, which would require a lot less energy then getting non-moving objects to go somewhere.  That being said, I reread Khriss's theory on the reverse lashing in Way of Kings after posting and can see how that would work.  I would like to think that gravity works the same in this world as in real life where an object would need a lot of mass to cause a gravitational attraction; we are talking about magic however.

 

14 hours ago, Elenion said:

Interesting theory!

My one counterpoint is this: Skybreakers do not have access to Adhesion, but their name suggests that they can fly like the Windrunners, suggesting that flight is based on Gravitation, which both orders share.

I am not trying to refute the fact that Gravitation can be used to fly.  I am simply saying that Windrunners have access to a separate method through Adhesion that could work better in some way (better control and mobility, greater heights, etc.)  Different abilities could be used to create the same ultimate effects.  We see this in Mistborn where both Soothers and Rioters can get someone to feel a certain way through different methods (soothing unwanted emotions vs rioting wanted ones.)

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36 minutes ago, I'm a Seawolf! said:

Friction with the ground and inertia.  Everything we have seen affected by a reverse lashing (which I believe has just been 2 cases so far) has been flying towards the lashed point already when it was pulled, which would require a lot less energy then getting non-moving objects to go somewhere.  That being said, I reread Khriss's theory on the reverse lashing in Way of Kings after posting and can see how that would work.  I would like to think that gravity works the same in this world as in real life where an object would need a lot of mass to cause a gravitational attraction; we are talking about magic however.

I thought of that. However, that would still mean it's possible, and a reverse lashing would still cause light things lying on the ground nearby to move, so there would be some cause. Furthermore, don't you think that if a negative pressure point was being created, people would've noticed the drop in pressure, such as wind, along with a suction of hair and clothes? Like Kaladin has long hair and he's reversed lashed something right next to his head and not noticed a thing amiss. Szeth as well notes nothing strange like a tugging of his robes towards the door frame which he applied a reverse lashing to, and i would think that a negative pressure able to deviate the flight of spears a short distancr would havr that effect. Furthermore in general, it would be very easy to prove that pressure isn't the cause of the reverse lashing, for above reasons and others, such as where the removed air needed to lower isn't being noticed as having left the area either, that I doubt a Khriss would've missed it.

While real physics obviously couldn't explain how a reverse lashing works, just like it couldn't explain how a basic lashing works, realmatics do provide an explanation. You can't attempt to use classical physics to explain the realmatics of magic, only the outcomes of physical changes. While the idea of manipulating something's spiritual connection to a gravitational center sounds weird, I don't see how it is any weirder than changing your connection in order to speak the language of the land you're currently in. 

Overall, I don't agree with the theory, though it is quite interesting. There has been nothing to indicate that any sort of pressure change is occurring when a reverse lashing is in effect, and that would be very easy to qualify. While realmatic explanation does feel wishy-washy so far, I have no doubt that it will make more sense once we learn more about spiritual realmatics. Furthermore, I see no reason to disqualify it, as well it is not absolute knowledge, it is from a source which is knownot to be quite accurate, and disqualifying on that ground alone doesn't look the be acceptable.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not sure that Adhesion would allow a Windrunner to fly after all Adhesion would just allow someone to create areas of high atmospheric pressure and areas of low atmospheric pressure. That being said however maybe a Windruner could create an area of high pressure behind them and an area of low pressure in front of them causing them to be sucked toward the area of low pressure in a sort of half flight. But overall I thinlk that Gravitation would be a better form of flying.

Edited by Cosmere Savant
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