Nightform- Cultivation's Listener Form? (WoR spoilers)

[Markus]

Please tell me if this idea has been proposed before.

WoB's:

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QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Odium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not originally.

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QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not originally.

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QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No.

These three say to me that the Listeners have Odium-related forms and Cultivation-related forms.  They have no Honor-related forms.  Their other, less magical forms, like artform, dullform, workform, nimbleform, etc. probably predate shardic influence on the planet.  They obviously couldn't survive on their own in slaveform.

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"Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens."

-Song of Secrets Stanza 17

So, Nightform basically predicts the future, something that Cultivation is said to be good at.  Also, it whispers "As the gods did leave".  If the gods are the unmade, it wouldn't make sense for nightform to give a new prophecy as Odium's influence is retreating.

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"Our gods were born splinters of a soul, / Of one who seeks to take control, / Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. / They are his spren, his gift, his price. / But the nightforms speak of future life, / A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite."

-Song of Secrets Final Stanza

I'm assuming that the nightforms refers to the a group of Listeners in nightform.  I originally thought that that meant that there were multiple nightforms, but this interpretation makes more sense to me.  We know that Honor thinks that a champion might work against Odium because all the Shards are bound by rules.  The last line probalby refers to this event, so I think that the future predictions are probably accurate, as Cultivations woud probably be.

There's also the "but" inbetween when the song talks about the Unmade and the nightforms.  To me, this suggests a contrast between nightform and the Unmade-influenced form

And we have the similarity between "nightform" and "Nightwatcher" going for this theory.

Most of the lines about the other forms of power speak about the danger of them.  Examples:

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"Mediationform made for peace, it’s said. / Form of teaching and consolation. / When used by the gods, it became instead / Form of lies and desolation."
	"Stormform is said to cause / A tempest of winds and showers, / Beware its powers, beware its powers. / Though its coming brings the gods their night, / It obliges a bloodred spren. / Beware its end, beware its end."
	"Decayform destroys the souls of dreams. / A form of gods to avoid, it seems. / Seek not its touch, nor beckon its screams, deny it. / Watch where you walk, your toes to tread. / O’er hill or rocky riverbed / Hold dear to fears that fill your head, defy it."
	"Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men. / A form of power, like human Surges. / Bring it ’round again. / Though crafted of gods, / It was by Unmade hand. / Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend."

I copied these straight from coppermind so there is still that large blue box there.  Sorry.

The songs never mention the dangers of Nightform.  It's odd.

It occured to me that one of the objections to this theory might be the Vorin prohibiotions on predicting the future.  But if Cultivation, Honor's girlfriend/wife is good at it, why would Honor's religion object to it?  I think that this was probably caused by the Hierocracy, which I personally believe was influenced/caused by Odium.

 

It seems to me like there are a lot of small hints that add up to a pretty clear conclusion.  Maybe I'm missing something though.  Thoughts?

[Spoolofwhool]

Interesting thought. We really don't have much information so it's hard to really say anything about it. I do however have an objection to part of your perceived objection. (Or is it an objection to your objection of a perceived possible objection?)

2 hours ago, Markus said:

It occured to me that one of the objections to this theory might be the Vorin prohibiotions on predicting the future.  But if Cultivation, Honor's girlfriend/wife is good at it, why would Honor's religion object to it?  I think that this was probably caused by the Hierocracy, which I personally believe was influenced/caused by Odium.

The thing is, I don't think Vorinism knows about Cultivation. As far as we've seen, Vorinism only knows of the Almighty, as the god creator of humanity, and the voidbringers. Nothing has been said about the existence of the other shards in the system. So there's no reason why there could be a possible objection to the banning of prophecy because of Cultivation being good at it, because they don't know she's a thing, any more that they know that Odium is a thing. In any case, Honor could see the future as well, he just wasn't as good at it. Furthermore, the reason why the prohibition on predicting the future exists seems fairly logical. The ardentia gained power during the Hierocracy by claiming that they were receiving messages directly from the Almighty. Once their power was broken, creating the idea that predicting the future is evil is a prevention to make it more difficult for someone to gain power in the same manner, as the people would be opposed to anyone who claimed they were getting visions from the Almighty. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Furthermore, the reason why the prohibition on predicting the future exists seems fairly logical. The ardentia gained power during the Hierocracy by claiming that they were receiving messages directly from the Almighty. Once their power was broken, creating the idea that predicting the future is evil is a prevention to make it more difficult for someone to gain power in the same manner, as the people would be opposed to anyone who claimed they were getting visions from the Almighty. 

Yeah, and IIRC, it's Sunmaker who claimed that the visions were fake, as part of seizing power from the Hierocracy. Given that we know Honor (well, the Stormfather acting as a proxy) did send visions to Dalinar and apparently others, it seems quite possible that the Hierocracy really was telling the truth.

[Markus]

56 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, and IIRC, it's Sunmaker who claimed that the visions were fake, as part of seizing power from the Hierocracy. Given that we know Honor (well, the Stormfather acting as a proxy) did send visions to Dalinar and apparently others, it seems quite possible that the Hierocracy really was telling the truth.

I think I remember a passage that said the visions were proved false because some of them contradicted eachother.  But maybe Sunmaker just made that up.

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The thing is, I don't think Vorinism knows about Cultivation. As far as we've seen, Vorinism only knows of the Almighty, as the god creator of humanity, and the voidbringers. Nothing has been said about the existence of the other shards in the system. So there's no reason why there could be a possible objection to the banning of prophecy because of Cultivation being good at it, because they don't know she's a thing, any more that they know that Odium is a thing. In any case, Honor could see the future as well, he just wasn't as good at it. Furthermore, the reason why the prohibition on predicting the future exists seems fairly logical. The ardentia gained power during the Hierocracy by claiming that they were receiving messages directly from the Almighty. Once their power was broken, creating the idea that predicting the future is evil is a prevention to make it more difficult for someone to gain power in the same manner, as the people would be opposed to anyone who claimed they were getting visions from the Almighty. 

Well, Honor and the Heralds probably influenced the founding of Vorinism, and they probably knew about Cultivation (they knew about Odium at least).  Also, do we know that the visions that the ardentia claimed to see were of the future?  Visions from the Almighty aren't neccesarily prophecies.  For instance, Dalinar's visions were mostly of the past, I think, except for the one from the possible future where Kholinar falls into a pit.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, and IIRC, it's Sunmaker who claimed that the visions were fake, as part of seizing power from the Hierocracy. Given that we know Honor (well, the Stormfather acting as a proxy) did send visions to Dalinar and apparently others, it seems quite possible that the Hierocracy really was telling the truth.

Possible, but unlikely since I don't think there was a need for the visions at that time since the True Desolation wasn't close to coming.

1 hour ago, Markus said:

Well, Honor and the Heralds probably influenced the founding of Vorinism, and they probably knew about Cultivation (they knew about Odium at least).  Also, do we know that the visions that the ardentia claimed to see were of the future?  Visions from the Almighty aren't neccesarily prophecies.  For instance, Dalinar's visions were mostly of the past, I think, except for the one from the possible future where Kholinar falls into a pit.

They didn't know about Odium as far as I can tell. Nowhere, as far as I can tell, had there been mention of any entities on the same level as the Almighty, which would be Odium and Cultivation. The supernatural beings mentioned, as far as I can recall are as follows: the Almighty (Honor); the Heralds; the Voidbringers. Furthermore, when Odium's name was mentioned, I don't remember any sort of recognition.

I don't think they claimed visions of the future, but it's just that visions in general are a tabboo.

[Markus]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

They didn't know about Odium as far as I can tell. Nowhere, as far as I can tell, had there been mention of any entities on the same level as the Almighty, which would be Odium and Cultivation. The supernatural beings mentioned, as far as I can recall are as follows: the Almighty (Honor); the Heralds; the Voidbringers. Furthermore, when Odium's name was mentioned, I don't remember any sort of recognition.

I don't think they claimed visions of the future, but it's just that visions in general are a tabboo.

I meant that the Heralds knew about Odium, but you're right, Vorinism in general doesn't.  I believe Unmade are also mentioned.  I don't think that all visions are a taboo- for instance, no one really says that Dalinar must be inhabited by a voidbringer or something.  They say he is going insane, but not that he is voidbringing.  At the same time, stormwardens are disliked because they do something very similar to predicting the future, and games of chance are banned.  Maybe there is a taboo on visions, but predicting the future seems to be a different and much more serious offence in their culture.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Markus said:

I meant that the Heralds knew about Odium, but you're right, Vorinism in general doesn't.  I believe Unmade are also mentioned.  I don't think that all visions are a taboo- for instance, no one really says that Dalinar must be inhabited by a voidbringer or something.  They say he is going insane, but not that he is voidbringing.  At the same time, stormwardens are disliked because they do something very similar to predicting the future, and games of chance are banned.  Maybe there is a taboo on visions, but predicting the future seems to be a different and much more serious offence in their culture.

They probably say he's going insane because the alternative is one they would rather not dwell on, since all Voidbringers are suppose to be gone. I think there is a scene though where theyou are worried because visions are tabbooed in Vorinism. The coppermind page on the Hierocracy states that visions were the primary problem during the Hierocracy, but all forms were outlawed. 

[Markus]

56 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

They probably say he's going insane because the alternative is one they would rather not dwell on, since all Voidbringers are suppose to be gone. I think there is a scene though where theyou are worried because visions are tabbooed in Vorinism. The coppermind page on the Hierocracy states that visions were the primary problem during the Hierocracy, but all forms were outlawed. 

Oh, I didn't know that.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Spoolofwhool]

13 minutes ago, Markus said:

Oh, I didn't know that.  Thanks for the clarification.

Note that I'm not sure how accurate the coppermind is. I would have to reread through SA to know for certain. 

[Calderis]

The prohibition is specifically of foretelling. There was no specific talk of visions but of prophecy.  It is indeed why games of chance are frowned on, because even attempting to guess the outcome of a dice roll is uncomfortably close to guessing at the future. 

There is a discussion between Dalinar and Adolin in WoK where Adolin says something along the lines of his visions not being an issue because they view the past. 

[Spoolofwhool]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The prohibition is specifically of foretelling. There was no specific talk of visions but of prophecy.  It is indeed why games of chance are frowned on, because even attempting to guess the outcome of a dice roll is uncomfortably close to guessing at the future. 

There is a discussion between Dalinar and Adolin in WoK where Adolin says something along the lines of his visions not being an issue because they view the past. 

No, it's visions from the Almighty in general as well. Here's an excerpt from WoK regarding a discussion between Adolin and an ardent regarding Vorinism's view on Dalinar's visions.

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“The problem, bright one,” Kadash said, “was mysticism. The priests claimed that common men could not understand religion or the Almighty. Where there should have been openness, there was smoke and whispers. The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”

Adolin froze. “Wait, you’re saying—”

“Don’t get ahead of me please, bright one,” Kadash assured, turning back toward him. “When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate and control the people.”

Adolin frowned. “Where are you going with this, Kadash?”

“As close as I dare to the truth, bright one,” the ardent said. “As I cannot be as blunt as you.”

“You think my father’s visions are fabrications, then.”

“I would never accuse my highprince of lying,” Kadash said. “Or even of feebleness. But neither can I condone mysticism or prophecy in any form. To do so would be to deny Vorinism. The days of the priests are gone. The days of lying to the people, of keeping them in darkness, are gone. Now, each man chooses his own path, and the ardents help him achieve closeness to the Almighty through it. Instead of shadowed prophecies and pretend powers held by a few, we have a population who understand their beliefs and their relationship with their God.”

- Way of Kings, Chapter 18

There doesn't appear to be any segment where Adolin says the visions aren't an issue because they're of the past. The main argument they have regarding the visions was from Adolin saying that the visions aren't true and are a creation of Dalinar's aging mind and that he should ignore them.

[Fulminato]

the dialogue intercourse between dalinar renarin and navanni, not adolin.

 

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Way of Kings - Chapter 61: Right form Wrong

Until he knew their source, he felt he shouldn’t spread knowledge of them.
“Dalinar,” Navani said, leaning forward. “The warcamps speak of your episodes. Even the wives of your officers are uncomfortable. They think you fear the storms, or that you have some disease of the mind. This will vindicate you.”
“How? By making me into some kind of mystic? Many will think that the breeze of these visions blows too close to prophecy.”
“You see the past, Father,” Renarin said. “That is not forbidden. And if the Almighty sends them, then how could men question?”
“Adolin and I both spoke with ardents,” Dalinar replied. “They said it was very unlikely that this would come from the Almighty. If we do decide the visions are to be trusted, many will disagree with me.”

Edited February 20, 2017 by Fulminato

[Calderis]

Thanks @Fulminato that's what I was thinking of 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Fulminato said:

the dialogue intercourse between dalinar renarin and navanni, not adolin.

 

Thank you. Still, I think the issue is that he is to some degree claiming the visions are from the Almighty, which is forbidden, even if they are of the past. He's saying that the Almighty is talking to him, which is a major red flag for Vorinism with regards to the Hierocracy.

[CabbageHead]

I like your idea that nightform is of Cultivation, especially with the allusion to a champion. It would be awesome if the champion against Odium ended up being Eshonai. Also somewhat satisfying in the sense that the Parshendi would appear to be the original inhabitants of the planet, and to have been enslaved by Odium in the past, while the more populous humans are in effect refugee followers of Honor crashing in his missus' house after getting their asses kicked by Odium on their home planet.

 

On the topic of prophecy, I personally think the reason for the prohibition on seeking to know the future is down to the Intent of Honor. All Shards have some ability for it, and indeed we see some degree of it in Truthwatchers, but for a Shard called Honor the primary Intent would seem to me to be to deal with the present moment, reacting to current reality rather than making plans. Entities like Odium and Cultivation however would be very much involved in the future. Odium is a schemer, and Cultivation by it's nature involves making plans for the future. When is the best time to sow, when to reap, which fields to plant, which to let lie fallow.... it is all about planning for the future.