A.U. Roshar System

[DocHoliday]

So map of the Rosharan system shows Braize is the 3rd planet in the system. I always had the impression is was more like Pluto IRL, As I hadn't read anything in WoK or WoR that adressed this observation.

Is Braize visible from Roshar? I'm not certain that there is any scale involved in the A.U. map, but the triple moons of Roshar in comparison to Braize's proximity leads me to think it should be. Any thoughts on this?

[Spoolofwhool]

I think at one point Kaladin looks up at the sky, notices a point of light, and comments that it's Brainerd, otherwise known as Damnation. Could be wrong though.

[Jondesu]

My impression is that both Braize and Ashyn are likely visible, to a similar degree as Mars and Venus are visible from Earth, except I don't recall the relative sizes of the planets, so the actual visible sizes might differ.  I know Kaladin mentions seeing Braize in the sky as Spoolofwhool said, and I think someone else mentioned it at one point too.

[skaa]

Here's the only thing I could find (thanks to a hint from Coppermind) that is remotely like what @Spoolofwhool described:

Quote

He felt as if he were standing above the void itself, Damnation, known as Braize in the old songs. Home to demons and monsters.

That's from chapter 32 of WoR, which is in Kaladin's PoV. It is not clear here at all that Braize is visible in the Rosharan night sky. I once read someone speculate about the Tear being either Ashyn or Braize, but Brandon RAFO'd that.

I do agree that it is very likely visible. We just don't have confirmation yet, unless I missed something.

[Spoolofwhool]

15 minutes ago, skaa said:

Here's the only thing I could find (thanks to a hint from Coppermind) that is remotely like what @Spoolofwhool described:

That's from chapter 32 of WoR, which is in Kaladin's PoV. It is not clear here at all that Braize is visible in the Rosharan night sky. I once read someone speculate about the Tear being either Ashyn or Braize, but Brandon RAFO'd that.

I do agree that it is very likely visible. We just don't have confirmation yet, unless I missed something.

That was what I was referencing, so I guess not. In any case, they know of it, so chances are that they can see it.

[+Extesian]

49 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That was what I was referencing, so I guess not. In any case, they know of it, so chances are that they can see it.

Physics would tend to agree with them being visible anyway, as the three inhabited planets have to be close enough to the sun to be hot enough to support life (though Braize could be an exception depending on how cold), just like from Earth we can see Venus and Mars easily. Past that we can only see Jupiter and Saturn without a telescope because they're so big. But chances are Ashyn and Braize, and probably some of the 10 gas giants, are visible with the naked eye. Whether Rosharans know they're planets add distinct from stars probably depends on how closely they watch the movements of the planets compared to the stars.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Physics would tend to agree with them being visible anyway, as the three inhabited planets have to be close enough to the sun to be hot enough to support life (though Braize could be an exception depending on how cold), just like from Earth we can see Venus and Mars easily. Past that we can only see Jupiter and Saturn without a telescope because they're so big. But chances are Ashyn and Braize, and probably some of the 10 gas giants, are visible with the naked eye. Whether Rosharans know they're planets add distinct from stars probably depends on how closely they watch the movements of the planets compared to the stars.

Braize has a population of splinters so it might not necessarily be in a habitable zone. 

[Weltall]

Brandon has said that the star charts are accurate in terms of showing relative position but they're not necessarily accurate in terms of scale. (Source) Apparently Team Sanderson has that sort of data but we're not getting it, or at least not yet. He explains the AU charts as being made by people who aren't spacefarers, who are making their observations from the Cognitive Realm. I suspect that if we were to ever get 'proper' to-scale maps, it would be in Mistborn Era 4 since that will involve space travel in the Physical Realm.

That said, I imagine that Braize (and Ashyn) should be visible from Roshar.

[skaa]

As a slightly off-topic side note, I think it's also possible that most cultures on Roshar do not have (or no longer have) enough interest in astronomy to even be aware of planets, even in the Ancient Greek sense (i.e. planētes asteres, "wandering stars"). This is possible because, at least on Earth, the ancient cultures that developed the study of astronomy did so because of reasons that do not apply to Rosharans: (1) it helped them predict the seasons and (2) they believed in astrology. Both reasons do not apply for most Rosharan cultures because (1) Rosharan weather depends mostly on the highstorm cycle, and (2) the most widespread religion on Roshar (Vorinism) would most definitely prohibit astrology.

So even if Braize could technically be seen from Roshar, it might not have been cataloged yet, and people might not have noticed a star (or two, or twelve) moving with respect to other stars in the night sky. This, of course, is assuming that the Tear isn't Braize.

If so, it's possible that the "old songs" were made by ancient Cosmere-aware people who knew that Braize was a real place either through Worldhopping or by communicating with Worldhoppers or knowledgeable spren.

Edited February 15, 2017 by skaa

[DocHoliday]

11 hours ago, skaa said:

As a slightly off-topic side note, I think it's also possible that most cultures on Roshar do not have (or no longer have) enough interest in astronomy to even be aware of planets, even in the Ancient Greek sense (i.e. planētes asteres, "wandering stars"). 

 wandering stars? Like starspren? WoR p.362 and 836 mentions starspren in the Scar and the Tear, and starspren moving in the sky despite cloud cover, respectively. What would those Spren be attracted to, if it's clearly not starlight?

I'm wondering if they arnt attracted to a "bridge" of some kind to Braize now.

[Jofwu]

14 hours ago, skaa said:

This is possible because, at least on Earth, the ancient cultures that developed the study of astronomy did so because of reasons that do not apply to Rosharans: (1) it helped them predict the seasons and (2) they believed in astrology.

(3) Navigating large bodies of water? Rosharans don't stray far from land for pretty good reasons.

[skaa]

2 hours ago, jofwu said:

(3) Navigating large bodies of water? Rosharans don't stray far from land for pretty good reasons.

D'oh! I can't believe I missed that one. Thanks!

I re-read the story of Derethil and the Wandersail and sure enough there was no mention of using stars to navigate. I suppose the Tear and Taln's Scar might be sufficient for that purpose, though.

Also, @DocHoliday, that blew my mind! Like, why would Rosharans even suspect that planets exist if the moving stars they see are clearly spren that live below cloud level? Such a clever bit of worldbuilding, but that's Brandon Sanderson for you.

Edited February 15, 2017 by skaa