Jump to content

Is Harmony just bad at being a God?


hwiles

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

I do like your super hero analogy but I can't recall offhand if we've really had any serious indications that Trell is trying to "destroy the planet," so I'm not prepared to agree on that point. 

bands of mourning, the epilogue or one of the final chapters. the scene where edwarn is killed by one of the "faceless immortals of the set". the thing said something like "we changed the plan. things here are getting out of hand, so we're going to have to wipe out all life on the planet. you will be allowed to serve in another life. KABOOM". I don't have the book handy to quote exactly.

"trell" definitely does not give a damnation about the planet and he'd be fine with destroying it. therefore, anything concerning him or people being manipulated by him (the set, miles, paalm) is something sazed is justified to interere with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@king of nowhere : Haha, never mind, yeah, I will take that as a valid argument that Trell seems to be planning to destroy Scadrial.

@Spoolofwhool : Your arguments as I understand them:

  1. Shards are innately Gods
  2. Gods are defined by the faith put into them by people
  3. Harmony is good because he acts according to how people think he should act

My proposed counter-points:

  1. Shards are essentially Gods because we don't really have another good word for a being with that much power.  This is a matter of semantics in my mind, granted, it does make things a bit confusing.  I call Shards "Gods," but at the same time, I don't think they are really in any way "divine."  Does that make sense?
  2. Shard holders are objectively "good" at holding their Shard(s) if they obey their Intent without losing their personality and can avoid being shattered.  Shards that adhere to the morals and ethics upheld by their people are good Gods.  Shards that only do one or the other are either crummy Gods, or unsustainable Gods.  I'm not sure why we're talking about "faith."
  3. Harmony is bad because the way he acts is not in harmony with his Intent.  :lol:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

 

  1. Harmony is bad because the way he acts is not in harmony with his Intent.  :lol:

 But Harmony's Intent isn't really Harmony, is it? He's got both Ruin and Preservation driving his intent, so it's more of a balance between those two? He's meddling a little, but not too much. He can't create a perfect world, because the Ruin in him wouldn't allow it. So he allows Ruin to exist in the world. But he's not going all crazy at it like Ati. And we know he's doing something extra with his Ruin, but not what. 

I don't think he's perfectly aligned with both of them, but it seems to me that he's kept some sort of balance between both Intents for centuries. He is acting in accordance to both, to some degree. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am with hwiles, the word "god" is an empty word who could fit almost everyone with many semantics.

Some people would see "gods" as "superleaders" and in this case: TLR, Heralds, Returned and probably also a great great ruler without any kind of power is a god.

Some other people will see "gods" as a matter of power and in Cosmere's scale the Shards reign above the rest...so them are gods.

I am not the best suited to talk on this matter, but I find Sazed the best god i could imagine. Someone with power who try his best to make the things better without be so prideful to think He coul not be wrong.
"He is not the god you want, but he is the god you need" 

I don't want to carry this topic on personal belief, but notice also that the right god (Adonalsium) didn't performe a perfect task in his work either

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"god" is a term with many possible different meanings. there is the god as intended by the monoteistic religions, omnipotent and omniscient, but there are also the gods as intendedby the ancient greeks, which were basically ageless people with superpowers, and there are also god-kings, spirits of the ancestors, and a lot of other things i probably never heard.

but yeah, we call shards gods because we have no better terms. it is quite fitting, because historically men have been callling gods everything that had powers they could not comprehend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

"god" is a term with many possible different meanings. there is the god as intended by the monoteistic religions, omnipotent and omniscient, but there are also the gods as intendedby the ancient greeks, which were basically ageless people with superpowers, and there are also god-kings, spirits of the ancestors, and a lot of other things i probably never heard.

Funny fact:
There is a guy in America (I know a bit vague, but I read this story many years ago) who is actually a god.

When he was only a baby traveled with his family in Africa for holydays...in the visit they lost some objects, within this objects there was a photo of this child. A tribe with almost no contact with the rest of the world found this photo and they thought it was a relique (they never saw a photo) and the one on it was a god....they workship him for years until a antropologist discovered the fact and track back the guy...For all this years the boy (now a man) was that tribe's god.

Edited by Yata
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember, Sazed is balancing two imperfectly harmonized shards.

Preservation is eternal stagnation, a lack of change. Ruin is destruction without allowing anything to exist at all. Personally I think that Ruin would be more opposite Cultivation than anyone else.

If Sazed were to obtain Cultivation, he might actually have a perfect harmony of his shards. He's doing the best that he can while still being unable to truly be balanced. 

I think he's done a good job so far. He's kept the world from being destroyed at least. Sorry if this is more suited for a different thread.

Edited by ShadowLord_Lith
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@king of nowhere I agree with this completely. Being in a position of power automatically entitles you to answering problems - even if those said problems hadn't occurred on your watch. Basically, since Sazed is god, everything remotely worthy of blame is laid on his feet, and that therefore simply promotes the idea that he is an incompetent god.

But incompetence, or at least the claim that Sazed isn't a very good god somehow doesn't smell right to me. Shouldn't active interference in people's lives be a prerequisite for being a "good" god? If there is anything that Sazed should be blamed for it is that he isn't following his intent correctly - and this is where it all gets awry.

"Harmony" is a concept that is basically so far removed from present awareness (i.e. always looking at the bigger picture, having a balance of good and bad) that if Sazed was to fully submit himself to everything it stands for, he's going to lose sight of perspective good.

I don't know what scale one is supposed to be looking at when one operates on the guise of Harmony, but if I were to make a guess, I'd say since Harmony stands for both good and bad then he'd probably see letting strife like what happened to Elendel during the events of SoS carry-on since in his head, he'd probably be able to answer everything bad happening at that moment with something good later on in the future.

This is what's bad. Sazed has never been someone capable of letting strife occur - even if said strife happens to be justified. Therefore, actively rebelling against his constraints and taking sides in the entire scheme of things is the only way Sazed can do good for the people of Scadrial. I think there is just no way that Sazed can reconcile the idea of being proactive in watching over Scadrial with the idea of fully embracing the intent of Harmony. Then again, maybe I'm just making too many unjustified logical leaps... <_<

Edited by Mr. Staccato
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest critique of Sazed, for me, is the Southerners. At a time when Sazed's chosen people were waking up in a perpetually fertile land, surrounded by the collected wisdom of the Keepers and their leader gifted with supernatural power, the Southerners began freezing to death. 

I don't believe it was malicious but it was, at the very best, careless. Lethally careless. Without Kelsier, who seems to be working at cross-purposes to Sazed, it would have been genocide. 

 

Edited by Tarion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tarion True. Personally, when I found out about what happened to the Southerners I was surprised. Sazed would never have wanted that to happen to them, but then again I wonder if there ever was a solution that could have benefited everybody in Scadrial in the first place. I wish I could just chalk it up to ignorance on his part or that maybe he knew Kelsier would somehow intervene later, but both choices undermine his status as a "god".

As best as I can put it? Sazed's track-record isn't spotless - but he's still the only shardholder I know who's trying his best to act despite the shackles of his intent. I'd take that over any of the other shardholders we've seen so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if someone has said this, but couldn't Sazed actually be acting true to his shardic intent? What I mean is that he is trying to maintain harmony among the people of Scadrial. Take for instance, the interactions between the Northern and Southern Scadrians. They could have easily had a hostile end to their conversations. Them parting ways with at least spoken intentions of trade instead of war is one example. Sazed acting to counter Bleeder is another example of trying to maintain harmony in Elendel and the surrounding region. Once again, Sazed is attempting to protect the fragile harmony of Scadrial by fending off the intrusion of the red mist and using his "Preservation" (TenSoon) and "Ruin" (Wax) to counter the very unharmonious plans of the Set.

Having relatively minor amounts of  discord can actually serve the shardic intent of Harmony. I assume that's what we see happening with Autonomy as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say he was the best choice available at the time he ascended. He used knowledge from all the religions on Scadrial to reassemble the world and set it too rights. No other character at that time would have been able to do that so adroitly. There's also the fact there are groups, factions and perhaps even other Shards working to limit his knowledge about the Cosmere, balancing two Shards of different intent binds his hands but he's still learning. Considering the guy went in blind i would personally say he's done a pretty good job. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

I find Sazed the best god i could imagine. Someone with power who try his best to make the things better without be so prideful to think He coul not be wrong.
"He is not the god you want, but he is the god you need" 

Quote

As best as I can put it? Sazed's track-record isn't spotless - but he's still the only shardholder I know who's trying his best to act despite the shackles of his intent. I'd take that over any of the other shardholders we've seen so far.

I agree with both of these points.

I think it's important to note that the typical view of a god ( at least most Christian views) are of a perfect, omniscient being who is not bound by Intents. Comparatively, Sazed is just a mortal who took the shards and while he did have his copperminds, he was far from omniscient. He did what he thought was best, and it didn't turn out perfect, but can you blame him? He doesn't instinctively know what he should do. Couple that with the fact that the opposing nature of the two shards make it hard for him to act, and you can see why things turned out the way they did.

Also this piece from BoM,

Quote

“What is it to be God, Waxillium?” Harmony asked. “I don’t think that’s a question I can answer.” “It is not one I ever thought I’d have to answer either,” Harmony said. “But obviously, it has been forced upon me. You would have me intervene and stop the murders of innocents. I could do this. I have considered it. If I were to stop every one, what then? Do I stop maimings as well?” “Of course,” Wax said. “And where do I hold back, Waxillium? Do I prevent all wounds, or do I prevent only those caused by evil people? Do I stop a man from falling asleep so that he will not tip a candle and burn down his house? Do I stop all harm that could ever befall a person?” “Maybe.” “And once nobody is ever hurt,” Harmony said, “will people be satisfied? Will they not pray to me and ask for more? Will some people still curse and spit at the sound of my name because they are poor, while another is rich? Should I mitigate this, make everyone the same, Waxillium?” “I won’t be caught in this trap,” Wax said. “You’re the God, not me. You can find a line where You prevent the worst. You can find a line where You’re stopping the worst that is reasonable, while still letting us live our lives.” “Perhaps,” Harmony said softly, “I have already done just as you suggest. You do not see it, because the worst never reaches you.”

I think this is important beacuse maybe Sazed does interfere more than the people realize. The only viewpoint characters we have are regular mortals, none from Sazed's view,  so I think its a very real possibility. Overall, I think he has done a pretty decent job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2017 at 4:08 AM, Tarion said:

The biggest critique of Sazed, for me, is the Southerners. At a time when Sazed's chosen people were waking up in a perpetually fertile land, surrounded by the collected wisdom of the Keepers and their leader gifted with supernatural power, the Southerners began freezing to death. 

I don't believe it was malicious but it was, at the very best, careless. Lethally careless. Without Kelsier, who seems to be working at cross-purposes to Sazed, it would have been genocide. 

 

Maybe. There are some anomalous things going on with the Southerners (like their apparent hyper-sensitivity to cold, when they ought to be genetically normal, and their possession of Feruchemy). I wouldn't necessarily assume that what we hear in Bands of Mourning is 100% of the truth.

I also wouldn't assume Kelsier is working at cross-purposes to Sazed at that point...

Edited by cometaryorbit
remove repetition
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another question that needs to be asked is free will. Assuming he had the ability: If Saze took all evil inclinations from people, wouldn't that be taking away their ability to choose? If he kept them safe from all harm wouldn't they be smothered? 

Without struggle there is no growth. Without pain we couldn't recognize joy. If that was taken away we'd lose a major part of what it is to be human. We'd have nothing to strive for.

And if we are going to blame Saze for the bad, why not blame him for the good too? If he hadn't interfered Wax and Steris might never have realized how well matched they really are!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't help but think that if Brandon was lurking somewhere around here he'd mistake this thread for an actual discourse of human religion. Haha. (Which btw it is~)

Anyway I'm on a mobile device right now so I can't quote people.

@Crucible of Shards I can't bring it up right now but didn't Saze say that his hands were tied from interfering directly in mortal affairs because of the fact of the shards' intents? I agree that harmony means, well, general harmony but I also kinda thought harmony is letting things happen when they should happen - general escalation with minimum interference.

Then again, maybe he meant his hands were tied because he was tending to the red mist. I have no idea.

@Kingsdaughter613 True true - people cannot become better if everything is as is. Strife and pain are the greatest motivators for advancement. Of course, some people will get worse end of the deal with this arrangement and they'll invariably blame it on Harmony for it ever happening but bad things will have to eventually happen someone, somewhere, and sometimes that someone just happens to be you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2017 at 10:08 AM, Tarion said:

The biggest critique of Sazed, for me, is the Southerners. At a time when Sazed's chosen people were waking up in a perpetually fertile land, surrounded by the collected wisdom of the Keepers and their leader gifted with supernatural power, the Southerners began freezing to death. 

I don't believe it was malicious but it was, at the very best, careless. Lethally careless. Without Kelsier, who seems to be working at cross-purposes to Sazed, it would have been genocide. 

 

When the Lord Ruler took up Preseration's power in a desperate attempt to stop the Mists he moved Scadrial closer to the sun to burn them off, the planet grew insanely hot. I think when Sazed realigned the planets perhaps the Southerners happened to be on the South Pole. That's why everything froze over, i agree with you it wasn't malicious it simply needed to be done. I highly doubt however Saze just left it at that, im sure he did something, like he's the one who sent Kelsier is my theory.

Edited by AerionBFII
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always felt that he didn't know they were there while he fixed the world and by the time he realized it was too late to fix things without remaking the world again. We actually know what he was thinking while he ascended and there is no indication that he knew of their existence.

They were at the South magnetic pole, not the South Pole. It would not have taken ten years for them to die if it had been the other way. And it would have been too cold for the northerners too, had that been the case.

 

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

 

@Crucible of Shards

@Kingsdaughter613 True true - people cannot become better if everything is as is. Strife and pain are the greatest motivators for advancement. Of course, some people will get worse end of the deal with this arrangement and they'll invariably blame it on Harmony for it ever happening but bad things will have to eventually happen someone, somewhere, and sometimes that someone just happens to be you.

There's a great line in the Vorkosigan Saga about that, which I'm going to paraphrase, 'tests are a gift and great tests are great gifts.' No one wants to be tested, but if by going through a test we become better people then isn't the test a good thing? If you can make something good out of something horrible then hasn't it ultimately been for good? Of course we'd prefer not to have experienced such a thing to begin with, but if we took away some 'bad' we'd also lose so much good.

Sorry for the double post; my phone can be annoying like that sometimes.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2017 at 3:25 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I've always felt that he didn't know they were there while he fixed the world and by the time he realized it was too late to fix things without remaking the world again. We actually know what he was thinking while he ascended and there is no indication that he knew of their existence.

They were at the South magnetic pole, not the South Pole. It would not have taken ten years for them to die if it had been the other way. And it would have been too cold for the northerners too, had that been the case.

 

The other thing to bare in mind is that it was evident in Secret History that neither Ruin nor Preservation could travel beyond what seemed to be about the bounds of the Final Empire geographically - there's nothing so far saying that Harmony can actually reach out to the Southern Scadrians and help them if he wanted to.  He might be too Invested in the Elendil Basin.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/15/2017 at 11:03 PM, Tazren said:

 But Harmony's Intent isn't really Harmony, is it? He's got both Ruin and Preservation driving his intent, so it's more of a balance between those two? He's meddling a little, but not too much. He can't create a perfect world, because the Ruin in him wouldn't allow it. So he allows Ruin to exist in the world. But he's not going all crazy at it like Ati. And we know he's doing something extra with his Ruin, but not what. 

Ackchually he only holds the one shard. Harmony. At the end of HoA, as Sazed is taking the power, Someone-Who-Would-Know says: "Ruin and Preservation are dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact they belonged together. How had they been split?" 
Not to mention this WoB: 

Spoiler


THANATOS17901 ()

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)


 

 

(TMW when a WoB screws up your font) So Harmony may be able to use the powers of Ruin and Preservation separately, if say he wanted to produce some Atium/Lerasium, because he perceives the power being made of two parts, but he holds one shard, with one intent. (Which was stated in AoL to be "Harmony, creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices.")

 

Sorry for straight-up saying "you're wrong", but this has been bugging me since I first read it :P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the end of Shadows of Self I would have agreed with you.  However, the explanation in Bands of Mourning made me consider that I was only looking at it from a real-time, linear perspective.  Whereas Saze's perspective is a bit more comprehensive.  

I'd guess that Saze is seeing not only other individual futures, but also the future as a whole and is acting accordingly.  Much as a toddler may not understand why filling up on ice cream is a bad idea, a lot of the actions we're seeing here won't make sense until we have the same perspective.  

That's my take anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Ackchually he only holds the one shard. Harmony. At the end of HoA, as Sazed is taking the power, Someone-Who-Would-Know says: "Ruin and Preservation are dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact they belonged together. How had they been split?" 
Not to mention this WoB: 

  Hide contents

 

THANATOS17901 ()

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

 

 

 

(TMW when a WoB screws up your font) So Harmony may be able to use the powers of Ruin and Preservation separately, if say he wanted to produce some Atium/Lerasium, because he perceives the power being made of two parts, but he holds one shard, with one intent. (Which was stated in AoL to be "Harmony, creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices.")

 

Sorry for straight-up saying "you're wrong", but this has been bugging me since I first read it :P

 

No problem, but isn't that basically the same? I mean, he's balanced between Preservation and Ruin, that's why he's Harmony? He's managed to control them to the extent that they've intermingled. But from other answers it seems very much like he still has to balance those two forces (and him being good at it is what makes him Harmony and not something else)

 

Quote

QUESTION

The epigraphs for The Way of Kings, that were talking about how the various Shardholders are influenced by their shards over time--how does that impact someone like Harmony, with multiple shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The main effect it's having on Harmony right now is his inability to act sometimes, because his two sides are pushing, and so he is having trouble being proactive. It'd take a long time before it really becomes manifest, but he's had several hundred years, so it's starting to have an effect.

 

Quote

QUESTION

As of Shadows of Self, how many Shards are there on Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(nervous laugh) There are two.... Harmony counts as two Shards. I do mean it that way, and I am giving you clarification so you don't all freak out.

 

Quote

QUESTION

Request for info on Harmony as personalization.

BRANDON SANDERSON

He wrote: “Harmony could go by another name, if he was not as good at controlling both of the Shards.” Brandon: And some of you might already be able to figure out what that would be.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/17/2017 at 7:27 AM, Mr. Staccato said:

As best as I can put it? Sazed's track-record isn't spotless - but he's still the only shardholder I know who's trying his best to act despite the shackles of his intent. I'd take that over any of the other shardholders we've seen so far.

I think before any potential issues arise with his connection to the people on Scadrial, or their connection to him, that a real threat to his power exists in his *acknowledgement* of his track-record - his inability to be a perfect God.  Given Sazed's personality, I see a real chance that Harmony could allow himself to be *convinced* he is not fit to hold the power, and give it up, possibly even to someone of the population's choosing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On March 15, 2017 at 3:41 AM, ArborealEtymologist said:

I think before any potential issues arise with his connection to the people on Scadrial, or their connection to him, that a real threat to his power exists in his *acknowledgement* of his track-record - his inability to be a perfect God.  Given Sazed's personality, I see a real chance that Harmony could allow himself to be *convinced* he is not fit to hold the power, and give it up, possibly even to someone of the population's choosing.

I actually have the exact opposite view on this :lol:. Sazed acknowledges the fact the isn't a "perfect" god - that only makes it more imperative of him to keep the shard. We all know Saze is messing up, but Saze also knows that one must be aware that just having the power of a god doesn't mean that you can do everything right by it - especially since Harmony is a very, very difficult concept or intent to fall in line to.

So basically my point is this. Yes, Saze and the shard are having problems - but he also happens to be one of the most compassionate and self-aware beings in the planet even prior to his ascension. A person like that, especially since he knows he could do a fat lot of good with it, would be unwilling to simply give up the shard to someone else even if there were people better suited to holding it. This is because at the end of it all, it isn't what you could do with the shard that matters most.

What matters most to holding a shard is knowing your limitations, not the things you could do.

So he is not a perfect god. He doesn't intend to become one.

He won't give up the shard - even if that were possible - because Saze may be the only person in the entirety of Scadrial who knows the truth. Other people with this shard might strive to do what they can in adherence to this concept of perfection and whatnot but Sazed won't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...