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TWD - Chapter 01 - kaisa 02/13/16 (V, L, G) 5364 words


kais

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13 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Why didn't you mention that when we had a discussion about ownvoice in the Lounge?

Why didn't you at any point decide to learn anything about the subject before making pronouncements about it?

e: though in retrospect, someone entering into a conversation about something without actually knowing anything about the subject of the conversation, making a sweeping pronouncement about the subject of the conversation regardless, and expecting this pronouncement to be taken seriously frankly precisely describes the phenomenon that ownvoices partially exists to address.

13 hours ago, aeromancer said:

it's not something I support,

You have consistently and repeatedly spoken in favour of oppressive systems and the preservation of oppressive systems. Whether you want to or not, whether you like that fact or not, you are supporting oppression.

13 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Do you need to fight me on everything? You're picking a fight with something you don't need to.

I said ' I'm not sure kaisa likes the mess we've made of her feedback forum'. The fact that I think kaisa doesn't like a shouting match in a feedback forum which does not discuss any themes in the submission is for kaisa to decide. So, you want to decide how I think, and, not only that, you want someone else to decide how I think.

When you're trying to redefine the terms of the conversation based on a claim that someone else who has not weighed in would feel a certain way, that's taking agency away from them. If you don't want to discuss this here, that's fine, but do that on your own terms, and don't make decisions on Kaisa's behalf.

Edited by neongrey
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45 minutes ago, neongrey said:

Why didn't you at any point decide to learn anything about the subject before making pronouncements about it?

You have consistently and repeatedly spoken in favour of oppressive systems and the preservation of oppressive systems. Whether you want to or not, whether you like that fact or not, you are supporting oppression.

When you're trying to redefine the terms of the conversation based on a claim that someone else who has not weighed in would feel a certain way, that's taking agency away from them. If you don't want to discuss this here, that's fine, but do that on your own terms, and don't make decisions on Kaisa's behalf.

 

I think aeromancer did.  To paraphrase:

I don't think I would like this in my thread, so I'm going to stop doing it in Kasia's' thread.  If you want to continue the conversation, come join me @ place.   

Aeromancer didn't say Kasia didn't like it. Aeromancer said Kasia may not like it.

To me, it appears that Aeromancer is trying to treat Kasia, the way that he would like his chapter thread treated.

 

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Dragon has made a brand spanking new thread for this conversation. I suggest we all pack up and move over there. With that said, @neongrey, @industrialistDragon, and I are all speaking the same language here. We do so in different ways, certainly, but all with the same main message. #ownvoices in fiction matters. Respect for marginalized people, pronouns, and how apologies work, matters. The language you use and how you type it, matters

All three of us are (I'm pretty sure), white, so we're not paragons of virtuous Social Justice Warriors ourselves, but all three of us are from marginalized communities of one form or another. We live every day having to fight to be heard, having to fight for dignity, having to fight to just be ourselves. It's hard. It is vitally important to understand that when someone on here uses the wrong pronoun, or makes harmful assumptions, or uses words that hurt, that isn't the first time we've had that happen this month, or this week, or even today. We only have so much bandwidth. We only have so much empathy and ability to educate the privileged when there is a huge internet out there one can access with a browser and a keyword. We have to keep calling people out, because otherwise privilege continues unchecked, but we do not need to do so with patience or politeness. That we do so is a testament to how much we value this forum and the friendships we have made, but also means our tempers are that much closer to breaking for the next person we encounter, five minutes down the line.

I know it is hard to break out of the worldview you were handed at birth. I'm white. I get it. I know being told that your words are ableist or racist can often be heard as you are ableist or racist, but that's not it. You can have the best of intentions and still get it wrong. If someone calls you out, of course at first your feathers are ruffled. That's human nature. But just take a step back, breathe, reconsider. Google. Ask for clarification if needed after you've googled. It's okay to misstep! When you do, just apologize and learn from it. 

This forum has grown in simply amazing ways since I first joined, and I hope it will continue to do so. But as we get more and more people, so too will the diversity grow. We have to be able to grow along with that, so we can make this a vibrant community where all feel welcomed and heard. That will take a lot of patience and probably some hard conversations, but its something I think RE can do if it wants to.

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