Spolier what is Szeth now Spolier

[Darkness]

(Heavily edited after catching up on sleep and enlightening discussion) The soul is the essence of who a person is, and is used fairly loosely by Brandon with respect to only the Spiritual component vs. both Cognitive and Spiritual. Cognitive shadows are what results from a person losing ties to the physical realm, but maintaining existence in the Cognitive Realm by virtue of having sufficient investiture in their souls prior to death.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Darkness

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

I feel like there is a base level of knowledge that is missing in this discussion regarding Cognitive Shadows and souls. The soul is the essence of who a person is, and is used fairly loosely by Brandon with respect to only the Spiritual component vs. both Cognitive and Spiritual. What is certain is that the soul is in fact the Original Person. Cognitive Shadows are not an aspect or surviving part of a real person. Cognitive shadows are investiture (whether it's the base amount present in all people - Nalthians having more than regular Cosmerites - or supplemented by magic). The Investiture that makes up a Cognitive Shadow is the thing that remains as the soul that formed the 'framework' of the person falls away during death. The Cognitive Shadow, then, is patterned after the living person, but is actually an entity composed of investiture, not the person themselves.

I disagree completely. From what we've seen so far, the Cognitive aspect is what we commonly think of as the soil. After death it is the Cognitive aspect that is pulled into the Beyond and both a physical and spiritual remnant/corpse/something are left behind. 

Mistborn spoilers especially Secret History

Spoiler

This is why we've been told you can use a fresh corpse to make a weak Hemalurgic spike. 

In Secret History, after Kelsier's death, he is pulled towards the Beyond, and runs to the well to anchor himself. There is no copy. There's no splitting or visible queue that Kel went beyond and something else was left behind. 

The pull just stops. 

The theory that a Cognitive Shadow is a copy of the original is an in a world theory that runs counter to the evidence we've been shown so far. 

 

[Darkness]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

I disagree completely. From what we've seen so far, the Cognitive aspect is what we commonly think of as the soil. After death it is the Cognitive aspect that is pulled into the Beyond and both a physical and spiritual remnant/corpse/something are left behind. 

Mistborn spoilers especially Secret History

  Reveal hidden contents

This is why we've been told you can use a fresh corpse to make a weak Hemalurgic spike. 

In Secret History, after Kelsier's death, he is pulled towards the Beyond, and runs to the well to anchor himself. There is no copy. There's no splitting or visible queue that Kel went beyond and something else was left behind. 

The pull just stops. 

The theory that a Cognitive Shadow is a copy of the original is an in a world theory that runs counter to the evidence we've been shown so far. 

 

this is the WoB I got my thought from originally:

 

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. ‘Cognitive Shadow’ is a very ambiguous term in the Cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but you are usually Invested with something that’s tied, and you’re basically like pure Investiture then. You’re tied to the thing you’re Connected to. Most of the things that you’re gonna see like that, traveling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

-end WoB (my close spoiler tags dont format properly on my phone).

I never said 'copy'. The bolded parts of the WoB were basically what I was trying to explain. I can see the ambiguity with the italicized part though: I read it as a consoling "dont worry, your soul still exists somewhere, it doesn't just disappear", but you could read it as "the Cognitive Shadow is still your original soul", I just think the latter doesn't fit well with the bolded text around it.

Other WoB s also refer to Cognitive Shadows as being Investiture, but then, so is the soul itself, so that's again ambiguous. The only question I've seen delve into the specifics of spirit, soul, and investiture got a rafo, but it didn't include Cognitive Shadows anyway. I guess this all comes down to how you think about the general flovour of the text and how you interpret that first WoB. I think anything more concrete may have to wait quite a while in the Cosmere, if they even bother delving into that particular detail. I mean, it seems like a fundamental detail, but it probably doesn't make that much of a difference to the plot and Cosmere either way.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Darkness
a little added on the end

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Darkness said:

never said 'copy'. The bolded parts of the WoB were basically what I was trying to explain. I can see the ambiguity with the italicized part though: I read it as a consoling "dont worry, your soul still exists somewhere, it doesn't just disappear", but you could read it as "the Cognitive Shadow is still your original soul", I just think the latter doesn't fit well with the bolded text around it.

And the spoiler I mentioned is precisely why I think that's correct. 

I think of it like the Ship of Theseus. If the entire soul has been replaced by investiture, but it's still the same being, is it really a copy or has the original just been rebuilt? 

I believe it is the original person. The stuff that makes up their soul has just been replaced with a different type of investiture to allow it to stay. That's why their bound. 

Edit: I mean, in most instances, the investiture that would create the "copy" would have been enacted before they died. 

If they were a living copy and no one was able to notice the change, can they really be considered a copy? 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Calderis

[Darkness]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

And the spoiler I mentioned is precisely why I think that's correct. 

I think of it like the Ship of Theseus. If the entire soul has been replaced by investiture, but it's still the same being, is it really a copy or has the original just been rebuilt? 

I believe it is the original person. The stuff that makes up their soul has just been replaced with a different type of investiture to allow it to stay. That's why their bound. 

That is definitely the crux of the matter. The only concern I would have about it would be purely philosophical: If the soul has been so thoroughly and efficiently replaced/altered as to basically be the original person, but made from slightly different stuff, does that person's original soul (in the form it was before being 'transfigured') actually become the new investiture, does it meld and cohabitate with the investiture, or if not, where does it go?

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Darkness said:

That is definitely the crux of the matter. The only concern I would have about it would be purely philosophical: If the soul has been so thoroughly and efficiently replaced/altered as to basically be the original person, but made from slightly different stuff, does that person's original soul (in the form it was before being 'transfigured') actually become the new investiture, does it meld and cohabitate with the investiture, or if not, where does it go?

That's the thing, this is pure speculation, but I don't think it does go anywhere. 

Someone who has held a Shard, a Sliver, has by definition held enough investiture that when they die, going beyond is purely a choice. We never question though, if the Vessel is still there. 

Their soul has been stretched and expanded and altered, but it's still them in every conversation we have about a Vessel. 

Why would any other Shadow be different? 

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think of it like the Ship of Theseus.

Since you brought it up.

Quote

Q: I have a philosophy question that could actually be answered in Cosmere: Ship of Theseus.
If I went and replaced every part of the ship, would it still - Cognitively - be the same thing?
What if I replaced everything and made a second ship out of the parts from the first one? What could somebody watching all of that from Shadesmar tell me?
 
A: You're right, part of the design of the Cosmere (which has some deep roots in classical philosophy) was an attempt to answer the Ship of Theseus question.
In the Cosmere, part of the Cognitive--and even spiritual--aspect of a thing (particularly if it isn't sentient) is delineated by the way that thinking beings define it. Per the old joke about the axe, if you replace your axe head and think of the new axe as "Your Axe," then the cognitive and spiritual aspects of that thing will grow to reflect that.
If you replaced every part of your ship, and gave the sailors time to sail it, thinking of it as the same ship--it would become the same ship.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Since you brought it up.

I was actually thinking about that when I wrote it, but had forgotten the details of the quote. Everything in the Cosmere has all three aspects. So if as he says a Ship in the Cosmere, is literally the same ship after the parts are all replaced, why is a person different? 

[Darkness]

both fair points. Upvoted

I'd like to tie this back into the original topic.

Szeth is not a cognitive shadow; his real soul was returned to his body... it just isn't sticking very well. Hence the afterimages.

Someone proposed that the afterimage Lift sees is Szeth's Cognitive aspect lagging behind his Physical aspect.

I actually think the opposite. I think the lagging Szeth is actually the physical aspect that everyone else sees too. Szeth's Cognitive aspect would then move in front of his Physical, which makes more sense to me scientifically. First you plan a movement, and then you execute it. We've seen similar thought processes when mistborn spoiler

Vin tried to use pure reflex to overcome atium.

This would only matter to the few individuals which could see Szeth's "afterimage", who could feasibly get a split second warning of what Szeth's Physical aspect was about to do.

I dont have WoB or textual evidence for this, but to me it makes more logical sense that the Cognitive moves first, and then the Physical moves a split second after.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Darkness

[Jondesu]

On 7/16/2017 at 9:01 PM, Darkness said:

both fair points. Upvoted

I'd like to tie this back into the original topic.

Szeth is not a cognitive shadow; his real soul was returned to his body... it just isn't sticking very well. Hence the afterimages.

Someone proposed that the afterimage Lift sees is Szeth's Cognitive aspect lagging behind his Physical aspect.

I actually think the opposite. I think the lagging Szeth is actually the physical aspect that everyone else sees too. Szeth's Cognitive aspect would then move in front of his Physical, which makes more sense to me scientifically. First you plan a movement, and then you execute it. We've seen similar thought processes when mistborn spoiler

  Hide contents

Vin tried to use pure reflex to overcome atium.

 

This would only matter to the few individuals which could see Szeth's "afterimage", who could feasibly get a split second warning of what Szeth's Physical aspect was about to do.

I dont have WoB or textual evidence for this, but to me it makes more logical sense that the Cognitive moves first, and then the Physical moves a split second after.

That makes a ton of sense.  Since we believe (confirmed?) that Lift can see the Cognitive Realm differently and is perhaps partly in it all the time, it makes total sense that she'd see his Cognitive and Physical aspects separately if they're poorly joined back together.  She'd never have seen that before because most people have never been separated from their CR aspect, much less stitched back together like that. The tie-in to Atium is something I think we need to ask Brandon about because it sounds so exactly like the way he'd write this.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Jondesu

[+Extesian]

I wonder if this happens to anyone restored to life by a healing fabrial, or if it's specific to Szeth. 

Note that even sufficiently invested will do it but the connection to the Cognitive Realm helps. So that will be a huge weakness for Szeth fighting any Surgebinder or, say, 8 Shin with Honorblades. 

Quote

QUESTION

Could only Lift see Szeth's afterimages?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Anyone sufficiently Invested can see them. Connection to the Cognitive Realm helps, too.

 

[Dahak]

On 14/03/2017 at 8:34 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Is Nalan using his original Honorblade, or did he bond a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

He's using his original Honorblade. But there's an asterisk here that will come up in Oathbringer.

I'm currently wondering if he or Zahel has awakened (or some stormlight equivalent) his Honorblade.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, Dahak said:

I'm currently wondering if he or Zahel has awakened (or some stormlight equivalent) his Honorblade.

I'll try to find the WoB concerning it, but the asterisk is referring to the fact that before Honor was splintered, the Honorblades had a direct connection to Honor and the Heralds did not need Stormlight to use the surges. 

Having his Honorblade restored the surges to him, but he does not have the power he did before originally giving up his Blade. 

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'll try to find the WoB concerning it, but the asterisk is referring to the fact that before Honor was splintered, the Honorblades had a direct connection to Honor and the Heralds did not need Stormlight to use the surges. 

Having his Honorblade restored the surges to him, but he does not have the power he did before originally giving up his Blade. 

Quote

[04:22]
Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?
A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.
Q: Like Vin and Elend?
A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.
Q: The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?
A: RAFO

From the Boskone signing

Edited July 28, 2017 by Extesian