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Preservation and Sixteen


Koldun

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While Metal as the focus on Scadrial does glow in the CR, I don't think we can assume that will always be the case. 

A non-physical focus isn't going to show up the same way. I've argued in other threads that I think bonds are the focus on Roshar, but in an attempt not to completely derail this thread further, I'll point to Nalthis. We know the focus there is commands. I don't think we're going to see a brightly lit focus just hanging around in the Nalthian CR. 

Edited by Calderis
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2 hours ago, bleeder said:

Hmm... Does Taldaini Invested sand glow in the Cognitive?

I would think yes, because it's invested. Although, technically it's the plants growing on the sand which is invested, not the sand. This is for a different reason than why metals glow though. I think I read somewhere that metals glow because they're a screen over the spiritual power, like a piece of fabric over a window when it's really bright outside. I'll have to check for a source though.

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10 hours ago, Calderis said:

We know the focus there is commands.

I'm not disputing the idea of your post, since a focus that isn't a physical item shouldn't really show up in the cognitive. Although, Roshar should have a bead for language so Commands might...

Anyway, my only question is do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this, and it would be nice to have another focus confirmed

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11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm not disputing the idea of your post, since a focus that isn't a physical item shouldn't really show up in the cognitive. Although, Roshar should have a bead for language so Commands might...

Sel, the focus appears to be conceptual too. While the concepts of the symbols might appear in the cognitive realm, how they interact with the power would probably look weird.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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32 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm not disputing the idea of your post, since a focus that isn't a physical item shouldn't really show up in the cognitive. Although, Roshar should have a bead for language so Commands might...

Anyway, my only question is do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this, and it would be nice to have another focus confirmed

I've done some searches and am having trouble finding anything. I've seen it referenced so many times I took it for granted and now I'm wondering if it's just an assumption. So I guess I'll keep searching and try to edit with an update, but for the time being I'll have to assume I was wrong and we don't actually know. damnation

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Just now, Calderis said:

I've done some searches and am having trouble finding anything. I've seen it referenced so many times I took it for granted and now I'm wondering if it's just an assumption. So I guess I'll keep searching and try to edit with an update, but for the time being I'll have to assume I was wrong and we don't actually know. damnation

I've done that more than once too. No worries

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Okay, it took more Searching than I wanted but I found it. I'm going to spoiler tag the quote from @Chaos just for length. The second paragraph is the most  relevant part of the quote as it deals with the source of confirmation. 

Spoiler
On 7/26/2011 at 10:49 PM, Chaos said:

Ever since I read the first pages of Way of Kings, I've been thinking how the magic works on Roshar, and one question that consistently pops up in my mind is, "What is Surgebinding's focus?" I don't think we've attacked this question much on the boards, but if it's been discussed, let me know?

Some backstory: In my own discussion with Brandon (from 2009, I believe), he said that Aons are the focuses for AonDor, metal is the focus for the Metallic Arts. Those are sort of no-brainers. But then he surprised me, and said that the Commands are the focus in Warbreaker. At the time, I had guessed color, so that revelation blindsided me.

It blindsided me so much, because focuses are extremely important objects, which are directly related to Shards. Ruin and Preservation are blind to metal. That’s surely no coincidence. We haven’t really discussed the mechanics behind that metal blindness, either. I had surmised that Shards were blind to their focus, but that isn’t exactly right. Endowment can’t be blind to Commands.

Under Cuaiir’s Three Parts of Magic theory--which I adore--we could perhaps say that Shards are blind to the Physical component of the magic. I believe Will (possibly not) suggested to me that Endowment could be blind to color and/or art, which is pretty cool in its own right. That Physical component need not be the focus.

So, what is a focus? It seems to me that a focus is a specific conduit which “activates” Spiritual power to act in a corresponding, specific manner.

The metals are the most obvious example, because each metal does a specific thing. Each Aon does a specific thing, and though you can modify it with additional lines, the completed Aon draws forth the Dor’s power in a specific way. The modifying lines, in fact, make it even more specific. In Awakening, the Commands are the focus because the Command shapes the BioChromatic Investiture to a specific shape. The specificity is key.

I have a quote which may support this idea of specificity, but it’s woefully out of context. Maybe you’ll buy it, maybe not.

What I mean is, there is a specific conduit in the form of Allomancy. Shards can do much more than fueling magic, so that Physical form eventually vaporizes. However, backing up a second to regular magic users, we need a conduit for magic to work. We’re in the Physical Realm.

The Physical Realm is rigid and specific. Perhaps for magic to work for humans--in the Physical Realm--we need a specific focus.

Okay, that was kind of weak logic. These quotes are out of context, and I’m ignoring the fact that focuses don’t necessarily have to be Physical in nature, as evidenced by Commands. But, while the reasons may not be very sound, for now, I believe that specificity is a key component in defining a focus. It “focuses” the power to a specific effect. Seems reasonable to me.

If you agree with that definition of focus, then I’ll stop babbling and get to the point. (I babble a lot) On to Roshar!

The first candidate that I recall for Surgebinding’s focus was Stormlight. That never quite seemed right to me, and with this definition of “focus,” I finally understand why. Stormlight is a fuel, like the Dor or color [Aside: It is interesting that one of these “fuels” is Spiritual in nature, and the other is Physical. That’s not relevant to this present discussion, though]]. That’s what Surgebinding is drawing its power from, certainly. But it’s no more a focus than color or the Dor is.

I’m pondering on this specificity idea. What’s “specific” in Surgebinding? It seems that the focus shapes which powers you get. What differentiates Jasnah to Kaladin? (Assuming that Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, that is) There’s a distribution of powers, just like with Allomancy. Let’s set aside the fact that Allomancy has that genetic component, which determines what power you get, because you still need the specific focus for the magic to work. What’s the specific conduit that determines Radiant powers?

It isn’t Stormlight, as it lacks specificity. Gems are a potential candidate, too, since there are different kinds of spheres. Unfortunately for that idea, it doesn’t matter what spheres Kaladin (or Jasnah) bring, just that they are infused with Stormlight.

I can only think of one other component that is a possible candidate: spren.

Sure, we’ve only seen Kaladin bond with an Honorspren, and in the past vision, Nohaden references Honorspren specifically. But Jasnah and Shallan sure as hell aren’t seeing Honorspren. Different spren, different power.

((Szeth is an aberration, because he might not have a spren. I’m leaving him out of this paradigm for now because we lack sufficient information to understand why Szeth can do what he does. But there could be some way to replicate a spren bond without the spren, just as there is a way to steal Spiritual DNA and make you into an Allomancy. Maybe a spren died to give Szeth his power :P Just kidding. Maybe.))

Someone said that abilities in Roshar are granted not on a heriditary basis, but by what you do. That claim is in desperate need of some proper citations, but let’s take that as fact for a moment.

Your abilities attract a certain type of spren. This spren bonds with you. The type of spren is what determines what type of Surgebinding you get.

And fabrials are related to spren, too. Navani’s notebook time!

So, the type of gem is important, but that’s a mean to an end to attract a spren. The variety of spren is obviously a key component, or else cutting a gemstone wouldn’t be necessary. I’m no fabrial expert, but I just reread through the Ars Arcanum, and it seems that fabrials are either manipulating (in the case of Augmenters or Diminishers) or sensing (with Warning Fabrials) things that could be like Surges.

In the case of Augmenters:

Warning Fabrials:

“Phenomenon” is vague. But Surges sort of represent forces, and fabrials seem imitating them, with spren. (So I guess there will be some Surgebinding powers related to emotions and sensations)

In the Ars Arcanum, it references in Warning Fabrials “These fabrials use a heliodor stone as their focus.” Well, no fabrial is going to work without a spren, so I’m more interested at which spren is attracted to a specific stone.

There is a lot of information in that Ars Arcanum with stone type and attributes. If only there was a column for Surge Name! :P

Anyways, I’m digressing. This means I should wrap up before I say something dumb.

In review, I like the idea that spren are the focus for Surgebinding (or the bond with spren, whatever). It has a nice relation to the Principle of Intent, since bonds are important. It is certainly possible that there exist stranger spren than the obvious ones we see every day, which could be as weird as Honorspren.

Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, there are some issues with this idea.

-”Honor” has a special significance to, well, Honor. If Honorspren are set above other spren, this is problematic for the theory, since there would need to be a spren for each order of Radiants. They’d need to be equal, so to speak.

-It makes the nature of spren an even more alluring question.

-The second page of Navani’s notebook says that different Stormlight patterns filtered through the gem give the fabrial its power. It doesn’t invalidate this theory, but it does give greater significance to the gemstone than I am granting it.

 

 

Edited by Calderis
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12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Okay, it took more Searching than I wanted but I found it. I'm going to spoiler tag the quote from @Chaos just for length. The second paragraph is the relevant part of the quote. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

So, theory, not fact. Make sure you keep that in mind when you're using it to argue a point. Overall, that post is interesting, even if it is slightly outdated. I agree with most points made.

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29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Okay, it took more Searching than I wanted but I found it. I'm going to spoiler tag the quote from @Chaos just for length. The second paragraph is the most  relevant part of the quote as it deals with the source of confirmation.

Thanks for finding the post. Now for me to ponder how I missed this when I perused the entirety of the theories section to catch up on current events when I came back the to forums...

Edited by The One Who Connects
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No problem. I'd rather put in the effort to find something and either know I was right, or prove myself wrong, than feel crazy like I imagined something that never happened. If I clarify things for others while proving to myself I'm not nuts, all the better. 

Edited by Calderis
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21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My only real point with that was that Brandon confirmed commands as Nalthis' focus. The rest was mainly contextual. 

Oh sorry, I missed the part where Chaos said that Brandon confirmed it. Would be nice to have an actual transcript of the answer though.

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5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Oh sorry, I missed the part where Chaos said that Brandon confirmed it. Would be nice to have an actual transcript of the answer though.

Here's something. Different time, different place, but its the validation the Coppermind uses.

Quote

So during revisions, I changed this. Instead of requiring a lengthy Command to create a powerful Awakening, the strength and skill of the Awakener is instead determined by their ability to visualize what they want the Command to do. The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture.

 

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14 hours ago, Yata said:

Now returning to us, both Shallan and Jasnah (the latter much more) had pow in the Cognitive and the Spren didn't seems to bright more....They have both Black Spren, a radiance (pun intended) Will be noticed.

Okay, I wonder if topography, color, and contrast aren't the only things mirrored in the Cognitive realm?  Perhaps Size is as well.  Exhaustion spren in the real world are very small, but in Roshar's CR they are startlingly large, so much that Shallan couldn't recognize them, then we also have the Grinders from the quasi-cannon Jasnah micro-story.  We have the large luminescient strider spren that walks the highstorm in the real world on spindly legs (Oathbringer- Dalinar flashback of the Party).  I wonder if in the CR it would be Mouse size, has anyone got a good theory as to what that spren was?  The StormFather manifests as a sky sized head, but the thing does seem to fling a boulder at Dalinar, so it could be the StormFather.  I presume it either retreats to the CR between storms, as I didn't get the impression that the storm goes all the way around the planet... I got the impression that it is born in the east and dies in the west, but does not actually completely circle the globe, or if they (Highstom and StormStrider) do then they might drop into the cognitive realm so the storm is always over land.  Do we have quotes of the Highstorm in the CR?  I'll search later, if someone doesn't have them handy.

Edited by Hawkido
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In Elantris, probably the ars arcanum, doesn't somebody say an elantrian can't accidentally create and release an aon's power? That would argue that aons are a mostly cognitive focus, and not just physical markings.

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3 minutes ago, john203 said:

In Elantris, probably the ars arcanum, doesn't somebody say an elantrian can't accidentally create and release an aon's power? That would argue that aons are a mostly cognitive focus, and not just physical markings.

You can't drawn an Aon for accident...you have to want to make it (as almost every Magic in the Cosmere). Of course simply willing isn't enough to obtain any kind of effect, you have to know the right form to do it.

The Form is the key part, The Aon's "forges" the Dor into the appropriate effect

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