Oathbringer Prologue (spoilers)

[Argent]

58 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

What?

How is being a Radiant not about Oaths? The only non-Radiant Surgebinders we've seen have had Honorblades. Every other Surgebinder we know about has been a Radiant, and thus said Oaths. Can you please elaborate?

Recall Jasnah early in Words of Radiance (on the boat) teaching Shallan about what she is. In short, she says that Shallan is not a Radiant (and, for the record, Teft insists that Kaladin is not one either) - but she could become one. She then goes on and talks about how being a Knight is more about belonging to the organization (the Knights Radiant) than it is about Surgebinding. Anyone can Surgebind (assuming you got a spren), but that doesn't automatically make them a Radiant - Shallan (if I recall correctly) makes an analogy about people who wield a sword and soldiers; both groups can do similar things (like Surgebinders and Radiants can manipulate the Surges), but being able to swing a sword does not make you a soldier.

[Siaun Sanche]

6 hours ago, jofwu said:

Well, I think he's just really arrogant.

That's for sure. Gavilar is condescending and insulting to Eshonai during that whole conversation, when he's ostensibly trying to win her over. Still, if he elides the most important part of his plan that seems more elliptical and opaque than arrogant.

6 hours ago, jofwu said:

Good question about Amaram. Considering how close they seem to be, I imagine they're working together pretty closely. And isn't there some scene where he makes a comment along the lines of "we did it, Gavilar!" Though I guess that doesn't mean Amaram doesn't have his own "style". Or that he was fully aware of everything Gavilar knew.

The reason I ask about Amaram is that it's pretty clear that he understood the plan to mean the Parshendi would turn into Voidbringers. From his viewpoint at the end of Words of Radiance: "I can only conclude ... that we have been successful, Restares. The reports from Dalinar's army indicate that Voidbringers were not only spotted, but fought. Red eyes, ancient powers. They have apparently unleashed a new storm upon the world." When he thinks "Gavilar would be proud," he means of the return of the Voidbringers.

Now, the sticky wicket here is that Restares is one of the people that Gavilar mentions to Szeth in his last moments as having possibly ordered his assassination. So there's another element to this that we don't understand fully (or at least, that I don't understand).

Having said that, I tend to think that Amaram knows the broad strokes of what Gavilar is up to. If Gavilar had a secret plan to get the Parshendi to fight the old gods, then Amaram would have known at least that such a plan existed--because the alternative is that Gavilar made himself seem crazier to Amaram than he really was, and led Amaram to try rust that Gavilar wouldn't have wanted.

[WeiryWriter]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:33 PM, Oversleep said:

Thanks

Seriously? 10 years after publication of WoA Ruin being freed would be a spoiler?

I mean, it's one thing to talk about Shadows of Self or Bands of Mourning without spoiler tags in Stormlight subforum... but original trilogy?

Yes it's a spoiler. Don't presume that just because someone has read Stormlight they've also read Mistborn, and also new people are reading the books all the time. It is forum policy to place plot-relevent spoilers from another series in spoiler tags.

[Pagerunner]

4 hours ago, Argent said:

Recall Jasnah early in Words of Radiance (on the boat) teaching Shallan about what she is. In short, she says that Shallan is not a Radiant (and, for the record, Teft insists that Kaladin is not one either) - but she could become one. She then goes on and talks about how being a Knight is more about belonging to the organization (the Knights Radiant) than it is about Surgebinding. Anyone can Surgebind (assuming you got a spren), but that doesn't automatically make them a Radiant - Shallan (if I recall correctly) makes an analogy about people who wield a sword and soldiers; both groups can do similar things (like Surgebinders and Radiants can manipulate the Surges), but being able to swing a sword does not make you a soldier.

Quote

"So you're saying what we can do..."

"Was once the definition of what initiated one into the Knights Radiant," Jasnah said.

Jasnah is saying they can't be Radiants because there are no Orders around anymore. Like saying you can be a Sand Master without being a part of the Diem. But that doesn't jive with what we've seen elsewhere; you can't get the same Surgebinding powers as Windrunners without following the ideals of the Windrunners and bonding a Windrunner's spren. And the progression of the Nahel bond presumably gives all the Radiant trappings, like Shardblades and Shardplate, regardless of whether or not you're officially part of a hierarchy, which Kaladin, Shallan, and company were not until the end of Book 2.

What does it mean to be a Knight Radiant? Is it what Jasnah believes, that it's being part of an organization (which is why she gives the analogy of using a sword but not being in the army)? Is it having the abilities that the Radiant had: Shardblades, Shardplate, Surgebinding, Stormlight? Is it the First Oath, which binds them all in a common path in Roshar? Is it the spren bonds which allows them to remain as Cognitive Shadows, fighting in the Heralds' place on Braize? (Yeah, we're going way down some rabbit trails right now.)

It might be splitting hairs over definitions. I think we both agree that being a Surgebinder is only part of being a Radiant. But the way I see it, saying oaths perpetuates all aspects of Radianthood, not just Surgebinding, and that under the current system, you can't be a Surgebinder without being a Radiant or wielding an Honorblade.

[Argent]

10 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

It might be splitting hairs over definitions.

Maybe...

 

10 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

But the way I see it, saying oaths perpetuates all aspects of Radianthood, not just Surgebinding, and that under the current system, you can't be a Surgebinder without being a Radiant or wielding an Honorblade.

... but I disagree with this. Fundamentally. You believe that being a Radiant is a prerequisite for being a Surgebinder; I believe the opposite. Wielding a sword is a prerequisite for being a soldier, not the other way around. Moreover, being a better soldier doesn't necessarily mean you can use your weapon better.

So, considering that one of our most reliable in-world sources (Jasnah) is telling us that this is how things are, I am not going to to start doubting her without a significant reason. 

Regardless, I think the reason we started this discussion is because there were concerns that Gavilar may have been playing it a little hard and fast with the First Ideal, and so he couldn't have been a Radiant. Our discussion (and, in fact, my first post on it) doesn't contribute to that in any meaningful way.

[asdfman]

21 hours ago, dionysus said:

For example, let's say I take an oath to do something that I believe should do some good. After I take the oath, I discover that there will be unintended negative consequences. Both keeping my oath and breaking my oath can both be considered honorable. Would Honor have a definitive choice that aligns with his intent, or would both fit under his intent.

I've always viewed this as the inherit difference between Windrunners (Always do the "right" thing in the context of individual situations regardless of greater implications) and Skybreakers (Always do the right thing in the context of society / the greater good, which manifests as upholding the law, i.e. Justice is blind and should be universally applied regardless of situation). 

Essentially, both are aspects of Honor that can sometimes be opposed, which is why you see mention of conflict / disagreement between Windrunners and Skybreakers in WoR.

 

[Soulcatcher]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:20 PM, jofwu said:

Somebody was comparing the ability to speak in the rhythms to the way Ruin spoke. I'm not convinced it has to be a Shard speaking.

My first thought was that an Unmade is responsible... But I can't think of any support for this.

WoK pg. 671   
"He watches!" the boy hissed. "The black piper in the night. He holds us in his palm. . . playing a tune that no man can hear!"    
Cenn's eyes glazed over. He stopped breathing.    

 

No man can hear the Black Piper's tune. But the Parshendi might.

[maxal]

11 hours ago, Argent said:

Maybe...

 

... but I disagree with this. Fundamentally. You believe that being a Radiant is a prerequisite for being a Surgebinder; I believe the opposite. Wielding a sword is a prerequisite for being a soldier, not the other way around. Moreover, being a better soldier doesn't necessarily mean you can use your weapon better.

So, considering that one of our most reliable in-world sources (Jasnah) is telling us that this is how things are, I am not going to to start doubting her without a significant reason. 

Regardless, I think the reason we started this discussion is because there were concerns that Gavilar may have been playing it a little hard and fast with the First Ideal, and so he couldn't have been a Radiant. Our discussion (and, in fact, my first post on it) doesn't contribute to that in any meaningful way.

I think we should be wary of using Jasnah's comments at face value. After all, she is working with incomplete information she has painstakingly gathered out of misplaced forgotten centuries old texts. She also lacks the most crucial element of theory making: ground testing. In other words, she has no field experience to back up her claims nor does she have an appreciative sample of Radiants to study from. She is all but her one sample. All her knowledge is taken from her own personal experience and archaic partial text books. Hence, when Jasnah comes forth and say you can be a surgebinder without being a Radiant, then I do feel we need to be cautious before stating she must be right.

Therefore, surgebinder or Radiant, which one comes first? I think the sword and soldier analogy is not entirely appropriate as one can yield a sword without being a soldier on his own volition while one certainly cannot decide to become a surgebinder. Having access to surges imply being chosen by a spren and, as far as we currently know, one cannot force a spren to grant him such powers. Therefore, to have access to surgebinding, once must necessarily be a proto-knight of any given spren which implies a Nahel bond. The one wiggling room I see is if it were possible to remain a level 2 proto-Radiant for a lifetime, if it were possible to retain a Nahel bond without ever saying the final oaths thus completing the final stage before becoming a fully fledged Radiant. Seeing how Syl, Pattern and Wyndle literally force their knight to say their next oaths, I currently have a hard time believing it is possible, but it might very well be so and it might be what Jasnah read about. 

As for Gavilar, I think it might be we are misinterpreting the first oath. It says the journey before the destination, but what is the journey and what is the destination? So far, we have leaned towards thinking most characters guilty of murder to have put the ending (death) before the journey (any other decision making), but what if we got it wrong? Gavilar is apparently willing to do all he could to trigger a Desolation just so this additional thread might cement his kingdom into a more lasting one while bringing back his dear Heralds so he could feel more important. The cost is the live of his own people, the endgame, a stronger unity. What is the journey and what is the destination? Seeing how many of our Radiants turn out to be unlikable individuals with debatable morality, it might be the "journey" isn't linked to their actions, but to their internal progress as they move towards their final oaths while the destination merely is... becoming a knight. Hence, when Gavilar wants to sent his country to the slaughter house out of selfishness but, more importantly he also seems convinced he is obeying his code and those visions... so in a weird negative way, he is becoming more pious and while the end result might be catastrophic, it might be he was following the ideology of the first oath by endorsing the "unity" oath. 

If this is true, then our Radiants might not be the heroes we think they are. After all, they were hated and feared all across Roshar: such feelings do not sprout out of thin air. Vorinism likely only exacerbate thoughts which already existed within the main population. My thoughts are thus the Radiants might have stop working as one unit to focus on their individual order. Seeing how Gavilar was leaning, seeing the questionable individuals being invited within Radiant ranks, we might be able to assume the orders need one and another to function. 

Hence, the Bondsmith needs the Edgedancer and the Skybreaker needs the Windrunner.

[geoffw35]

It is easy to see Gavilar as an arrogant man willing to bring on the next Desolation in order to stop the petty squabbling of the High Princes and to pull the world together to fight the real enemy. That is very risky (crazy?) and has the potential to destroy the world. That is one legitimate interpretation. However, Odium may be temporarily caged in some manner but has not been beaten and the latter is what I believe Gavilar believes must happen; to finally finish the war that did not conclude but just was postponed. There is another reason why the very real threat of a Desolation might be necessary. And that is to make the spren willing to bond with humans again. Note that Ivory's bond is seen by many in Shadesmar as an act of betrayal. Re-founding the KR without that threat may be impossible. Some poster mentioned (maybe not in this thread, I don't remember) the possibility that the shards that we've seen called the corpses of spren might possibly be re-enlivened, so that the spren could bond with another person. Do many of you believe this is a real possibility? It assumes, I think, that those who now own the shard blades would be the type who would want to do this and be acceptable. Or, alternatively, that some group might take it upon themselves to start killing shard bearers and collecting them for the purpose of giving them to those worthy of the bond associated with the spren of that shard.

[Siaun Sanche]

4 hours ago, geoffw35 said:

It is easy to see Gavilar as an arrogant man willing to bring on the next Desolation in order to stop the petty squabbling of the High Princes and to pull the world together to fight the real enemy. That is very risky (crazy?) and has the potential to destroy the world. That is one legitimate interpretation. However, Odium may be temporarily caged in some manner but has not been beaten and the latter is what I believe Gavilar believes must happen; to finally finish the war that did not conclude but just was postponed. 

Gavilar's motivations, as expressed in the prologue to Eshonai, are a mixture of both interpretations, and I think the first weighs heavier on his mind than the second.

If for example Odium is temporarily caged but must be finally defeated, that might be an argument for _somebody_ to take the fight to Odium. But why Gavilar, and why now? He doesn't say that there's a ticking clock--he says basically the opposite. And it's not like he says that he's got a good reason why it should be him to do the fighting, or that the kingdom is particularly well-prepared either. (There are parshmen everywhere in Alethkar, after all.) So why does he want to start the end of the world and fight the battle of Armageddon, according to him? Because life is drab without battle and peace is causing his kingdom to fall apart.

[geoffw35]

17 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Gavilar's motivations, as expressed in the prologue to Eshonai, are a mixture of both interpretations, and I think the first weighs heavier on his mind than the second.

If for example Odium is temporarily caged but must be finally defeated, that might be an argument for _somebody_ to take the fight to Odium. But why Gavilar, and why now? He doesn't say that there's a ticking clock--he says basically the opposite. And it's not like he says that he's got a good reason why it should be him to do the fighting, or that the kingdom is particularly well-prepared either. (There are parshmen everywhere in Alethkar, after all.) So why does he want to start the end of the world and fight the battle of Armageddon, according to him? Because life is drab without battle and peace is causing his kingdom to fall apart.

That is how his conversation went, but I'm not convinced it is his reason. I think that his desire is to bring back the heralds and the KR. Not that he will take the fight to Odium, but that he and those he works with, Mr. T, Amaram et al, are attempting to cause a crisis sufficient to shock the heralds and the spren into returning in order that the true battle against Odium can resume and be finished one way or another. I know that speculation is rampant in this thread, and it's so fun! Oathbringer should make this much clearer, I believe. Having fallen in love with these books, the wait is almost painful. 

[Siaun Sanche]

32 minutes ago, geoffw35 said:

That is how his conversation went, but I'm not convinced it is his reason. I think that his desire is to bring back the heralds and the KR. Not that he will take the fight to Odium, but that he and those he works with, Mr. T, Amaram et al, are attempting to cause a crisis sufficient to shock the heralds and the spren into returning in order that the true battle against Odium can resume and be finished one way or another. I know that speculation is rampant in this thread, and it's so fun! Oathbringer should make this much clearer, I believe. Having fallen in love with these books, the wait is almost painful. 

Taravangian doesn't want to jump start the Desolation. Taravangian thinks that one is happening anyway, and soon. ("The Desolation needs no usher," in his words.)

[Jofwu]

3 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Taravangian doesn't want to jump start the Desolation. Taravangian thinks that one is happening anyway, and soon. ("The Desolation needs no usher," in his words.)

I'm under the impression that perhaps he was onboadd with that... Until the Diagram happened.

[Siaun Sanche]

2 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I'm under the impression that perhaps he was onboadd with that... Until the Diagram happened.

That makes sense to me. Presumably once Gavilar died he thought he was the best positioned to carry out Gavilar's plan.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Harry the Heir

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:51 AM, emailanimal said:

My view of pragmatic way is "let's do everything we can to postpone this until very very late". 

Depends. If Odium is getting stronger/building up forces, starting the Desolation early -- before Odium is ready -- might be the best chance of winning it.

And Gavilar wanted to get the Parshendi involved for this, so it sounds like if his plan had worked, Alethkar would be much better shape to deal with the Desolation than they actually are now that it's happened.

[Siaun Sanche]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

And Gavilar wanted to get the Parshendi involved for this, so it sounds like if his plan had worked, Alethkar would be much better shape to deal with the Desolation than they actually are now that it's happened.

According to Amaram, Gavilar's plan did work--the events at the end of WoR were what Gavilar wanted to happen (save for his own assassination, I imagine). There was no other plan that involved fighting alongside the Parshendi against their old gods.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Harry the Heir
clarity

[geoffw35]

On 2/12/2017 at 0:02 PM, Harry the Heir said:

Taravangian doesn't want to jump start the Desolation. Taravangian thinks that one is happening anyway, and soon. ("The Desolation needs no usher," in his words.)

I remember that. But he is not sitting on his hands waiting. He is trying to reform the world to prepare it for the coming desolation. Whether his murders will end up strengthening the world or making things worse is yet to be seen. I didn't mean to say that I thought Taravangian, Amaram and Gavilar were all thinking along the same lines, but their ideas do align to some degree. Amaram wants to return power to the Vorin leadership as well as bringing back the Voidbringers. I don't know whether Gavilar feels the same about Vorin power, but both of them feel the return of the voidbringers is necessary for the heralds to return and for the KR to be re-founded. Gavilar was also in communication with Taravangian until he was murdered. They may have had different tactics but I don't think they are opposed. 

 

[Siaun Sanche]

11 minutes ago, geoffw35 said:

I remember that. But he is not sitting on his hands waiting. He is trying to reform the world to prepare it for the coming desolation. Whether his murders will end up strengthening the world or making things worse is yet to be seen. I didn't mean to say that I thought Taravangian, Amaram and Gavilar were all thinking along the same lines, but their ideas do align to some degree. Amaram wants to return power to the Vorin leadership as well as bringing back the Voidbringers. I don't know whether Gavilar feels the same about Vorin power, but both of them feel the return of the voidbringers is necessary for the heralds to return and for the KR to be re-founded. Gavilar was also in communication with Taravangian until he was murdered. They may have had different tactics but I don't think they are opposed. 

I dunno. Would Amaram, who seems to be personally loyal to Gavilar's legacy, be on board with the murder of Elhokar and Dalinar? Would Taravangian be all "agree to disagree" about triggering the Desolation before his plans are in order? I think they're mainly not opposed to each other because Amaram couldn't do much up until now and Taravangian has other fish to fry.

[Darkness]

I think it's important to keep in mind that Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher after Gavilar's death. I dont recall hearing that Taravangian had his own plans at all before then. I always thought that he was working toward the same purposes as Gavilar - and by extension Amaram. Heck he may even have been in the Sons of Honor. Consider the following: King T is happily draining people of blood to help Gavilar and the Sons get an idea of what they had to do. Gavilar is the main figure the Sons are gathering behind, but then he gets himself dead. King T then visits the Nightwatcher (I would presume because he didn't have confidence that the Sons of Honor could fully carry out the good work without Gavilar). So he went and asked for the capacity to save the world or whatever, and sometime after (I don't know... Days? Months? Years?) he had that one day of beatific scribbling.

I suspect his divergence from Amaram and the Sons of Honor really started to pick up from there. (but it might have already begun before that during the Gavilar days or in the fallout after Gavilar's death).

I mean, that's all just speculation, and please let me know if my timelines are messed up, but it makes sense to me if Amaram and Taravangian were working together until Taravangian began doubting, and then received a different plan.

[geoffw35]

On 2/13/2017 at 6:51 PM, Harry the Heir said:

I dunno. Would Amaram, who seems to be personally loyal to Gavilar's legacy, be on board with the murder of Elhokar and Dalinar? Would Taravangian be all "agree to disagree" about triggering the Desolation before his plans are in order? I think they're mainly not opposed to each other because Amaram couldn't do much up until now and Taravangian has other fish to fry.

I'm not saying that. I don't think Amaram would want to murder Elhokar or Dalinar. I take him at his word that he wants to bring the High Princes together despite their antagonism and petty squabbling. He certainly is an ends justify the means type of guy. It seems like he has justified his treatment of Kaladin but also seems to be clueless that his own greed is mixed into that justification.

The "patriots" do want Elhokar dead and they have access to the diagram. Does that mean that Taravangian is OK with this plan to murder the king? Graves said they were allowed to pursue their own goals and interests until they are "called up". Does this mean called up by Taravangian? Could be. Whether that group wants to see the return of the voidbringers is not clear.

Taravangian wants Dalinar killed, but it seems his reason is the potential for a peace treaty with the Listeners. So I presume he too wants the return of the voidbringers. So many groups with differing goals and ambitions, some of which seem to align. I suspect that Taravangian, when he collects the information from all his spies, will want to support Dalinar in his war against the voidbringers and will see him as an ally.

Edited February 15, 2017 by geoffw35

[Humpty]

No the diagram tells Mr T how to stop the upcoming desolation.. "There has to be an answer. What is the answer? Stop. The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one their obtains power. It will form a bridge."  the Bridge in this quote is talking about a bridge formed from Braize where Odium resides to Roshar. Hence ushering a new desolation.  So Mr. T is not like Amaram and the Sons of Honor at all.

[skaa]

Fascinating bits of speculation, guys!

On 2/8/2017 at 6:23 AM, Extesian said:

Sorry for being unclear, I meant that the black sphere is a gem, just one that has been cut in the shape of a sphere. I'm not sure what a flawless gem emails in terms of being perfectly efficient at trapping light but I thought if you have the technology to do so perfectly, cutting a gem into a perfect sphere may perfectly trap the light. In other words it's not a glass sphere with a gem inside, it's a spherical gem.

But that may be wrong from a physics perspective, it was just a thought.

Yeah, I've always thought it was a spherical cabochon. Now, since it's described as "faintly violet", I'm guessing it's an amethyst cabochon darkened by "voidlight". The gemstone that contained the Stormspren used by Eshonai was also described as a sphere in WoR I-5 (and as a violet one in I-4), but that one had Stormlight in it so it was apparently a different gemstone.

Edited February 15, 2017 by skaa

[+Extesian]

3 hours ago, skaa said:

Fascinating bits of speculation, guys!

Yeah, I've always thought it was a spherical cabochon. Now, since it's described as "faintly violet", I'm guessing it's an amethyst cabochon darkened by "voidlight". The gemstone that contained the Stormspren used by Eshonai was also described as a sphere in WoR I-5 (and as a violet one in I-4), but that one had Stormlight in it so it was apparently a different gemstone.

Excellent, the theory sound much better with the right terminology The idea makes the most sense to me with Brandon saying about a theoretical flawless gem and the references to the color changing with voidlight make a lot of sense.

[Jofwu]

7 hours ago, skaa said:

Yeah, I've always thought it was a spherical cabochon.

Hm, not to go too far into a tangent, but this got my mind stirring...

I always assumed the existence of spheres (i.e. gems in a ball of glass) was based on the usage of Radiants. Meaning Radiants essentially started to use them, then they became a form of money, and so on.

But now I'm wondering if the Radiants used straight up cabochons (because, perhaps, they are more efficient at holding stormlight). And then spheres were derived from these (people needed smaller gems for normal monetary use... added the glass to keep them a reasonable size... and started cutting them because that was easier and they looked prettier).

[BlackYeti]

12 hours ago, Humpty said:

No the diagram tells Mr T how to stop the upcoming desolation.. "There has to be an answer. What is the answer? Stop. The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one their obtains power. It will form a bridge."  the Bridge in this quote is talking about a bridge formed from Braize where Odium resides to Roshar. Hence ushering a new desolation.  So Mr. T is not like Amaram and the Sons of Honor at all.

That's not what is meant here according to this WoP:

Quote

What does "It will form a bridge." actually mean? Should I take it literally?

Peter

This is a metaphorical bridge. Basically, the Diagram says it would be super dangerous for their plans if one of the Parshendi formed a Radiant spren bond and became a Radiant. They would be able to bridge the gap between the cultures and throw a wrench into the sequence of events that the Diagram thinks needs to take place.

In future, please try not to state speculation as fact: there are people who will assume that it's actually been confirmed.