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Waning, ch. 10 (L,S)


neongrey

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This one absorbs the old chapters 6, 7, and some of 8. People talk about taxes in it.

Previously: Lasila Vahendra has been doing her best to squeeze in research about the legalities of the dread magic the priestess Maranthe said she possessed, but has needed to devote her time to addressing her client's marriage contract.

Savae Alevrin's been struggling to balance their duties fulfilling the desires of the goddess of the moons with their political duties dealing with the criminal Ashana family.

Now, both of them are in attendance at the celebration of the goddess Alia's revival; one of them is soon going to find these two things come into conflict, and the other will find the two sets of duties are one and the same.

Last time: a trilogy of short chapters about disgruntled people
This time: a lot of conversations where nobody lies not even once, honest.
Next time: Full frontal nudity!

Edited by neongrey
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We can't just skip to the nudity? No? Bah. Fine.

Overall

Nothing technically to gripe about. The dialogue was clean and the pace reasonable. Exceptions below. I left the chapter feeling like something was missing, however, like the chapter promised something it didn't deliver. I don't know what that would be, other than maybe an upping of stakes or tension at the end, so I apologize that I can't be more clear. I think you've got the descriptions down well now, and Savae delights, as always!

As I go

- I do enjoy the makeup and dressing descriptions in the first two pages. I think you've found a good balance.

- also enjoying the back and forth banter on page two

- by the end of page three I'm getting bored with the carriage ride. It's not that the dialogue is boring. In fact it is interesting, but the length is too long, I think. By the top of page four my mind started to wander, even though I wanted to read the text.

- end of page five. Too many introductions and names. Having a hard time keeping them in my mind

- LOL Savae. Never gets old. Drinking and watching people boink. Excellent.

- page nine: the bracelet glass still confuses me. I thought it just had some cordial left in it? But its blood?

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Pg 1: still a bit too much talking about clothes for me, considering it goes on to the next page. I find myself starting to skim.

End of page 2: There's another layer of text going on underneath what they're saying, but it's hard to put motivations to the words. Are they spiteful, or just playing?

Beginning of page 3: "very clearly not saying that she's no longer a girl."
--I think this sort of thing is where I'm having a problem with the subtext. Is this conversation so subtle that one side needs to affirm basic facts of the other side in order to not appear snide and dismissive? Does Lasila saying she did things as a girl somehow mean the other side thinks she's still immature?
It's not that the conversation is untrue, just that I fell like I'm missing a lot of underlying emotion without reading every word for multiple meanings, which is very tiring. Maybe it's just me.
In the next paragraph Lasila apologizes for her slight. Eshrin seems to accept it, but now I'm not sure. This is where I get confused with character motivations.

pg 4: Savae's 1st paragraph I had to read about three times. Kept confusing  "their"=overdressed fools for "their"=Savae in the next sentence and was
wondering how Savae knew how the fools' cordials tasted.

pg 5: Is Aserahin Ealis the crime lord Savae met earlier, or is it Varael Ashana? Lots of names here, and I have trouble remembering.
edit: I think I remember Varael being the crime lord...

pg 5: "So their little student's a senator's child. "
I think Savae has concluded that Kathalania is Mishtrobal's child, but I'm not completely sure.

pg 5: "In his ears, Savae catches sight of a pair of platinum earrings, and some truly scintillating moonstones. Good, good. "
--not sure why the moonstones, or maybe the platinum, is a good thing?

Pg 6/7: lots of talk here: about Lasila's brother, but nothing concrete as  no one saw anything, about the canals, but no theories, then Melqueth takes Eshrin away, maybe for some private time? Are there deeper meanings here I'm missing, or is all this just setup to get Iluya with Lasila? If so, could probably cut this section down.

pg 9: "A whim seizes them, and now they understand why they so idly worked with their glass before. "
--So Savae didn't know what they were doing? I would expect them to always be aware of the angles, from what I've read so far.

pg 9: What's going on with Riruna? Is Aserahin trying to take over the district? Or prop Riruna up? Sort of confused.

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5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

End of page 2: There's another layer of text going on underneath what they're saying, but it's hard to put motivations to the words. Are they spiteful, or just playing?

Yes.

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

--I think this sort of thing is where I'm having a problem with the subtext. Is this conversation so subtle that one side needs to affirm basic facts of the other side in order to not appear snide and dismissive? Does Lasila saying she did things as a girl somehow mean the other side thinks she's still immature?

It's interesting that it's this line that's catching you up, because it's very much a stock couple lines, 'i'm not a girl (anymore)'/(eyeball) 'no you're not', though he's leaving the last bit unsaid.

This is not all that subtle a conversation at all, really. They're attracted, but they don't much like each other. It seems like this is actually coming through fairly well; I suspect cleanup on the dialogue should take care of the rest of these issues.

6 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 5: Is Aserahin Ealis the crime lord Savae met earlier, or is it Varael Ashana? Lots of names here, and I have trouble remembering.
edit: I think I remember Varael being the crime lord...

Aserahin is the brother-in-law, with the legit name to be exploited. This has been established, but not recently, and is one of the things i've got in mind when I pause for rework before going forward when the section's done.

6 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 5: "In his ears, Savae catches sight of a pair of platinum earrings, and some truly scintillating moonstones. Good, good. "
--not sure why the moonstones, or maybe the platinum, is a good thing?

This, though, we spent a full chapter on, about three thousand words ago; I'm not too concerned about this one at this point. (they're the vector by which Savae is planning to kill Senator Riruna)

6 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Pg 6/7: lots of talk here: about Lasila's brother, but nothing concrete as  no one saw anything, about the canals, but no theories, then Melqueth takes Eshrin away, maybe for some private time? Are there deeper meanings here I'm missing, or is all this just setup to get Iluya with Lasila? If so, could probably cut this section down

Of all of the things going on here, Iluya taking Lasila off is probably the least important relative to the emphasizing the civil unrest that is largely not being taken seriously, the crumbling infrastructure that is not being paid for, Eshrin's disdain for his brother, etc, so yeah, and all of this is pretty surface-level. I don't think there's much hidden here, but you're also walking straight past a large part of the rest of the plot being laid out in favour of beelining for the promise of pretty girls kissing each other. :P Which, I mean, I'm open to rework on the conversation, but I wonder if some of this is more lack of premise clarity...

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

--So Savae didn't know what they were doing? I would expect them to always be aware of the angles, from what I've read so far.

Hmmmm.

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 9: What's going on with Riruna? Is Aserahin trying to take over the district? Or prop Riruna up? Sort of confused.

This is very early Savae stuff (too early, not reinforced enough); House Ashana wants to control a Senate seat; Aserahin is the only one in the organization who can legally hold one (Varael Ashana married Aserahin's twin sister; Ealis is a listed house). Senator Riruna needs to die for this to happen.

Thanks!

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11 hours ago, neongrey said:

This, though, we spent a full chapter on, about three thousand words ago; I'm not too concerned about this one at this point. (they're the vector by which Savae is planning to kill Senator Riruna)

I see. I thought these were the earrings, but then was looking for some confirmation from Savae about how hard they were to make or how the design might fail at an inappropriate time. The lack of Savae's reaction made me doubt they were the same earrings.

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Just now catching up on your chapters!

I enjoyed the description of dresses and makeup on page 1 - it's pretty!  

Page 2 had me a little confused.  I had trouble being confident in my reading of the subtext in the conversation, like Mandamon, but what was really tripping me up was that I thought Lasila didn't want to be going to the party with this guy, and she just seemed much more okay with it than I was expecting.  He seemed slightly annoyed but willing to be polite.  She seemed much more, "Oh, well, I guess he's attractive so this is fine."  I would have expected her to be more conflicted; attracted warring with dislike.  Does that make sense?  I think having her emotions come across more clearly would give me more of a foundation for the subtextiness of the conversation.

I also was surprised at how open she was about her nervousness.  I guess she's getting all rosy-eyed for this guy, because she usually seems much more guarded with people she doesn't know, especially politically significant figures.

"Do I seem that nervous?" she says. "I think it's just been too long."
Since she went to a big party, or since she had sex?

On January 26, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Mandamon said:
On January 25, 2017 at 9:26 PM, neongrey said:

This, though, we spent a full chapter on, about three thousand words ago; I'm not too concerned about this one at this point. (they're the vector by which Savae is planning to kill Senator Riruna)

I see. I thought these were the earrings, but then was looking for some confirmation from Savae about how hard they were to make or how the design might fail at an inappropriate time. The lack of Savae's reaction made me doubt they were the same earrings.

I had the same hang-up here.

Lasila wonders if she should take this as her cue to slip away. She hardly needs to witness this, and surely she can find some lovely mysterious stranger.
I was not expecting her to come to this party looking for some sexy time.  I never got the impression she was "on the market" or sexually motivated.  I just don't remember her thinking about this before.

Page 8: So is sex in this society inherently casual, even outside of religious rituals? Both Savae and Lasila seem fairly confident that they can get some, in some form, in a sort of "I could wander over to the bar and get a drink" sort of way.  They just seem rather unconcerned about it.  Kind of like how sometimes it's nice to paint your nails, but you don't think about it very often and it's not that big of a deal.  

A whim seizes them, and now they understand why they so idly worked with their glass before.
Not sure what you mean here.

Okay, so the trapped cordial is holding backwash - I didn't get that before.

"Why Riruna, anyway?" Savae asks. They stretch out on the chaise, looking up at the ceiling.
Seems casual for Savae.  Are the drugs getting to them this fast?

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24 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

but what was really tripping me up was that I thought Lasila didn't want to be going to the party with this guy, and she just seemed much more okay with it than I was expecting.  He seemed slightly annoyed but willing to be polite.  She seemed much more, "Oh, well, I guess he's attractive so this is fine."  I would have expected her to be more conflicted; attracted warring with dislike.  Does that make sense?  I think having her emotions come across more clearly would give me more of a foundation for the subtextiness of the conversation.

hmmm, yeah. nah, makes sense. That's some usable direction.

28 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

I also was surprised at how open she was about her nervousness.  I guess she's getting all rosy-eyed for this guy, because she usually seems much more guarded with people she doesn't know, especially politically significant figures.

Hmmmm. Yeah, I can look at this; there's two things here, one that she's basically pre-empting him acting based on her nervousness since she's assuming it's going to be obvious, and part of it is that while he's well above her socially, he also literally just has the same job her brother does, so other than the fact that Eshrin hangs out with senators like it's nothing, what he does isn't too far outside of her comfort zone, if that makes sense. I can slide this around some.

31 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

"Do I seem that nervous?" she says. "I think it's just been too long."
Since she went to a big party, or since she had sex?

The latter, definitely; she references not going to anything like this event before and the conversation is literally, not subtextually, about having sex, is that not helping?

31 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

I had the same hang-up here.

Hmmm.

There's reasons why, which are foreshadowed here and will become clear shortly, the earrings don't actually matter, but if there's no apparent connection between them at all, that's something to address.

34 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

Lasila wonders if she should take this as her cue to slip away. She hardly needs to witness this, and surely she can find some lovely mysterious stranger.
I was not expecting her to come to this party looking for some sexy time.  I never got the impression she was "on the market" or sexually motivated.  I just don't remember her thinking about this before.

It is, per the discussion earlier in the chapter and when the invitation is extended, fairly emphasized that it's the sort of party where that's expected, and while she's not actively looking for a relationship because she has no time she's been fairly frank in narration about sex both with herself and as regards to others (including a fairly direct dismissal of a previous girlfriend's sexual prowess).

Kind of hard to tell from here if this is an issue of delays between reading chapters, actual pacing, or something else, so I'll just keep it in mind for now.

52 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

Page 8: So is sex in this society inherently casual, even outside of religious rituals? Both Savae and Lasila seem fairly confident that they can get some, in some form, in a sort of "I could wander over to the bar and get a drink" sort of way.  They just seem rather unconcerned about it.  Kind of like how sometimes it's nice to paint your nails, but you don't think about it very often and it's not that big of a deal.  

Hmmmm. By and large it's a lot more about public restraint, so yeah, they have the birth control and reproductive health infrastructure (discussed previously) in place that the act of sex is not particularly disdained, though carrying on in public is.

If Savae is coming off that way there's definitely an issue with that, because they definitely could not get the time of day from anyone who isn't a creeper (and thus, they are pretty annoyed by this), in large part because cross-species attraction is neither a given nor particularly common here. (note Savae and Ka/thalan/ia's stuff hammering on the mutual uncanny valley effect with things like facial structure).

With Lasila, yeah, she's fairly confident that she could pick up someone just in general, though less generally confident she'd find someone she'd want to have anything to do with after that, if she had the time and inclination, though she's also attending a formal celebration unto a goddess who really, as stated earlier on, really likes people to celebrate her by boning and discarding that inhibition against public awareness.

1 hour ago, Hobbit said:

"Why Riruna, anyway?" Savae asks. They stretch out on the chaise, looking up at the ceiling.
Seems casual for Savae.  Are the drugs getting to them this fast?

They're just getting comfortable, though if they seem formal as a rule that's probably an error.

As a rule, Savae should be fairly inscrutable, even inside their own head. They mirror a lot of the people they're dealing with, as a matter of course, but they are also quite literally moved by the moons.

Thanks!

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1 hour ago, neongrey said:

she references not going to anything like this event before and the conversation is literally, not subtextually, about having sex, is that not helping?

Oh.  Aha.  So I have one of those brains that tends towards "innocent," which means I either read nothing into the text whatsoever, or overcompensate for my innocence and read so much more into it than the author intended.  Yeah, I just missed this part.  That would have made things a lot clearer.

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

It is, per the discussion earlier in the chapter and when the invitation is extended, fairly emphasized that it's the sort of party where that's expected, and while she's not actively looking for a relationship because she has no time she's been fairly frank in narration about sex both with herself and as regards to others (including a fairly direct dismissal of a previous girlfriend's sexual prowess).

Again, I probably just missed it.  I will say, though, that if I'd realized that the senator was setting Lasila up with his guard, not as dates, but literally as sexual partners, I would have been waaaaaaaaay more creeped out by that scene.  Way.  More.  Though that kind of plays into my next point - in this culture, it seems like people are pretty okay with sleeping around, and sex doesn't seem to have much bonding significance.  So maybe it's not supposed to be super offensive and scary to have some dude come up to you and be like, "I think you should sleep with my guard!  No, really, you'd be a great couple!"

1 hour ago, neongrey said:

If Savae is coming off that way there's definitely an issue with that, because they definitely could not get the time of day from anyone who isn't a creeper (and thus, they are pretty annoyed by this), in large part because cross-species attraction is neither a given nor particularly common here.

It was clear that Savae wasn't going to be finding any sexual partners that they would be comfortable with.  I suppose... hmm.  It came across on the level of, "Well, crap, I think wool is really itchy and there are only wool sweaters in this store!"  But Savae isn't super gushy about their feelings, so I think because I was trying so hard to figure out the sexual norms at play here, I was just hoping for more clues than maybe Savae is going to give me. :)

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On 30/01/2017 at 3:40 PM, Hobbit said:

Again, I probably just missed it.  I will say, though, that if I'd realized that the senator was setting Lasila up with his guard, not as dates, but literally as sexual partners, I would have been waaaaaaaaay more creeped out by that scene.  Way.  More.  Though that kind of plays into my next point - in this culture, it seems like people are pretty okay with sleeping around, and sex doesn't seem to have much bonding significance.  So maybe it's not supposed to be super offensive and scary to have some dude come up to you and be like, "I think you should sleep with my guard!  No, really, you'd be a great couple!"

The request is definitely odd, and definitely over the line, and should be taken that way (and I think the characters' reactions convey that?)-- but he does pretty explicitly say that he expects nothing other than Eshrin being her ride (non-euphemistic), both to Lasila and privately to Eshrin after, in large part because there would be an expectation to the contrary otherwise. And that lingering expectation is about, oh, 90% of why both Lasila and Eshrin are not super thrilled at being set up like that. Even if they, as they agree, don't really want to bang each other.

(yet)

On 30/01/2017 at 3:40 PM, Hobbit said:

It was clear that Savae wasn't going to be finding any sexual partners that they would be comfortable with.  I suppose... hmm.  It came across on the level of, "Well, crap, I think wool is really itchy and there are only wool sweaters in this store!"  But Savae isn't super gushy about their feelings, so I think because I was trying so hard to figure out the sexual norms at play here, I was just hoping for more clues than maybe Savae is going to give me.

Yeah, this is probably about where it needs to be then, even if it's not quite as clueful that way; could use a bit more here maybe, or throughout. The gist is Savae's annoyed that they're not getting any, but they also don't want any of what's on offer (though, and this is a bit more implied than outright, they'd be fine with doing an aelin; this is I think a situation where pansexual is a bit more of a useful descriptor; the functional distinctions between that and bisexuality are pretty fine in humans).

Edited by neongrey
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  • 2 weeks later...

Cool.

Comments.

  • I enjoyed the first section more than the equivalent in the last version of the story. I felt it was more compact, and more effective for that. I was fine with the description and the amount detail on the dress and make-up of the two characters. I think it helps to build anticipation for the event, the amount of effort that goes into the preparation, but summarising from last time, without ‘all’ the dressmaking scenes.

  • I also enjoyed the dialogue that Las and Esh shared. Having her as a qualified litigant at least puts them closer in social standing, if not close, I think it’s a major Improvement overall, and no doubt she has greater confidence in dealing with him as a result than in the previous version, which elevated the exchange, I thought.

  • One thing about Sav’s first section with Ash’s brother-in-law being accompanied by the bodyguard confused me. I can’t remember at this point (WRS?) what Eal’s role in the plot is, when it’s Ash that Sav is (allegedly) serving and it’s Rir that they’re planning to ‘deal with’.

  • Am I right in thinking that Sav had a plan for their glass all along in the previous version, yet in this version, they seem to realise what the bangle is for only at the moment of use. Seemed curious to me. And previously it had bodily fluid from Rir, didn’t it? But I didn’t see that transfer this time, because the glass was Sav’s, wasn’t it?

Good chapter. I think it flows better than the previous coverage of these events (or the equivalent events). The only thing I was confused over was the bangle, and how it fitted in, which I had an understanding of previously, because it was played out how it had some of Rir’s blood on it, if I recall correctly. I don’t see the connection to him this time around.

I enjoyed the tension though, and the intrigue, wheels within wheels, and that it is all building.

<R>

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3 hours ago, Robinski said:

I also enjoyed the dialogue that Las and Esh shared. Having her as a qualified litigant at least puts them closer in social standing, if not close, I think it’s a major Improvement overall, and no doubt she has greater confidence in dealing with him as a result than in the previous version, which elevated the exchange, I thought.

Closer, yeah; if Lasila had a better standing as a lawyer (indeed, as she intends to, by her poising herself to work for listed nobles), there wouldn't be anything particularly abnormal about them going somewhere together even unmasked. Makes Eshrin somewhat less condescending, I think, too.

3 hours ago, Robinski said:

One thing about Sav’s first section with Ash’s brother-in-law being accompanied by the bodyguard confused me. I can’t remember at this point (WRS?) what Eal’s role in the plot is, when it’s Ash that Sav is (allegedly) serving and it’s Rir that they’re planning to ‘deal with’.

A little of that probably, but probably mostly Savae's bad pacing and chapter spacing. Aserahin's angling to take Riruna's Senate seat once he's disposed of. This hasn't come up since, like, chapter two, so it's probably a bit too long there.

3 hours ago, Robinski said:

Am I right in thinking that Sav had a plan for their glass all along in the previous version, yet in this version, they seem to realise what the bangle is for only at the moment of use. Seemed curious to me. And previously it had bodily fluid from Rir, didn’t it? But I didn’t see that transfer this time, because the glass was Sav’s, wasn’t it?

Savae originally was using the bracelets to sneak out a bodily fluid from Riruna, because they were playing nice with Varael's plan originally rather than try to do their own thing, yeah. It's still in because the red herring in Savae's plot is something else (it's the poison earrings); here Savae is doing a very, very unwise thing in using their own glass for what they're handing off to Aserahin.

3 hours ago, Robinski said:

I don’t see the connection to him this time around.

quite simply, Savae is lying, at least by omission, in implying it's Riruna's backwash. There isn't a real connection. :P

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2 hours ago, neongrey said:

Savae is lying

Of course, that's what I missed, I think because I'm not 100% on what Sav is trying to achieve in the long term. Their sabotage of the canal is a pointer of course, but I'm not exactly sure what undermining (are they?) Ase's power grab is gaining them. Maybe I just need to keep reading!

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