KR Orders and Shards - Alignment

[cometaryorbit]

So we know that Kaladin (Windrunner) is bonded to an honorspren and Lift (Edgedancer) is bonded to a cultivationspren, and that all the Nahel-bonding spren exist on a spectrum / continuum from Honor to Cultivation.

Other than the Windrunners and Edgedancers, and the Nightwatcher/Stormfather who are 2 of the 3 Bondsmith spren, do we know from the text or WOB which Orders are "more Cultivation" and which are "more Honor"?

(I have a theory about the Shard - Surge - Order associations being shown on the Double Eye chart, but don't want to post a theory that's disproved by stuff we already know.)

[Pagerunner]

Considering we don't know many of the bonding spren, we're not even able to make very educated guesses. We know of Highspren (Skybreakers), Liespren (Lightweavers), and Inkspren (Elsecallers), but there are still 5 Orders we don't even know the spren name for. I don't think we have enough for a pattern. If I had to guess, I'd say Highspren are close to Honor (they follow a code of law), while Inkspren and Liespren are more of Cultivation (writing and lying both take careful planning to be done effectively).

I'd like to challenge an assumption you've made, though, that the Orders themselves can be of both Shards. My view is that all the Orders are of Honor. (Fair warning, everything below is my view of how the Shards interact with the magics on Roshar. I'm presenting it so you understand why I'm having a bit of a hard time answering your question.) Surgebinding is a magic system, and magic systems belong to Shards. There are three major magic systems in Roshar (Surgebinding, fabrial science, and Voidbinding), and three Shards in the solar system. Each of them has a magic system, and two of them we know require interactions with spren (we don't know anything about how Voidbinding works, yet). Spren themselves can be of any Shard, or a mixture of Shard, but they can still interact with all the magics of the world. (Kind of like in Mistborn, where atium [Ruin] has a unique ability in Allomancy [Preservation].) So:

• Honor has a magic system that requires oaths, actions, and bonding a spren. The kind of spren gives access to various Surges, but that spren can be of Honor, of Cultivation, of Odium (it's theoretically possible to bond an Unmade, and I like the crazy theory that Glys is an Odiumspren that's still allowing Renarin to become a Truthwatcher), of Endowment (based on what we're seeing with Szeth/Nightblood), which will give access to the magic of Honor. Surgebinding was originally done by the Heralds, and they all had splinters of Honor and, probably, a direct connection to Honor that powered their magic. (I learned at a recent signing that the Heralds didn't always need to draw upon Stormlight from gems to power their magic. The Radiants always needed to do so, however.)
• Cultivation has a magic system that requires capturing spren in gemstones and feeding them stormlight, using them to power fabrials. These spren appear to be different, less intelligent spren than those bonded in Surgebinding. But fabrials aren't like some other magic systems we've seen, where there's a mechanical application of the magic system. They're not mechanical Surgebinding; they're a different magic entirely.
• We don't know anything of Odium's magic system. But, I expect it is based on the spren, as well. (I'd might as well carry on a point from another thread, and suggest that this is our missing end-negative magic, and it involves consuming spren.)
• The Parshendi, and Greatshells, have other ways of interacting with spren, that is not a part of any of these Shards' magic systems. (Since they existed before any Shards went to their planet.) It requires a spren bond, and can be with spren of any Shard (and maybe even of Adonalsium, since there are some Adonalsium spren floating around, and the Parshendi existed prior to Shards arriving on Roshar). This 'natural' spren ecosystem probably interplays in a unique way with Surgebinding; it appears when spren bond, they achieve intelligence, and the bonds formed through the magic of Surgebinding may be stronger than the natural bonds that are formed by Roshar's native inhabitants. (We are their broth, their meat is men, or however the line went.)
• Oh, and there's also the Nightwatcher, which I suspect isn't a magic system, but direct alterations to the spiritweb. But more ways for magic in Stormlight.

Roshar has Brandon's most complicated magic arrangement, by far, and there's a lot we don't understand, but there are a lot of different interactions at play with the spren, some of which occurred even before the Shards arrived on the planet. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot wrong with my explanation, but the fact that each Order needs to take Oaths leads me to believe they're all of Honor because of the kind of interaction with spren, even though their individual spren come from various sources. The Bondsmiths are a god example; they probably have spren of both Shards, so which Shard is the Order of? Easy to answer, if they're all of Honor; hard to answer, if the Orders, not just the spren, are on a spectrum.

I don't think it would change what you're trying to ask, since you're getting at "which spren are of which Shard." So, I'm more just responding to how you associated the Orders with Shards, and I just kept going and ran with it since you accidentally opened the door to something that got deep fast. I hope the larger context of spren and magic systems can give you some insight into how spren align with Shards.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Considering we don't know many of the bonding spren, we're not even able to make very educated guesses. We know of Highspren (Skybreakers), Liespren (Lightweavers), and Inkspren (Elsecallers), but there are still 5 Orders we don't even know the spren name for. I don't think we have enough for a pattern.

Hmm, OK, so probably nothing to outright contradict my theory (which is that the Surges and Double Eye/Order chart show which spren are of which Shard).

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

I'd like to challenge an assumption you've made, though, that the Orders themselves can be of both Shards. My view is that all the Orders are of Honor.

Perhaps I was oversimplifying. Surgebinding itself might be of Honor only.

Quote

 Surgebinding is a magic system, and magic systems belong to Shards. There are three major magic systems in Roshar (Surgebinding, fabrial science, and Voidbinding), and three Shards in the solar system. Each of them has a magic system,

Possible, but IMO it's quite likely more complex than that. My own very tentative view is that Fabrial Science is 'of' Adonalsium and pre-Shattering, and Surgebinding is 'of' Honor plus Cultivation (with Honor's Intent defining the system but Cultivation primarily providing the Investiture). Voidbinding might be purely of Odium or some weird interaction-formed system (the term 'binding' might suggest an Honor component).

I think it's also quite possible that Fabrial Science and fauna/Parshendi spren binding are really 2 parts of one magic system.

 

[Oversleep]

Surgebinding is a mix of H&C.

I think an easy way to identify which Orders are more of given side is to look at the Heralds. Honor is male, Cultivation is female. There are 5 male Heralds and 5 female. Top five (WIndrunners, Skybreakers, Willshapers, Stonewards, Bondsmiths) are more aligned with Honor and down five (Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers) are more aligned with Cultivation. (also take a look at their attributes)

[Erandeni]

7 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Surgebinding is a mix of H&C.

I think an easy way to identify which Orders are more of given side is to look at the Heralds. Honor is male, Cultivation is female. There are 5 male Heralds and 5 female. Top five (WIndrunners, Skybreakers, Willshapers, Stonewards, Bondsmiths) are more aligned with Honor and down five (Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers, Elsecallers) are more aligned with Cultivation. (also take a look at their attributes)

Even in that five Orders of Honor/Cultivation I think that the Orders with the surge of Adhesion are the closest to Honor, and the ones with the surge of Progression are the closest to Cultivation, because of the spren they bond and the Intent of the Shard.

Between Bondsmiths and Windrunners I can´t decide wich one is the closest to Honor, I would says Windrunners because they bond with honorspren and their patron was the king of herald,wich I think is the closest herald to Honor, but Bondsmiths, at least the one we know, bonds with the Cognitive Shadow of Honor, so I don´t know.

In the Cultivation part of the chart, I would says that Edgedancers are the closest to Cultivation, because Truthwatchers seems to bond normal spren but we don´t know which spren they bond.

[Jondesu]

On 1/14/2017 at 1:49 PM, Idealistic Mistborn said:

Bondsmiths, at least the one we know, bonds with the Cognitive Shadow of Honor, so I don´t know.

They didn't previously, though, since Honor (or Tanavast's) Cognitive Shadow didn't merge with the Rider of the Storms (the Stormfather) until after Honor's splintering, and thus after the last of the Bondsmiths died, most likely, or broke their oaths, since that was after the Recreance.