Sovereign's Identity (Secret History Spoilers)

[theuntaintedchild]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Sovereign is Kelsier back from the dead? My own personal theory is that sovereign is Spook. I think Spook was studying Hemalurgy with Kelsier and they figured out how to use hemalurgy to contain Kelsier's identity in a spike. I believe that The Spike Formerly Known as Kelsier is the one in Spook's eye. The reason Sovereign's arms were covered in scars is because we are seeing through the eyes of Kelsier and that is how he views himself. This theory is entirely based on the idea that there is precedence for people living a long time but very little for people coming back from death in phsyical form. Just a pet theory of mine. Help me out are there holes in this theory? Can I make is stronger somehow?

[Khyrindor]

Well, it's widely accepted as Kelsier because Secret History is supposed to spoil the reveal in Bands of Mourning that Kelsier is alive, according to Brandon IIRC. If you haven't read Secret History:

Kelsier is shown to have survived by tricking Preservation into putting him in the Well of Ascension. When Ruin was freed, so was Kelsier. At the end, Kelsier asks Sazed if it's possible to go back into his body, but Sazed lies and says no, or basically refuses to do so. Kelsier has the option to move to the beyond with Vin and Elend, but decides not to. At the very end, Kelsier is seen talking to Spook about Hemalurgy, and the desire to learn more about the Cosmere. 

So, I think the running theory is that there is somehow a way to use Hemalurgy to "staple" your Cognitive Reflection back into a body. I do like your thought that Spook is that body, but I'm not sure if I agree or not. I don't think Kelsier is quite callous enough to completely inhabit a friend, especially one who practically worships him. I personally think that Kelsiers bones were preserved, and they managed to find a way to put Kelsier back in them with Hemalurgy. We know from Bands of Mourning that Spook is very open to Hemalurgic experimentation, and that he himself has lived over a hundred years before he "stepped down" from rule (Kelsier also hasn't been seen for a while). My theory is that Spook and Kelsier are acting as agents of some kind, maybe with a team (Kelsier likes teams) on nearby worlds, getting into mischief and running heists.

All this makes me think that each series is really just introducing a few characters that will later be integral to the Cosmere, sort of like Marvel movies introducing their characters before they meet each other. Elantris had Raoden, and Emperor's Soul had Shai (whom Brandon has said we'll see more of). Mistborn had Sazed, Spook, and Kelsier. Warbreaker had Vasher and Nightblood. Maybe Stormlight Archive's just introducing Jasnah or maybe Dalinar as the heroes of the future, and these books are all just origin stories... But that's a rabbit hole for a different topic.

[Kingsdaughter613]

It can't be Spook as he was elsewhere. It's definitely Kell at this point; Brandon has said too many other things - like Kelsier having an important role in the next two trilogies- for it too really be anyone else. He's also confirmed it by not contradicting or adding caveats to the assumption as opposed, say, to Taln (who Brandon refers to as 'the man who calls himself Taln.') We also do have prior examples, just not using Hemalurgy. The Returned and the Heralds and, to an extent, Tanavast.

So what we are left with is how Kell has done what he's done. Is he using his old body? Is he possessing someone? Did he find another way entirely? And so on.

[StormyQueen]

Yeah, to quote a great movie, "It just so happens that [Kelsier] here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive." (At least in the time of SH, what is he now? Well, that is the million dollar question). Sure, there is a possibility that Kelsier is using the body of Spook in some form of hemelurgic possession, but I think, as other people have said, it most definatley Kelsier, and I don't think IF it was Spook's body that there would be much left of Spook left.

Edited January 13, 2017 by CalypsoDreaming

[Kingsdaughter613]

We actually know it can't be Spook's body; Kell was in the South ten years after the Catecande. Spook would be active in the north for another ninety years. The logistics make it just about impossible.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[nervousnerd]

On Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 6:07 PM, theuntaintedchild said:

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Sovereign is Kelsier back from the dead? My own personal theory is that sovereign is Spook. I think Spook was studying Hemalurgy with Kelsier and they figured out how to use hemalurgy to contain Kelsier's identity in a spike. I believe that The Spike Formerly Known as Kelsier is the one in Spook's eye. The reason Sovereign's arms were covered in scars is because we are seeing through the eyes of Kelsier and that is how he views himself. This theory is entirely based on the idea that there is precedence for people living a long time but very little for people coming back from death in phsyical form. Just a pet theory of mine. Help me out are there holes in this theory? Can I make is stronger somehow?

I'm not really sure I understand why his identity would be in the spike though. Do you mean that Spook is going around with Kelsier's identity instead of his own?

I don't think many people think Kelsier came back in his own body. That was sort of digested. I think most people who believe it is Kelsier believe that he and Spook spiked his soul into a new body (that could have been but is unlikely to have been Spook) and that this new body essentially becomes Kelsier. The reappearance of the scars is then explained by Kelsier's spiritweb changing the body to appear how he believes himself to look (like Kaladin's slave brand).

Edited January 22, 2017 by nervousnerd

[theuntaintedchild]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:30 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It can't be Spook as he was elsewhere. It's definitely Kell at this point; Brandon has said too many other things - like Kelsier having an important role in the next two trilogies- for it too really be anyone else. He's also confirmed it by not contradicting or adding caveats to the assumption as opposed, say, to Taln (who Brandon refers to as 'the man who calls himself Taln.') We also do have prior examples, just not using Hemalurgy. The Returned and the Heralds and, to an extent, Tanavast.

So what we are left with is how Kell has done what he's done. Is he using his old body? Is he possessing someone? Did he find another way entirely? And so on.

That's a really good point about The Returned and the Heralds.

 

[theuntaintedchild]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 7:18 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

We actually know it can't be Spook's body; Kell was in the South ten years after the Catecande. Spook would be active in the north for another ninety years. The logistics make it just about impossible.

Could Spook not have been active both in the North and the South? We don't have any evidence to support the fact that Spook was always in the North. I definitely hope you're right though. I mean I really like my idea and everything but it's always nice to actually be more clear on a topic like this.

 

[theuntaintedchild]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 9:07 PM, nervousnerd said:

I'm not really sure I understand why his identity would be in the spike though. Do you mean that Spook is going around with Kelsier's identity instead of his own?

I don't think many people think Kelsier came back in his own body. That was sort of digested. I think most people who believe it is Kelsier believe that he and Spook spiked his soul into a new body (that could have been but is unlikely to have been Spook) and that this new body essentially becomes Kelsier. The reappearance of the scars is then explained by Kelsier's spiritweb changing the body to appear how he believes himself to look (like Kaladin's slave brand).

I was thinking one of the metals is capable of storing identity through Feruchemy. I can't remember which one. If the spike was made of that metal it could store Kelsier's identity.

 

[nervousnerd]

No no, you are right about that. Aluminum stores identity in feruchemy. If you are able to spike yourself with that ability you can therefore store and change identities with it.

I will admit that it confuses me how much tapping that identity actually makes you become that person and what happens to your sense of self. That is more what I was getting at. If Spook gave up his own to use Kelsier's identity, would that not essentially be the same as Kelsier returning from the grave?

I am also saying that I think more than that could have happened if they figured out how to contain more than just identity in a spike. They were likely trying to attach Kelsier's entire cognitive and spiritual self to a new physical body.

[Thunder_93]

For the last 2 posts: I'm not sure if you really understand how the storing Identity works.

Of course, it's not all 100% clear yet, but Bands of Mourning gave us a pretty good idea about it: (so, BoM spoilers ahead)

 

A Feruchemist can store all his identity into a Metalmind, and while he does so, store any other Metalmind with the matching attribute.

If he does so, said second Metalmind will be an unsealed Metalmind. This means, everyone with the right feruchemical ability can use the Metalmind.

That's why Wayne could use the gold-Metalmind he found, as it was unsealed. And that's also as the Bands of Mourning themself work, as when the "powers to be Allomancer / Feruchemist" were stored, the person stored all his identity -> everyone could use it.

 

I honestly don't think feruchemical Aluminium includes storing an actual personality into a metalmind

[nervousnerd]

Hmm, I guess I was thinking about an unkeyed aluminum metalmind then. I suppose that might be impossible if you have to store your identity to make it.

[CosmereAvair]

I don't think the spike would contain Kell, because Hemolurgy always loses a bit of what it is transferring like a leaky pipe. Kell and spook wouldn't do that then because some aspects of Kell would be lost.

[theuntaintedchild]

5 minutes ago, CosmereAvair said:

I don't think the spike would contain Kell, because Hemolurgy always loses a bit of what it is transferring like a leaky pipe. Kell and spook wouldn't do that then because some aspects of Kell would be lost.

I hadn't thought about that outcome.

 

[theuntaintedchild]

1 hour ago, Thunder_93 said:

For the last 2 posts: I'm not sure if you really understand how the storing Identity works.

Of course, it's not all 100% clear yet, but Bands of Mourning gave us a pretty good idea about it: (so, BoM spoilers ahead)

 

A Feruchemist can store all his identity into a Metalmind, and while he does so, store any other Metalmind with the matching attribute.

If he does so, said second Metalmind will be an unsealed Metalmind. This means, everyone with the right feruchemical ability can use the Metalmind.

That's why Wayne could use the gold-Metalmind he found, as it was unsealed. And that's also as the Bands of Mourning themself work, as when the "powers to be Allomancer / Feruchemist" were stored, the person stored all his identity -> everyone could use it.

 

I honestly don't think feruchemical Aluminium includes storing an actual personality into a metalmind

It is still a bit hazy for me. Like I do understand how it worked in BoM. I'm just curious how far it could be stretched. I must say I am liking the idea more and more of them spiking Kelsier into someone else's body rather than Spook.

 

[Andy92]

I remember there was a kandra that used Kelsier's bones after he died to get the attention of some guards in Luthadel during the events of the original trilogy. I wonder if it's possible that a kandra could have made a body using Kelsier's bones, then it was somehow spiked to give Kelsier sentience back in his old body that had been recreated by a kandra...not sure if that's possible, but Kelsier and Spook seem to have discovered something about Hemulurgy that wasn't well known. 

[nervousnerd]

I believe TenSoon has stated that he still has Kelsier's bones but I could be wrong. I also believe that hemalurgy is more about contact with the blood so I don't know that bones would really be very helpful.

I suppose there may be another way a spike might work though. If spikes allow for Ruin to control people directly then there may be a way to use that to sort of possess a person. I am aware that Ruin has more power than a dead Kelsier but I'm just spitballing here.

[Gizmosowner]

4 hours ago, Andy92 said:

I remember there was a kandra that used Kelsier's bones after he died to get the attention of some guards in Luthadel during the events of the original trilogy. I wonder if it's possible that a kandra could have made a body using Kelsier's bones, then it was somehow spiked to give Kelsier sentience back in his old body that had been recreated by a kandra...not sure if that's possible, but Kelsier and Spook seem to have discovered something about Hemulurgy that wasn't well known. 

You mean ore seur? Ten Soon killed him and we have just seen ten soon I doubt it that he was somehow spiked with kelsiers identity. I know kandra have good memory so Ten Soon might be able to recreate kelsiers body if he got ahold of his bone but at this point it's unlikely because I know they survived the catacendre but I'm not sure who has them.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Ten Soon should have them; he had them last...

[Andy92]

I thought TenSoon was the one that ended up with them too (been a while since I read through The Hero of Ages though). If any kandra could recreate a decently accurate version of Kelsier, I'd say it's him. 

I don't really know enough about Cognitive Shadows to understand how Kelsier and Spook managed to pull Kelsier from the Cognitive Realm back into the Physical Realm, but I do think it's possible a kandra could've had a hand in giving Kelsier a body to house his spirit in.

Or not...Sanderson comes up with a lot of crazy ideas. 

[theuntaintedchild]

I really love the directions this post is going in. I had not considered that a Kandra with access to Kelsier's bones could make a perfect body for Kelsier to squat in. Maybe this new Hemalurgic discovery works similar to Awakening on nalthis in the fact that the closer a vessel is to it's cognitive shadow makes it easier to hop inside. Like how awakening is easier if it's a human shaped object.

[Spoolofwhool]

TenSoon had Kelsier's bones at the end of HoA and used them to appear as him for a short time then. 

[Itchy Savant]

I love the idea of a Kanda housing kels cognitive shadow.  Perhaps he has the blessing of kelsier instead of another bleswing?

But in all seriousness would Kanda not need the original bones if he was blessed by a spike that staples Kell into it? The spurtiual identity could probably form the body with any bones.

Could be related to how

bleeder was able to use allomantic/feruchemic spikes

[Kingsdaughter613]

Once we are going down that route, why a Kandra? Wouldn't a Mistwraith be preferable?

[Itchy Savant]

Well I guess that's what I meant, the blessing would turn him into a Kanda,  but because it's an identity blessing it would just staple Kell into an effectively immortal body