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01/09/16 - Waning, ch.8 (revised) and Chapter 9


neongrey

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All right, here we have the revisions to chapter 8, which should now be far less 'Savae, will you please exposit to me?" "Why yes, yes I will." There's some info I will need to go and backpin in earlier and chapter positions might benefit from some jiggling but in isolation I think this chapter's overall a lot better. Please note Savae's recap especially because it's got info that will be inserted earlier.

Chapter 9 is a return to and sendoff for Lasila's family drama. I know you all love that. Features more reused material than usual, but I did like these scenes originally. This remains the last we physically see of Varinen in this book.

We're syncing up to the party stuff now and despite being 4 chapters higher in count we're only about 3000 words ahead; the old version did the party in 4; I'm hoping to do it in 3 but we'll see how it goes. If I can end the party by around word 40k (so another 12k words), I'll be happy. There's a ton of stuff going on here and this is the big finish for the first major section of the book so this can take a bit of space. Time to start thinking of annoying questions like where this is at structurally (especially relative to before), but I won't actually be asking anyone that until the upcoming dust has settled.

Previously for Savae: Savae has been directed by someone in their government to work with the aelin crime lord Varael Ashana. Ashana seems to be using their cooperation in furtherance of some personal scheme; he asks Savae to obtain some material from one Senator Riruna, so that Ashana can get him out of the way and out of the Senate. Meanwhile, Savae's religious responsibilities don't let up, and they find themself in the care of a young aelin who claims to have killed the goddess Alia, and is clearly touched by the moon-goddess...

Previously for Lasila: Lasila Vahendra recently met with her client's fiance's lawyer to hammer out details for the marriage contract. After concluding business, he sort of dragoons her and his guard for that day into attending the upcoming celebration of Alia's return together. No one is happy with this.

Last time: Eshrin is disgruntled at Senator Melqueth
This time: Savae is disgruntled at Kathalania. Lasila is disgruntled at her brother.
Next time: You guys *really missed* mid-chapter POV shifts, right?

Edited by neongrey
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Ch 8 revisions: This reads a lot cleaner this time, though not sure whether that's because I know what to expect. I didn't stumble over any sentences this time, and the relationship between Savae and Kathalania is better.

Ch 9:

pg 1: "She busies herself by going over a book on arcanistry law, and finds nothing of pertinence to her needs. Not even anything she can extrapolate from."
--Is this in reference to learning magic, or something else? Unclear what her "needs" are.

pg 1: "It's not even wanting to stave off his departure, just not even wanting to look at his face."
--awkward

pg 1: "Her hands flex, and she has to force them out of fists. / This house was never meant to contain a mere two people..."
--The dissonance between these sections are jarring. I think it's meant to be, showing what things used to be like, but comes across more as if Lasila's thinking well of her brother, but her body is angry at him.

pg 2: "You haven't had time to reach the walls that I have."
--Unsure what walls. Political? job-wise?

pg 2: "I was hand-chosen by a senator..."
--This gives a better side to his argument than before. I can see his point now.

pg 2, end: "I don't want our last conversations before I go to be arguments."
--He said this exact phrase at the top of the page

pg 3: "we could end the war, you know? "
--I still don't know enough about the war to know if this is an accurate statement or what it means.

pg 3: "But Varinen drops to one knee, and unsheathes the sword..."
--This is a good section, if a bit melodramatic. But it does fit with Varinen's personality, so I think it works.

pg 3: "I always hated when you called me Lissa."
--this and the response are good pieces of character building.

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Overall

I really like the rewrites, especially with Lasila and her brother. Now I really see their relationship, and the character traits in Lasila you often mentioned in crit responses, but I never saw come out of text. A bit of the Savae scene still confused me, but very minor. Overall this cleaned up really well.

 

As I go

- Ch8: love the line about 'commissioning a human'

- I'm enjoying the playing with clay and debating assassination all the same time

- I'm still a little lost in those last few paragraphs of chapter 8, but that might be WRS more than anything else

- Ch9: ah, the grounding in the childhood relationships makes me care a lot more about the interaction between these two. Yes, and now the him leaving part actually resonates

- that first page two interlude is perfect. Lasila as a character really comes through. I can see her juvenile selfishness along with her hurt, and for the first time have an actual understanding of the brother

running back and forth the while time did you mean 'whole' time? You've also got an 'fo' instead of an 'of' two lines up

- page three: yes, that is quite melodramatic. I stumbled on that part

- it ends on a very sweet note

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Chapter 8

- The interaction between Savae and Kathalania is much improved - it feels more petty and passive-aggressive then outright abusive.  

Chapter 9

- I also like the rising stakes for Lasila as she believes her brother is never coming back. One possible issue - this may be Weekly Reader Syndrome - but I couldn't remember if this was addressed in earlier chapter, or if it was shuffled to the side too much. Her relationship with her brother might need to be a bigger deal. As it stands, I remember a couple fleeting scenes with him but not enough to hint at the emotional stakes.

- That said, I do like their interaction throughout this scene.

- And I particularly like the last line of the chapter. 

 

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On 09/01/2017 at 3:53 PM, Mandamon said:

Ch 9:

pg 1: "She busies herself by going over a book on arcanistry law, and finds nothing of pertinence to her needs. Not even anything she can extrapolate from."
--Is this in reference to learning magic, or something else? Unclear what her "needs" are.

This is an extremely direct follow-up to some stuff earlier, it just was put around here in like november, I am not gonna sweat it.

Quote

pg 2: "I was hand-chosen by a senator..."
--This gives a better side to his argument than before. I can see his point now.

ironically except for some adjustments to match contextual changes, Varinen's lines are nearly identical to the original version's (that's actually how I wrote this one), so it's a little funny to see how the changed context does effect things.

Quote

pg 2, end: "I don't want our last conversations before I go to be arguments."
--He said this exact phrase at the top of the page

He is directly quoting Lasila, yes, only adding 'before I go', yes.

Quote

pg 3: "we could end the war, you know? "
--I still don't know enough about the war to know if this is an accurate statement or what it means.

Do you feel that Varinen believes what he is saying? If no, why not?

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

- I'm still a little lost in those last few paragraphs of chapter 8, but that might be WRS more than anything else

Yeah, and this sort of thing is where I'm sort of looking at the arrangement of the early chapters, since it's been a while since we've dealt with this. Either way I think the issue here is mostly due to this not having come up much lately, and whether that's a spacing issue or 'it's been literally months' can be shaken out when I look at the earlier stuff next. It needs some spot mods anyway.

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

running back and forth the while time did you mean 'whole' time? You've also got an 'fo' instead of an 'of' two lines up

yeah, thanks.

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page three: yes, that is quite melodramatic. I stumbled on that part

This, I'm not gonna sweat too hard if it happens on that bit, because that's a fairly reasonable reaction to it. 

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

and for the first time have an actual understanding of the brother

This is always tricky to have shine through, because he gets exactly three scenes, she's mad at the whole  time, and doesn't actually care about him as a person (both for bad reasons and because he's really in that awkward brother-dad space in her mind which for everyone i think is more of a symbol than a person), so, good he still gets through her edges, lol.

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

- it ends on a very sweet note

ngl i can directly trace these lines to people calling her lissa in crit even when he's the only one who ever calls her that lololol

10 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- I also like the rising stakes for Lasila as she believes her brother is never coming back. One possible issue - this may be Weekly Reader Syndrome - but I couldn't remember if this was addressed in earlier chapter, or if it was shuffled to the side too much. Her relationship with her brother might need to be a bigger deal. As it stands, I remember a couple fleeting scenes with him but not enough to hint at the emotional stakes.

Pretty much every single interaction they have is largely focused around her being really bent out of shape about this, despite him not actually being that big a part of her life. I'm not gonna worry about this too much. Especially since she does not, so much, care to narrate the exact reasons she's objecting. Which are left as an exercise for the reader to determine.

Thanks, everyone!

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Hiya, Neongrey!

Mm, first off with the revisions to chapter eight. Most of it reads the same as last time. I'd say the most prominent change is how much kinder Savae comes off as. By that, I mean that they're still not kind, but a lot less outright mean.

Kathalania's lines are also much easier to understand this time around, and she is noticeably less timid when she's upset. The idea that the design wasn't meant to be jewelry was outright stated this time, which replaced confusion with a question of what the design actually was. More intriguing.

Chapter nine was nice and bittersweet. I felt a great well of pity when I reached the small time skip, and had a small smile by the end. I'd say the sorrow and pity outweigh the hope and joy. More bitter than sweet. Plus marks there if that's the intentional setup.

Drawing attention to the melodrama and then knowingly continuing off of it definitely stirs up more pity than relief. The implication is that she desperately doesn't want things to end in an argument, so she's keeping true to her word—even though she immediately stumbled after she brought it up the first time.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Comments. Clearly, I skipped the first version, so hopefully this perspective is slightly different from the other who read the original.

Chapter 8

I enjoy the conflict in this chapter. I like to see Kath getting a sound tongue-lashing, because she deserves it for her gross presumption! Also, it’s a nicely delivered plot driver, to throw Sav a curveball. They’re at their best as a character, I think, when they are angry.

Another satisfying aspect is that the plot progresses, even if a small amount, and we see just a bit more of the picture, which is good.

I did find it strange that Sav was willing to reveal so much of the plan to Kath, especially when they go on to see she has nothing to do with it. That did not seem sensible, given that Kath has only just arrived. It smacks of poor judgement, which is why I didn’t think it was the sort of thing Sav would do, hence it starts to feel a bit maid-and-butler when I analyse it.

<R>

 

[Chp.9 comments to follow in edit.]

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2 hours ago, Robinski said:

It smacks of poor judgement, which is why I didn’t think it was the sort of thing Sav would do, hence it starts to feel a bit maid-and-butler when I analyse it.

This isn't pursuant to this scene so much in particular and I think I'm gonna hold off on going too far in depth on this sort of thing re messaging with Savae because I'll want to go over it when I finish (probably) 12 and go back for cleanup on the first part, but do you mind going off the top of your head what you felt presented Savae as having good judgement? They are a character who does stupid things because they figure they can deal with any consequences; their first scene is them relentlessly mouthing off to a mob boss (who was just beating someone half to death with his bare hands); that's about where their judgement is supposed to come off in general. You're not the only one who's sort of read Savae as being far more sensible than they actually are. They're smart, they're skilled, but they act on impulse a lot and make some terrible decisions as a result. If they're seeming otherwise, that's something that I'll need to deal with on rework.

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7 hours ago, neongrey said:

but do you mind going off the top of your head what you felt presented Savae as having good judgement?

My impression of them is that they are competent, for various reasons. (1) They are a spy / agent in a foreign country and have not been caught and executed - this makes me think half-decent spy; (2) They have gone into the presence of a vicious mob boss and sparred with him (verbally) without being executed, therefore clearly they have his 'trust' and or respect (to some degree), so he seems to think they are competent (probably?); (3) They have done jewellery stuff competently and attracts high-profile customers, so they respect their ability as a jeweller - so they must have good judgement professionally and in business (or am I stretching now?)

7 hours ago, neongrey said:

You're not the only one who's sort of read Savae as being far more sensible than they actually are

Mmm, I'm not sure we've seen them suffer as a result of any of the decisions they've made.

I don't feel I've seen them do anything that was especially impulsive. They were already in the boss's company, the Lady came to them, as did Kath.

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Comments on Chapter 9.

Err, my only comment – that was, give or take some minor refinement, pretty much perfect for me. Lovely notes of sibling tension, and yet interspersed with obvious if unspoken respect and, although neither might be willing to admit it or even recognise it, love.

<R>

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4 hours ago, Robinski said:

My impression of them is that they are competent, for various reasons.

Ah, so I think here the issue is conflating competence and good judgement. Savae is absolutely competent, and nothing bad that happens to them is going to be because they're incompetent, it's that despite that they make bad decisions, and had a bad habit of antagonizing people who they really shouldn't.

Thanks, this'll be helpful to keep in mind when I go back here.

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

Mmm, I'm not sure we've seen them suffer as a result of any of the decisions they've made.

I mean, Savae's had, at this point in the story, two POV chapters and presence in a third. We haven't seen the result of any decisions they've made, In their fourth chapter where they get POV, (where third and fourth are both half-chapters worth of POV or so), they hit consequence country. Savae's pacing is badly out, and that's one of the things I'm looking at when I go back on them, but here I'm wondering in terms of storyline development, how rapid a pace your expectation is set at, because I do need to gauge accordingly.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Err, my only comment – that was, give or take some minor refinement, pretty much perfect for me. Lovely notes of sibling tension, and yet interspersed with obvious if unspoken respect and, although neither might be willing to admit it or even recognise it, love.

Oh, good, I'm glad this one works mostly as-is; I do have a lot of feelings about this one. Varinen definitely does love his sister, more than he should. And Lasila does love him, if not enough. But it's complicated, of course. hehe.

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