Watchcry Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) A quick question: If some orders are not battle-oriented, what purpose did they serve during desolations? I suppose the same question goes for their heralds: How did all of the non battle-oriented heralds survive the last desolation? Thanks Edited December 30, 2016 by ANRILU Misspelled word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezrien Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Well, Edgedancers and Truthwatchers had healing powers (surge of Progression), so they could have been magical medics. A lot of the surges might also be useful in construction projects, so Radiants could have helped build fortifications and infrastructure. Lightweaving could be used for non-combat functions like espionage (assuming Voidbringers are susceptible to that). And the Bondsmiths, since there were only three of them, probably did more leadership/strategy/diplomacy than fighting. Oh, and Transformation (Elsecallers and Lightweavers) would be used the same way soulcasting is used currently: to maintain the food supply when agriculture fails. The teleporters (Elsecallers and... Willshapers?) could have been messengers and couriers, zipping across Roshar in the blink of an eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted December 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 It just seems to me they would serve a deeper purpose than chief of transportation or quartermaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 There's also some indication that the Lightweavers helped with morale issues too. Quote "Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault." This makes sense based on Shallan's interactions with the deserters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 3 hours ago, ANRILU said: It just seems to me they would serve a deeper purpose than chief of transportation or quartermaster Logistics are really important in warfare. And Roshar was very technologically primitive back then; the Heralds often had to teach humanity how to make bronze. So the only way to get decent logistics would have been magic. IMO the roles would have been something like this: Windrunners - leaders and defensive warriors, protecting the refuges of non-Radiant humanity Skybreakers - soldiers and military police Dustbringers - primary offensive force Edgedancers - combat medics Truthwatchers - information/intelligence and medical Lightweavers - logistics & morale Elsecallers - logistics & transportation, Spren-realm diplomats Willshapers - transportation Stonewards - defensive warriors Bondsmiths - uniting humanity against the threat 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted December 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 I understand that logistics are important in warfare. I'm military by profession and definitely understand that. I still feel that the heralds themselves, armed with honorblades, would have used them in the struggle rather than administer and direct the logistics part of things whilst not using them. But if indeed they were not fighters then so be it. I'm sure we'll soon learn they're specific duties and responsibilities and obviously my inquiry will be answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 1 hour ago, ANRILU said: I understand that logistics are important in warfare. I'm military by profession and definitely understand that. I still feel that the heralds themselves, armed with honorblades, would have used them in the struggle rather than administer and direct the logistics part of things whilst not using them. But if indeed they were not fighters then so be it. I'm sure we'll soon learn they're specific duties and responsibilities and obviously my inquiry will be answered. Oh, chances are that all ten of the Heralds fought in the actual Desolation once they had done preparing the people. The prelude to WoK indicates that fairly strongly. My opinion is that all ten of the Heralds were of a strength fairly beyond what we've seen so far, and even without offensive surgebindings were on the level of one-man armies. As even said in an in-Roshar book, Ishar, the patron of Bondsmith, possessing the powers of Tension and Adhesion, threatened to destroy the KRs entirely if they didn't follow his regulations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted December 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Great answer. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 20 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: even without offensive surgebindings were on the level of one-man armies. As even said in an in-Roshar book, Ishar, the patron of Bondsmith, possessing the powers of Tension and Adhesion, threatened to destroy the KRs entirely if they didn't follow his regulations. Yeah, that's not the most combat-centric power set. So clearly he had some way to beat Windrunners, Skybreakers, or Dustbringers in a fight. In the Powers of the Heralds threads, it's been suggested that they could draw near-infinite Stormlight straight from Honor to get incredible physical abilities (Mistborn Original Trilogy spoilers) Spoiler like Vin burning the mists in HOA: "limitless pewter" allows her to totally ignore massive injuries If they were hyper-Invested, things like Lashings wouldn't work against them; they might even be able to block Shardblades and Voidbringer magical attacks like Stormform lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted December 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 If that's the case, how did they die by the hands of voidbringers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 29 minutes ago, ANRILU said: If that's the case, how did they die by the hands of voidbringers? Physical damage? In any case, hyper-invested would probably at best make someone resistance to a high degree, not completed proof to investiture-based attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 14 hours ago, ANRILU said: If that's the case, how did they die by the hands of voidbringers? IIRC Kalak remembers being killed by Thunderclasts in previous desolations. So physical damage will probably do it, unless Thunderclasts posess some other magical abilities than animating rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezrien Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, ANRILU said: If that's the case, how did they die by the hands of voidbringers? The Heralds probably weren't quite as powerful as Spoiler Vin with the mists in HoA. That was Vin in the process of becoming a shardholder; not just drawing power from preservation, but sucking up the entire shard. I bet the Heralds did have some limits to their power, if only to make them more interesting. (Brandon's 2nd Law) Edited December 31, 2016 by Belzedar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, Belzedar said: The Heralds probably weren't quite as powerful as Vin with the mists in HoA. Oh, yes, I just meant that the process and effects were similar (direct Shardic power draw for physical improvements). I do think they were far more powerful than any non-Shard we've seen except possibly the Lord Ruler, (Mistborn Original Trilogy spoilers) Spoiler and that only because of his "cheating" Compounding powers. I don't think a Lerasium Mistborn's allomantic Pewter would even come close. On 12/30/2016 at 11:30 PM, Spoolofwhool said: Physical damage? In any case, hyper-invested would probably at best make someone resistance to a high degree, not completed proof to investiture-based attacks. Yeah, massive physical obliteration - IIRC a thunderclast's hand is as big as a person and made of stone, so probably weighs something like half a ton or a ton. Getting hit with that propelled by probably supernatural strength... that's pretty extreme. If normal Pewter burning doubles your strength, maybe it doubles the impacts you can take too... but I don't think even 20x normal resilience would protect you from that. So I think the Heralds could be well beyond even a Lerasium-powered Pewter burner and still be killed by thunderclast fists (or chasmfiend bites or other giant Roshar monsters). And they wouldn't be truly invulnerable to "Investiture" attacks since they wouldn't have infinite Investiture. But they might as well be to your average Mistborn or Knight Radiant. Nightblood should still work though. Edited January 1, 2017 by cometaryorbit spoilers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 @Belzedar, careful with the spoilers. This is the Stormlight subforum, so all spoilers for other book series have to be hidden with spoiler tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezrien Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Sorry. Fixed! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 @cometaryorbit Watch the Mistborn spoilers. You're revealing some rather significant plot points. Make sure to hide those in the quotes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 On December 30, 2016 at 6:51 PM, ANRILU said: I still feel that the heralds themselves, armed with honorblades, would have used them in the struggle rather than administer and direct the logistics part of things whilst not using them. But if indeed they were not fighters then so be it. I agree with this sentiment, and as Spool says, they probably did join the battle. Just like Elhokar, our own medieval kings went on the campaign and joined the fight. As "Honor's Chosen Warriors," I have no doubt that the Heralds would do the same. On the other side of that argument, any/all of the KR Orders that joined the fight have a logistical aspect they need to deal with, sometimes several. Sorry, tangent. On to how I see the Orders in a Desolation (because that's the original question) Windrunners - They, or their squires, could be involved with leading and/or directing the non-Radiant military forces. As 2 of their Ideals deal with protecting, I almost feel like a fair portion of them would be the last line of defense, rather than in the fray. That said, the powers and mobility displayed by Szeth and Kaladin would be a great asset. Drawing projectiles away from less armored individuals, using adhesion to slow/stop advances, lashing boulders at the enemy, maybe even launching a Thunderclast away if enough Windrunners lash together. Skybreakers - Military Police. With lashings to fly and the Division Surge to rain destruction from the sky, they could function like planes on a bombing run. And if any are near Szeth's skill with a Shardblade, they could drop into the fray like paratroopers and make holes in the enemy lines. Dustbringers - While they lack the aerial capacity that Skybreakers have, they can use slicking to quickly navigate the battlefield and blast the enemy with destruction and fire, and just as quickly get out of harms way. Edgedancers - Field medics. As Lift's skill with slicking has shown, her Order has skill at getting to places they need to be, and quickly. Reduce friction with the air and you can reach an injured ally much faster than a non-enhanced doctor could. On that same subject, that extra speed could make them quite good at dealing with Thunderclasts if the need arises, or defending the medbay (though there would likely be a Windrunner on standby) Truthwatchers - If they are being used as medics, they stay closer to base. While they are likely forbidden to directly speak of any future sight visions, I still feel that at least one would try to indirectly help out the Strategist at the command tent. Lightweavers - Supply via Soulcasting. *We often forget there are normal men on the Radiants side that need equipment too* Espionage (if applicable) which Shallan seems to have a knack for. If they can somehow spread misinformation, that plus their Illusions can have a tremendous impact on how a battle turns out. And as Windrunner brought up, Morale. Elsecallers - Supply via Soulcasting. There has to be a way to Elsecall more than just yourself, since dropping off more combat oriented troops around the back for an ambush is a strong tactic. Given their role as Spren diplomats, they could also be involved in crafting Fabrial-tech. Willshapers - We don't know enough about this Order for me to really say, but Transportation is still a useful ability. Of special note is that per Taln, Kalak (the Willshaper Herald) would teach men to cast bronze, and steel if he had enough time. Perhaps that might play into this somehow. Stonewards - I always saw them as being Tanks (the MMO type). Front line troops that can take a beating, but dish out a lot of pain while they do it. Taln's aptitude at facing the impossible and winning, even if he died in the process, heavily painted my mental image of this Order. Bondsmiths - One stays at Urithiru per WoR. I see the other two as a Front Line General and a Military Strategist. Front Line is like the Blackthorn, leading the charge and smashing the enemy. Strategist directing the battle from the command tent. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: @cometaryorbit Watch the Mistborn spoilers. You're revealing some rather significant plot points. Make sure to hide those in the quotes as well. Good point, fixed (though I don't think that terminology would mean anything to someone who didn't already know it all... (Mistborn spoilers) Spoiler the terms compounding and lerasium don't even show up in the first trilogy books. Edited January 1, 2017 by cometaryorbit terminology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Good point, fixed (though I don't think that terminology would mean anything to someone who didn't already know it all... (Mistborn spoilers) Reveal hidden contents the terms compounding and lerasium don't even show up in the first trilogy books. True. It's mainly the practice. If you keep the mindset of keeping everything of different series in spoilers, then it greatly decreases the chances that you accidentally let something slip. If you fall into the practice of just casually throwing around terminology, you could accidentally expand into ruining the book for someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted July 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 After re-reading the WoKs Dalinar vision with the female KR, she says all ten orders "fight for no king and for all of them." She later states that "all who can fight are needed" and that the knights Radiant are "warriors who protect and fight," that they "maintain the terrible art of killing, then pass them on to others when the desolation comes." So according to her, all orders' purpose is to fight and there are no non-battle orders of the knights radiants as I had originally presumed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 2, 2017 Report Share Posted July 2, 2017 23 minutes ago, ANRILU said: After re-reading the WoKs Dalinar vision with the female KR, she says all ten orders "fight for no king and for all of them." She later states that "all who can fight are needed" and that the knights Radiant are "warriors who protect and fight," that they "maintain the terrible art of killing, then pass them on to others when the desolation comes." So according to her, all orders' purpose is to fight and there are no non-battle orders of the knights radiants as I had originally presumed. According to this WoB there were non-combat Knights, but no non-combat orders. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1037#15 Quote QUESTION Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate? BRANDON SANDERSON It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate. TAGS shardplate , radiants So I think the discussion in this thread is still pretty spot on. All orders most likely trained for combat, but many of the Knights in the orders specialized more in the support role aspects and left the combat to others. I imagine we'll see some pretty creative uses of the powers for combat and utility both. Some powers will lend themselves more towards one than the other, but I think none of them will be useless for either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts