Dishardic intents

[Steeldancer]

Ok I read on another forum an idea that odium might get shattered or defeated in stormlight and that perhaps autonomy might come and pick up the shard, which leads me to wonder about how shards combine. After going through theoryland, I got this: 

1. Harmony works because preservation and ruin are such perfect opposites

2. Picking up a shard when you already have one changes your intent.

So here's my theory: if autonomy were to get her hands on odium, her shard would become something like insularism. A hatred of change and intermingling between all the planets. I would love speculation on other combinations of intents below. Also, does anybody know how that might affect Taldains magic system? Scadrials didn't change because the two shards were already on it, but if you added an extra into a one shard invested planet, how would that change things? Mind you this is all speculation and I realize it would all be RAFO'd if I asked Brandon about it. 

[ZenBossanova]

Call it Vengence. 

It is happy to act on its own, but to also hate those things that need hating / need to be avenged. 

That said, I don't think Autonomy is going to leave her star. If Odium is picked up, it will probably be by someone on Roshar. 

[Oversleep]

We even made a fancy spreadsheet

[Vissy]

Blasphemy! Honor + Odium would be Justice!

[ZenBossanova]

Justice is too dispassionate for Odium + Honor. 

In any case, I was using Vengeance for Odium + Autonomy. 

But as long as we are thinking this way, would Odium + Cultivatation would be Wildlife? Something that expresses life, but as 'Nature, red in tooth and claw'. 

[Exalted]

Odium + Honor, depending on the person who picks them up, could be Righteousness, as in righteous fury. (Brandon did say something about the Vessel being able to influence the Intent of Shard combos, right? Like, Harmony was only Harmony because that's how Sazed viewed the combination.)

Odium + Autonomy could easily be Vengeance, but I think something like Supremacy would work well, too. Aloof from the rest of the universe, but hates them at the same time, so he/she/it places him/her/itself above them by nature.

10 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

But as long as we are thinking this way, would Odium + Cultivatation would be Wildlife? Something that expresses life, but as 'Nature, red in tooth and claw'. 

Savagery? Best I can come up with for now...

[Vissy]

Well, I mean, Honor's intent is to "bring things together", to "unify" them. There's a lot about keeping your word and the such too. "Organization" seems to be a big part of it. That's why Justice fits Odium + Honor so well - there can be many kinds of justice as well as it's organized.

As for Odium + Cultivation, let's think about what these things are. Odium represents divine wrath; it's a pure rage against all. Cultivation grows, nurtures, thinks far ahead, deals in long-term projects - that sort of thing. So perhaps we should be looking for words like "Grudge", "Malignancy", "Vendetta", "Feud" - out of which "Feud" and "Malignancy" seem the best-fitting to me, in that order.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Rob Lucci

[Jondesu]

The problem I have with Justice for Odium+Honor is that hate has no place in justice (I know, you could call it hatred of dishonor, but even that doesn't fit to me). Fanaticism fits better in my mind, or maybe Revenge. A dark vigilante like The Punisher or Daredevil comes to mind.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

The problem I have with Justice for Odium+Honor is that hate has no place in justice (I know, you could call it hatred of dishonor, but even that doesn't fit to me). Fanaticism fits better in my mind, or maybe Revenge. A dark vigilante like The Punisher or Daredevil comes to mind.

Exactly. This is my thought as well. Justice is about eye for an eye, punishing equivalently to what is deserved. Hatred isn't a factor. Fanaticism and Revenge seem a lot better. 

[Vissy]

Perhaps a more fitting term would be Punishment, then. I don't really think Revenge fits - what would Odium + Honor be there to avenge? Fanaticism, on the other hand, doesn't even begin to describe either Odium or Honor. We have to look at the concepts of Honor and Odium - unification, organization, truth + rage, hatred, vengeance, divine wrath. What we get is *organized hatred* - if Odium is a pure-rage chaotic evil, then Honor + Odium would be an efficient, sort of lawful-evil form of that.

[Exalted]

Odium + Honor: Shard of Lawful Evil

Preservation + Ruin: Shard of True Neutral

Odium + Autonomy: Shard of Chaotic Evil

Hmm...I wonder what all of the others would be...

[Oversleep]

Like I said in that other topic: Fanaticism has to be made up of Devotion. And I don't think the other one would be Odium, hate isn't obligatory in being a fanatic.

[cometaryorbit]

On 12/24/2016 at 11:55 AM, ZenBossanova said:

But as long as we are thinking this way, would Odium + Cultivatation would be Wildlife? Something that expresses life, but as 'Nature, red in tooth and claw'. 

IMO, something like that would be what you get from Cultivation plus Ruin (who by WOB would be very compatible Shards). Odium IMO is less a 'natural force' Shard like Ruin, Preservation, and Cultivation and more a 'social/antisocial concept' Shard like Honor, Devotion, and Dominion.

Cultivation plus Odium would be...

On 12/25/2016 at 6:32 AM, Rob Lucci said:

As for Odium + Cultivation, let's think about what these things are. Odium represents divine wrath; it's a pure rage against all. Cultivation grows, nurtures, thinks far ahead, deals in long-term projects - that sort of thing. So perhaps we should be looking for words like "Grudge", "Malignancy", "Vendetta", "Feud"

...yes, this exactly. The Shard of grudges, generational feuds, the cycle of violence.

Honor plus Odium, IMO, would be something like 'Conquest', 'Battle-glory'. Courage taken to a destructive extreme, first to the exclusion of all other virtues, and then warped into being defined solely by killing your enemies. A war god, but the bloody murderous Greek Ares, not the civilized Roman Mars.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Honor plus Odium, IMO, would be something like 'Conquest', 'Battle-glory'. Courage taken to a destructive extreme, first to the exclusion of all other virtues, and then warped into being defined solely by killing your enemies. A war god, but the bloody murderous Greek Ares, not the civilized Roman Mars.

AU spoilers

Spoiler

Ambition would be part of that.

 

[Vissy]

16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Honor plus Odium, IMO, would be something like 'Conquest', 'Battle-glory'. Courage taken to a destructive extreme, first to the exclusion of all other virtues, and then warped into being defined solely by killing your enemies. A war god, but the bloody murderous Greek Ares, not the civilized Roman Mars.

This is actually why I first suggested Justice for Honor + Odium - justice, but taken to an extreme. In a sense, it wouldn't be true justice, but rather that marred and motivated by hatred. Perhaps "Grievance"?

 

[Argent]

I've always liked Vengeance for Honor + Odium. 

[Blightsong]

I think people associate Cultivation with nature too much in the context of the shard. The Shards all seem to be abstract ideals, and Cultivation in the sense of agriculture seems too worldly. The more abstract definition for Cultivation is 'refinement' and i think this fits better with what we have seen on Roshar, especially with surgebinding.

My ideas for dishardic intent are:

Cultivation+Odium=Corruption

Cultivation+Ruin=Destruction

Cultivation+Endowment=Philanthropy

Ambition+Ruin=Ruthlessness

Ambition+Autonomy=Greed

Ambition+Dominion=Conquest

Autonomy+Cultivation=Reform

Autonomy+Devotion=Egocentricity

Autonomy+Honor=Decorum, Dignity

Autonomy+Endowment=Sacrifice

Autonomy+Ruin=Deprivation

Endowment+Honor=Inspiration

Endowment+Odium=Contamination

 

I'll probavaly post more tomorrow, its getting late.

[Genesis]

Just to chuck another word out there for the Honor + Odium combo - Retribution? My hatred demands vengeance, My honor demands justice? (Not just quoting Brent weeks here either!  )

[CodeMnke]

I think fanaticism would be devotion + ambition

[Knight Oblivion]

On 12/23/2016 at 1:04 PM, The Flash said:

Ok I read on another forum an idea that odium might get shattered or defeated in stormlight and that perhaps autonomy might come and pick up the shard, which leads me to wonder about how shards combine. After going through theoryland, I got this: 

1. Harmony works because preservation and ruin are such perfect opposites

2. Picking up a shard when you already have one changes your intent.

So here's my theory: if autonomy were to get her hands on odium, her shard would become something like insularism. A hatred of change and intermingling between all the planets. I would love speculation on other combinations of intents below. Also, does anybody know how that might affect Taldains magic system? Scadrials didn't change because the two shards were already on it, but if you added an extra into a one shard invested planet, how would that change things?

Autonomy picking up Odium probably wouldn't alter or add any magic systems on Taldain unless she/he/it/they/zer invested the planet. If that did happen, there would probably result in fun/crazy stuff like on Roshar or Sel.

[CodeMnke]

I have actually wondered about being ABLE to pick up other shards. Sazed was only able to pick up to because he was "connected enough" to both. And a holders intent/personality etc is shaped over time by the shard they hold. Would someone who had held a shard a long tome be able to be connected enough to the other shard to pick up the power? May depend on the shards in question but I'd generally guess no.

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, CodeMnke said:

Would someone who had held a shard a long time be able to be connected enough to the other shard to pick up the power? [. . .] I'd generally guess no.

This right here is why I dislike the "only sufficiently connected to the Shard to pick it up" concept. However, if he can bypass that with sufficient amounts of power (such as the power used to create the "orb" in Secret history) then it might not be so bad

[Steeldancer]

Ok thanks. That 

19 hours ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Autonomy picking up Odium probably wouldn't alter or add any magic systems on Taldain unless she/he/it/they/zer invested the planet. If that did happen, there would probably result in fun/crazy stuff like on Roshar or Sel.

Was entirely vague lol. But that is what I sort of assumed might happen to a magic system in that case. That or the magic system would become more powerful, with more raw investiture to draw from