New WoB on the Iriali

[VirtuousTraveller]

Quote

QUESTION

I’ve been fixating on this mass exodus. The Iriali, are they the people of the mass exodus? I’ve always wanted it to be the people of Threnody.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The Iriali are not native to Roshar. There is stuff going on on Threnody too, it shares some similarities.

This is an interesting tidbit from Brandon's Chicago signing.  We know that the Listeners/Parshendi are native to Roshar, but aren't sure about the other beings on the planet and whether or not they've always been on Roshar.  This bit about the Irali appears to be new.  So what do we know about them?

The Iriali Have Been on Roshar for a Long Time

Iri was one of the Silver Kingdoms on Roshar, so it's roots go deep into the history of the planet.  They would have witnessed the Heralds themselves and experienced the desolations as a culture.

The Iriali Have a Religion that Includes The Long Trail

Ym gives us some interesting information about the Iriali people:

Quote

"One being," Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. "Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And do, One became many-us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things."

"We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the fourth land."

"Eventually, all will be gathered back in- when the Seventh Land is attained- and we will once again become one."

"More people did know this, once. It's not talked about as much as it should be..."

So, we should not be surprised that the Iriali have not always been on Roshar.  It seems that their people have been on three other worlds prior to arriving here, and that they expect to move on to two additional worlds before finally arriving back at oneness in the Seventh Land.  I know others on the shard have discussed this story as a possible reference to the shattering of Adonalsium.

Something Weird is Going On in Their Biggest City:  Rall Elorim

Rall Elorim is known as the City of Shadows and is a strange place.  Folks here on the shard have speculated that the reference to shadows may mean that this place is where Cognitive Shadows of dead Knights Radiant or spren live.  Since this is the largest city in this nation, I'd doubt it's entirely inhabited by Cognitive Shadows.  Though, if we assume that the Iri migrated through the Cognitive Realm from Nalthis to Roshar (see bellow), it could be that the city is located in the Cognitive Realm.

Kasitor:  Home of Cusicesh the Protector

An extremely large spren named Cusicesh who, at exactly 7:46am every day, rises out of the water of the bay and creates an illusion of waves around it.  A translucent blue color, it measures over 100 feet tall - Axies refers to it as one of the largest spren he's ever seen.  With four long arms and a strange face that rapidly shifts through male and female faces, it looks eastward toward the Origin.  Those who gather to watch it appear frequently report feeling "drained" after seeing it.  Some of the Iriali worship it, placing golden pedestals out to honor it.

Questions Raised

What other worlds were the Iriali on before?  They have metallic, golden hair and paint themselves with colors and patterns.  They also have strong chastity laws and discourage public nudity.  Some of this sounds reminicent of Nalthis, where bright colors, the muted conservatism of Austre, and "the Royal Locks" are a part of cultures there.  Since it seems that Vasher and Denth (if not others) of the Five Scholars travelled to Roshar in the past (and that Vasher is currently on the planet, as is Nightblood), there do seem to be connections here.  Since the Expanse of the Densities has been speculated to refer to Nalthis, that Iri is right there on the Physical and Cognitive maps of Roshar, it makes sense that the Iri could have migrated from there.

What similarities are there to the migration on Threnody?  Are they the cultural ancestors (or decedents) of the Iriali?

What is happening with the draining sensation that the people feel in the presence of Cusicesh?  Is it a similar happening to a Larkin sucking out stormlight from a surgebinder?  Do people on Roshar have innate Investiture that could be drained in this manner?  Not anyone can be a vessel of stormlight, so what is it that Cusicesh is doing to them?  Also, what is the symbolism of the faces that appear?  Why does it appear on such a regular schedule?

So other than the Listeners/Parshendi, what other peoples were native to Roshar?

[soyperson]

Is Iyatil Iriali?

Edited December 13, 2016 by bleeder

[Jofwu]

1 minute ago, bleeder said:

Is Iyatil Iriali?

She's Scadrian, no? Or is the idea that she did spend time there, but she's not from there?

[soyperson]

4 minutes ago, jofwu said:

She's Scadrian, no? Or is the idea that she did spend time there, but she's not from there?

Found this on Theoryland earlier today:

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what planet is she [Iyatil] from?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, that's kind of a hard thing to say. She has three planets she's "from". For example, she's living now on Roshar, but then she's from a different planet, but that's not the planet that her people are from.

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So there was a mass exodus to that planet?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not exactly. If you were to find a Japanese American, where would they say that they are from? Her people did not have a mass exodus.

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

Have we seen mass exoduses before?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, there are some in the cosmere. There's a mass exodus that is mentioned in one of the interludes in The Way of Kings.

 

I think that her people are from Scadrial, migrated to somewhere else (Threnody, perhaps?) and then she found her way to Roshar.

[BeskarKomrk]

I was definitely freaking out when I transcribed that question. I was a little surprised it didn't get more attention in the signing thread, because I thought it was a huge revelation.

29 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

What similarities are there to the migration on Threnody?  Are they the cultural ancestors (or decedents) of the Iriali?

My understanding is that the similarity is that they've both gone through mass migrations. Brandon may also be implying that the Iriali were similarly fleeing a cataclysm of some sort, and that's why they migrated in the first place. Personally, I think it's very possible that they migrated from Ashyn a long time ago (I think we know via WoB that there was some sort of cataclysmic event there).

4 minutes ago, jofwu said:

She's Scadrian, no? Or is the idea that she did spend time there, but she's not from there?

See this WoB:

Quote

Question (Paraphrased)

Is Mraize a worldhopper?

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)

Yes, he's been to a few planets, highly supervised by his babsk.

Question (Paraphrased)

So what planet is she [Iyatil] from?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, that's kind of a hard thing to say. She has three planets she's "from". For example, she's living now on Roshar, but then she's from a different planet, but that's not the planet that her people are from.

Question (Paraphrased)

So there was a mass exodus to that planet?

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly. If you were to find a Japanese American, where would they say that they are from? Her people did not have a mass exodus.

Question (Paraphrased)

Have we seen mass exoduses before?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there are some in the cosmere. There's a mass exodus that is mentioned in one of the interludes in The Way of Kings.

So I would interpret that as: Iyatil lives on Roshar and is Scadrian, but wasn't born/didn't grow up on either of those planets. Also worth noting that this is the WoB that the original "mass exodus" quote comes from, prompting the question about the Iriali in the OP here.

[Delightful]

Iyatil is Southern Scadrian, with her mask and everything, I believe.

[soyperson]

1 minute ago, Deliiiiiightful said:

Iyatil is Southern Scadrian, with her mask and everything, I believe.

Oh, I got the origin and the migration thing mixed up. 

I think her people are from somewhere else, perhaps Threnody, and that she is from the Southlands of Scadrial, and then found her way to Roshar. 

Also, Del, your image is clever. I like.

[Jofwu]

Just now, bleeder said:

I think that her people are from Scadrial, migrated to somewhere else (Threnody, perhaps?) and then she found her way to Roshar.

I thought I'd heard something like that (the WoB), but he seems to be saying Iyatil wasn't part of any migrations. I imagine those would have happened over great stretches of time.

My thinking on Iyatil is that she's obviously not originally Rosharan- she's just there now. Given her strong cultural ties to Scadrial, I assume she was raised there. And that leaves some other world that she was born on. Could be that Scadrial was first, but unless she spent a lot of time there I don't think the mask habit would have stuck. And if she stayed that long, I don't see how she could be considered "from" the mystery world. But then, given she's a worldhopper with a crazy lifespan it's hard to say.

[Delightful]

1 minute ago, bleeder said:

Oh, I got the origin and the migration thing mixed up. 

I think her people are from somewhere else, perhaps Threnody, and that she is from the Southlands of Scadrial, and then found her way to Roshar. 

Also, Del, your image is clever. I like.

Huh, I kind of assumed she originated on Roshar and moved on from there. I don't think we have a way to know for sure though.

 

Thanks! Took way too much fiddling without photoshop but I really like it. You all were getting festive so  

[soyperson]

3 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I thought I'd heard something like that (the WoB), but he seems to be saying Iyatil wasn't part of any migrations. I imagine those would have happened over great stretches of time.

My thinking on Iyatil is that she's obviously not originally Rosharan- she's just there now. Given her strong cultural ties to Scadrial, I assume she was raised there. And that leaves some other world that she was born on. Could be that Scadrial was first, but unless she spent a lot of time there I don't think the mask habit would have stuck. And if she stayed that long, I don't see how she could be considered "from" the mystery world. But then, given she's a worldhopper with a crazy lifespan it's hard to say.

Yeah, I think she was raised on Scadrial. I mean, just because you were born somewhere doesn't mean the places you go can't change you.

Brandon stated there was a "mass exodus" that we have already seen. Are we figuring that the Iriali are what he is referring to?

[VirtuousTraveller]

5 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Brandon stated there was a "mass exodus" that we have already seen. Are we figuring that the Iriali are what he is referring to?

I would think so, but what was the mass exodus from The Way of Kings interludes?  Axies the Collector is in Iri, but I can't recall if he mentions anything about an exodus or a migration.

[Jofwu]

Quote

"One being," Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. "Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And do, One became many-us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things."

"We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the fourth land."

"Eventually, all will be gathered back in- when the Seventh Land is attained- and we will once again become one."

"More people did know this, once. It's not talked about as much as it should be..."

Could that not be what Brandon is simply referring to? The way the question/answer are worded, I don't think it (necessarily) means we've literally seen people migrating.

[Pagerunner]

A couple of notes on Iyatil to clear the air:

She is living on Roshar.

Her heritage is from Scadrial.

She was not born on Taldain or Threnody. (Or, by process of elimination, Roshar or Scadrial.)

So, of the known Shardworlds, she could come from Sel or Nalthis. (Silverlight was my #1 guess, but it's not a planet. And First of the Sun wasn't a part of the worldhopping community at the time.) It's also possible she's from another Shardworld.

[VirtuousTraveller]

9 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Could that not be what Brandon is simply referring to? The way the question/answer are worded, I don't think it (necessarily) means we've literally seen people migrating.

I agree that we haven't literally seen people migrating, but perhaps the evidence of a migration, like the presence of the Iriali on Roshar or another race on Roshar that was originally not from there.  Do we have any confirmation that other races have migrated to Roshar?  We know that the Aimians aren't human, but that doesn't mean they're from somewhere else.

[Sarevok]

From the wording that Brandon is using and his comparison to a Japanese-American, could he be implying that she (and by extension all Southern Scandrians) aren't originally from Scadrial and migrated in from somewhere else?

[BeskarKomrk]

4 minutes ago, Sarevok said:

From the wording that Brandon is using and his comparison to a Japanese-American, could he be implying that she (and by extension all Southern Scandrians) aren't originally from Scadrial and migrated in from somewhere else?

I don't think that's what he's trying to say here. He's specifically trying to say that there was not a mass immigration of Southern Scadrians, but that Iyatil is an isolated case of someone from Scadrian heritage immigrating to another planet and having a family there. I think the WoBs that Pagerunner posted are pretty definitive when taken together with the one I posted above. We have three planets referenced when talking about Iyatil: where she lives, where she's from, and where her people are from. We know from the books that she lives on Roshar. Pagerunner's post specifies that her heritage is Scadrian, which means that's where her people are from. So the only question is, where is she from specifically? I don't think the answer to that question relates in any way to the origination of the Southern Scadrians. Additionally, they can use the Metallic Arts, which means they must either have originated on Scadrial (created by Ruin and Preservation) or they must have all eaten Lerasium (which seems unlikely given how rare it is).

[Demiandre]

I see that as Iyatil being an interbreeding of people from different planets. Wasn't the people of Scadrial created by Ruin and Preservation ? And didn't tLR kept the Southerners unchanged in case his modifications on skaa and noble wasn't efficient (I think I saw a recent WoB about this) ? ==> after all, Brandon Sanderson might have danish ascendants for all we know, but he is american.

So my guess is that Iyatil was born on Scadrial, from a southerner and an unhabitant of another planet (possibly a Worldhopper), and migrated to Roshar at some point.

[emailanimal]

1 hour ago, Sarevok said:

From the wording that Brandon is using and his comparison to a Japanese-American, could he be implying that she (and by extension all Southern Scandrians) aren't originally from Scadrial and migrated in from somewhere else?

No. What he says is this. South Scadrial is ancestrial homeland. We saw her people briefly in Bands of Mourning.  Some people from her nation worldhopped to a different planet. She was born an immigrant on that planet. Since that time, she worldhopped to Roshar where she now resides permanently.  So, in Earth terms she is of Japanese descent, born and raised in United States, and currently working in Canada.

[emailanimal]

I am looking at the Irali situation as follows:

1. Humans cannot be native to Roshar.  Even if we assume benevolent Creator who can create any sort of life at any place, this still does not look right. Listeners are native to Roshar in that respect (although they were also "created").

2. So, all humans came to Roshar at some point from somewhere.

3. Probably from different places.

4. When? A long time ago. Pre-historically. Two options are: before Shattering and after Shattering. The latter would mean, brought in by Honor and Cultivation.

5. Recall that creating life requires a lot. Preservation had to have Ruin.  Not certain  if Honor and Cultivation have it in them to creat life from scratch (although Cultivation might).

6. My money is more on humans migrating to Roshar, or being brought to Roshar by Shards.  

7. Irali mention The One who is now many. This is, to me, a reference to Adonalsium and the Shattering.

8. The analog of the Long Trail on Earth is The Trail of Tears. We can ask Brandon, but I bet, this is what he was thinking about when he developed this notion.

9. He mentions Irali in the same breath as the Threnody situation. There is a massive resettlement on Threnody because Evil came to a continent.

10. Conjecture: Irali may be originally from Yolen, fleeing fainlife to establish new homeland.  

11. They talk about Roashar being the fourth land. It is possible that they fled through Nalthis, as part of their Trail. Perhaps some people stayed on Nalthis.

12. It might make sense to ask Brandon if Evil on Threnody is related to fainlife. Just to see his reaction.

[Pagerunner]

1 minute ago, emailanimal said:

I am looking at the Irali situation as follows:

2. So, all humans came to Roshar at some point from somewhere.

3. Probably from different places.

9. He mentions Irali in the same breath as the Threnody situation. There is a massive resettlement on Threnody because Evil came to a continent.

Of particular note is a recent Reddit WoB on linguistics, where he lays out the major language groups of Roshar. Horneater/Parshendi are descendant languages of Dawnchant, and the three main other language groups are Vorin (Alethi/Veden/Thaylen), Makabaki (around 30 divergent languages), and Iriali (with Purelake, and I think Reshi, languages in there), with each Aimian species having their own language that isn't connected to anything else. So, that could indiciate 3 different human migrations in the distant past; the Vorin, the Makabaki, and the Iri. I think Shin goes with the Dawnate languages, which would imply that they preceeded the influx of other humans. I'll need to track down the actual WoB, though.

For your point on Threnody, that was prompted by the questioner. There are two mass exoduses, but they can be for different reasons, and over different scales. Brandon wasn't comparing the two situations, he was agreeing somewhat that with the questioner's comparison, saying that there are similarities.

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

5. Recall that creating life requires a lot. Preservation had to have Ruin.  Not certain  if Honor and Cultivation have it in them to creat life from scratch (although Cultivation might).

Preservation and Ruin needed each other to create Scadrial not because of the power required, but because individually their intents prevented them from doing so. 

[emailanimal]

27 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Preservation and Ruin needed each other to create Scadrial not because of the power required, but because individually their intents prevented them from doing so. 

Notice that I did not write "a lot of power".  More like "a lot of breadth".   A good question to Brandon is "How many Shards or possible Shard combinations can create life?"

 

30 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Of particular note is a recent Reddit WoB on linguistics, where he lays out the major language groups of Roshar. Horneater/Parshendi are descendant languages of Dawnchant, and the three main other language groups are Vorin (Alethi/Veden/Thaylen), Makabaki (around 30 divergent languages), and Iriali (with Purelake, and I think Reshi, languages in there), with each Aimian species having their own language that isn't connected to anything else. So, that could indiciate 3 different human migrations in the distant past; the Vorin, the Makabaki, and the Iri. I think Shin goes with the Dawnate languages, which would imply that they preceeded the influx of other humans. I'll need to track down the actual WoB, though.

Yes! Forgot to mention that, but this was one of my favorite recent WoBs.   With the caveat that neither race (i.e., how one looks), nor language are perfect predictors of one's ancestral roots,  I tend to agree that in the case of Roshar, this may be evidence of three distinct origins for three distinct events of people coming to Roshar. The last one could've been Honor bringing what later became the Vorin nations to Roshar.

 

At the same time, there are examples of linguistic changes that do not fit "one race = one langauge group" pattern. The two examples I will cite are Jews switching from Hebrew which is from Semitic branch of Afroasiatic family to Yiddish (a Germanic Indo-Eurpoean language) in Germany (the Ashkenasim) and Ladino (a Romance Indo-European language) in Spain (Sephardim), and the example of Germanic tribes: Franks, specifically, adopting Latin vernacular as their language upon conquering Latin-speaking Gaul in 5th-8th centuries (Goths did the same earlier).

Ho, Horneater might be a descendant of Dawnchant because Horneaters are the descendants of Listener-human interbreeding, but Shin may be speaking a related language simply because they have arrived into an area populated by the Listeners, were a minority population for a while and picked up the language of the majority, developing it later into one of their own.  My original comment on Shin being a Dawnchant descendant was that regardless of the explanation, the reasons have got to be really interesting.

 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

12 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

Notice that I did not write "a lot of power".  More like "a lot of breadth".   A good question to Brandon is "How many Shards or possible Shard combinations can create life?"

Fair enough. Yet the implication is that you're saying a lot of power, which is why I added the correction. If you don't want that implication to exist, perhaps add a bit more information instead of leaving it that open-ended. 

[emailanimal]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Fair enough. Yet the implication is that you're saying a lot of power, which is why I added the correction. If you don't want that implication to exist, perhaps add a bit more information instead of leaving it that open-ended. 

Bygones. Let's talk about the Long Trail instead.

[Ted aka WinespringBrother]

17 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

A couple of notes on Iyatil to clear the air:

She is living on Roshar.

Her heritage is from Scadrial.

She was not born on Taldain or Threnody. (Or, by process of elimination, Roshar or Scadrial.)

So, of the known Shardworlds, she could come from Sel or Nalthis. (Silverlight was my #1 guess, but it's not a planet. And First of the Sun wasn't a part of the worldhopping community at the time.) It's also possible she's from another Shardworld.

I think Brandon implied at JordanCon that Iyatil is from Silverlight:

 

Interview: Apr 23rd, 2016

Brandon Sanderson RAFOlympics at JordanCon 8 (Verbatim)

Question

Obviously the world covers different planets, but most people on individual planets don’t know about the other planets. Is there a planet within the Cosmere where worldhopping is common knowledge?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there a planet in the Cosmere where worldhopping is common knowledge. Um… it’s not a planet. Someone: It’s a space station? [Audience laughs] That’s no moon!

 

Brandon Sanderson

That’s… not as far off as people laughing think that it is. [More laughter] It’s not a space station, it’s not that futuristic, but there is a place in the Cosmere where a lot of worldhoppers have settled, is where Iyatil is from, even though her ethnicity is not from there.

Question

Clarifying question. Is that place in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

[laughs] RAFO!

Question

It’s the Cognitive Restaurant At The End Of The Universe? [many references to Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy follow]