[AU/BoM Spoilers] Did Rian hear from Trell? (plus some Trell=Autonomy musing)

[Jofwu]

I noticed something interesting in a SoS reread last night. At the end of chapter 7, Wax goes in to interrogate Rian, the spiked man who tried to shoot Winsting. Here's a rough quote:

Quote

"She said you'd come talk to me," Rian said softly.

"She?" Waxillium said.

"God."

"Harmony?"

"No. She said I had to kill the governor. Attack him. I tried not to listen."

Waxillium narrowed his eyes. "You met her. What did she look like? What face was she wearing?"

"You can’t save him," Rian said. "She’s going to kill him. She promised me freedom, but here I am, bound. Oh, Ruin."

Two chapters later it is revealed that Rian was spiked by some unknown metal (likely trellium). In that same chapter, Wax hears a voice in his head while wearing his earring.

In both cases, Wax assumes that the voice he hears is Paalm. But... does that really make sense? There's really no precedent for a person (including kandra) to talk to somebody via Hemalurgy. Isn't it much more likely that some other Shard is at work? "Someone else moves us lawman." Given the context revealed in BoM, doesn't it seem likely that Trell is at work here?

In fact, I'd like to go even a step further. I'm reading this in the context of the new info released with AU, where we learned that (1) Bavadin is female (technically, at least) and (2) Autonomy is away from Taldain, meddling somewhere else. This context made the "she" stand out to me. What if "she"=Trell=Autonomy?

I'm not super familiar with Era 2 Mistborn, so help me out if I'm missing something in all of this. Isn't Paalm's message and mission about "freeing" Scadrial from Harmony's control? How certain are we that Paalm is acting completely on her own here? She IS spiked by some unknown metal. Presumably trellium. Are we really sure that she wasn't (at least partially) under the influence of another Shard? A Shard who wants to divorce a planet from the control of Harmony?

Remember: "Someone else moves us lawman."

[BeskarKomrk]

Darn it, now I have to go reread SoS to check your theory out in more detail.

I remember some discussion when it first came out about whether or not the voice in Wax's head was really Paalm. Doesn't he comment that it sounds similar to her actual voice or something? Not that that really means much when Shards are involved, as Ruin was able to replicate Reen's voice in Vin's head.

We're not at all certain that Paalm was acting on her own, and it seems 100% likely that she was influenced to some degree by another party. Whether that influence was in the form of direct communication throughout the events of the book, or whether it was simply a suggestion and the gift of a spike that would free her from Harmony's control, is the real question. Trell being Autonomy is a pretty popular theory, which I think is definitely strengthened by the new information we've received, as you point out in your theory.

One thing I haven't seen people talk about much is how sure we are of the connection between the unknown metal that Paalm had and "Trell". The name Trell was mentioned by Miles at the end of AoL, and then when thinking about the unknown metal at the end of SoS Marasi decided to try and learn more about Trell. However, the two are never connected by either Miles or Paalm. Even in BoM, when we find out that the Set worships Trell, it is never connected to the actions of Paalm or the unknown metal specifically. The Set support her actions in SoS, but Wax's uncle is very clear that she is not one of them and that he, in particular, voted against helping her. While I do think it's unlikely that there are two different powerful entities messing with Scadrial at the same time (aside from Harmony), it's still worth talking about and making sure that we aren't making unwarranted assumptions. I've seen a lot of Trell theories that pull evidence from both Bleeder and the Set, but I don't believe it's been confirmed 100% that they are related.

In any case, I definitely think your theory has merit, and I will probably do some re-reading tonight to look for evidence. I think it's pretty indisputable that Paalm was influenced by somebody. Who that somebody is and the degree of influence is open for debate.

[Jofwu]

27 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

I remember some discussion when it first came out about whether or not the voice in Wax's head was really Paalm. Doesn't he comment that it sounds similar to her actual voice or something? Not that that really means much when Shards are involved, as Ruin was able to replicate Reen's voice in Vin's head.

Exactly. Ruin impersonated Reen, for example, so I don't know if that really matters.

I don't know if there's really any evidence for what I'm saying. But given how Brandon likes to set things up... and assuming that Era 2 will come together in the end to tell a single overarching story in the end... This seems like a real possibility to me so long as there isn't sturdy evidence against it.

I can easily see this being the sort of thing that gives you chills on a reread, after Lost Metal.

Edit: Oh, and to be clear... I don't think what I'm saying requires Paalm to be totally under Trell's influence. Maybe Paalm is just working with/for Trell. Heck, maybe she really is completely doing her own thing; I don't think that rules out the possibility that Trell is poking around in the middle of her work. And in either case, I don't think all of Trell's pawns necessarily have to be on the same page, working with one another.

Edited December 12, 2016 by jofwu

[Sallin Zeras]

52 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I noticed something interesting in a SoS reread last night. At the end of chapter 7, Wax goes in to interrogate Rian, the spiked man who tried to shoot Winsting. Here's a rough quote:

Two chapters later it is revealed that Rian was spiked by some unknown metal (likely trellium). In that same chapter, Wax hears a voice in his head while wearing his earring.

In both cases, Wax assumes that the voice he hears is Paalm. But... does that really make sense? There's really no precedent for a person (including kandra) to talk to somebody via Hemalurgy. Isn't it much more likely that some other Shard is at work? "Someone else moves us lawman." Given the context revealed in BoM, doesn't it seem likely that Trell is at work here?

In fact, I'd like to go even a step further. I'm reading this in the context of the new info released with AU, where we learned that (1) Bavadin is female (technically, at least) and (2) Autonomy is away from Taldain, meddling somewhere else. This context made the "she" stand out to me. What if "she"=Trell=Autonomy?

I'm not super familiar with Era 2 Mistborn, so help me out if I'm missing something in all of this. Isn't Paalm's message and mission about "freeing" Scadrial from Harmony's control? How certain are we that Paalm is acting completely on her own here? She IS spiked by some unknown metal. Presumably trellium. Are we really sure that she wasn't (at least partially) under the influence of another Shard? A Shard who wants to divorce a planet from the control of Harmony?

Remember: "Someone else moves us lawman."

Very likely. I think the whole Wax and Wayne series have been leading up to this. Since the first chapter with Bloody Tan, and then with Miles, Paalm, Rian, this post made me change my opinion on The Who is Trell question. At first, I thought Trell was Odium, but I was not thinking outside the box. Now, we know that Odium is the Bad Guy in Stormlight and that the Wax and Wayne series take place between Stormlight 5 and Stormlight 6. So, in the scene in which Edwarn is killed, the Faceless Inmortal tells him that Trell now wants to destroy Scadrial. I thought about this for a long time, and I now think that Odium will be splintered in Stormlight 5 and Bavadin will take his power.

[Jofwu]

Just wanted to add that he doesn't recognize the voice in his head at first. Maybe the voice changes later? Can't remember. But when he first heard it the voice it sounds "rasping and crude. Brutal."

Probably reaching too far here, but... The voice of a dragon, maybe? :-)

[soyperson]

14 hours ago, jofwu said:

Just wanted to add that he doesn't recognize the voice in his head at first. Maybe the voice changes later? Can't remember. But when he first heard it the voice it sounds "rasping and crude. Brutal."

Probably reaching too far here, but... The voice of a dragon, maybe? :-)

I'm all for Bavadin-as-shapeshifting-fem-dragon-Shardbearer.

[emailanimal]

I am happy to see theories advancing Bavadin = Trell or Bavadin ~ Trell ideas.  If what you are saying is true indeed (question to Brandon!), this is very subtle: on par with the opening lines of The Final Empire describing the Hero of Ages.  If we knew back then that Bavadin is a "she", we'd probably pay more attention. 

 

My current MO is to suspect that every religion that cannot be tied to the goals of the presiding planetary Shard is the result of Bavadin's meddling. So... good catch.

[Jofwu]

I'm just going to keep adding to this as I notice more things during my reread...

It dawned on me this morning that Steris and Winsting are in the middle of a conversation when Wax hears the voice in his head at the party. Another thing that doesn't seem odd before you realize Winsting=Paalm, but when you do... Is it possible that Paalm can converse with Steris (while impersonating somebody) AND talk in Wax's head at the same time? Maybe, but I doubt it. Again, not much but it's light support that Paalm isn't the one speaking via Hemalurgy.

On the downside, the voice does speak very personally. Things like "I am going to kill your Father," which certainly sounds like the person actually doing the killing. If nothing else it suggests that Trell is very involved and not just watching on and providing subtle support.

Side note: I can't remember... Do we find out who killed the priest? Did Paalm sneak away to do it somehow, or was it somebody else?

@BeskarKomrk, if you do get into a reread let me know if you see anything that supports or weakens this theory.

[BeskarKomrk]

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

I'm just going to keep adding to this as I notice more things during my reread...

It dawned on me this morning that Steris and Winsting are in the middle of a conversation when Wax hears the voice in his head at the party. Another thing that doesn't seem odd before you realize Winsting=Paalm, but when you do... Is it possible that Paalm can converse with Steris (while impersonating somebody) AND talk in Wax's head at the same time? Maybe, but I doubt it. Again, not much but it's light support that Paalm isn't the one speaking via Hemalurgy.

On the downside, the voice does speak very personally. Things like "I am going to kill your Father," which certainly sounds like the person actually doing the killing. If nothing else it suggests that Trell is very involved and not just watching on and providing subtle support.

Side note: I can't remember... Do we find out who killed the priest? Did Paalm sneak away to do it somehow, or was it somebody else?

@BeskarKomrk, if you do get into a reread let me know if you see anything that supports or weakens this theory.

I think it's believable that Paalm could converse out loud and via telepathy at the same time. It's something to ask Brandon (we don't even know the "method" of the telepathy in terms of Realmatics), but given that Paalm could literally split her brain into two, I think she could probably manage to do both at once.

I believe, and Coppermind agrees, that the priest was killed by Paalm impersonating another priest. The governor disappears from the party while Wayne is questioning people, and the timing seems to work out such that Paalm could have murdered the priest right after leaving.

I will definitely let you know. I'm currently in the middle of another book (Lies of Locke Lamora), so it may not be for a little while, but I'll keep this theory in mind for sure.

[Jofwu]

9 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

I believe, and Coppermind agrees, that the priest was killed by Paalm impersonating another priest. The governor disappears from the party while Wayne is questioning people, and the timing seems to work out such that Paalm could have murdered the priest right after leaving.

That's what I figured, though it seems a mystery how she got away from her guards for that long... I was thinking the guards weren't in on the ruse? Eh... I just need to keep reading and found out.

[BeskarKomrk]

2 minutes ago, jofwu said:

That's what I figured, though it seems a mystery how she got away from her guards for that long... I was thinking the guards weren't in on the ruse? Eh... I just need to keep reading and found out.

A self-RAFO? Impressive.

I assumed that either there was a separate compartment to whatever carriage the governor was in that allowed Paalm to slip out unnoticed, or she just said to the guards "hey I'm gonna take a walk for a bit, you keep going" and they did what she said because she's the governor.

[Jofwu]

More tidbits:

In chapter 14 Marasi and MeLaan look at info about the man blew up a damnation and caused flooding, named Johnst. They read that he acted very strangely and couldn't remember the names of his family before being executed. He also claimed that he only intended to cause trouble for a neighbor--not kill people and flood an entire region. Lastly, they read that his grave was desecrated shortly after burial. They conclude that Paalm must have been impersonating Johnst. That she blew the damnation, let them bury her, and then crawled out of the grave. But MeLaan casts some doubt on the first few points. Paalm is too skilled an impersonator to mess something up as simple as family names.

What if it wasn't Paalm, but Johnst himself. He was spiked, and under the influence of Trell. Trell convinced/made him to blow the damnation. And given this experience, it's not surprising he was going mad in the end. Perhaps Paalm dug up his bones for some other purpose, afterwards. To retrieve the spike, for example.

This is perhaps more of a stretch than Marasi and MeLaan's conclusion. It's certainly more complicated. But it's suspicious to me how Sanderson has them point out multiple times in the conversation that the man acted strangely (not as if he were being impersonated by a skilled kandra).

[BlackYeti]

43 minutes ago, jofwu said:

More tidbits:

In chapter 14 Marasi and MeLaan look at info about the man blew up a damnation and caused flooding, named Johnst. They read that he acted very strangely and couldn't remember the names of his family before being executed. He also claimed that he only intended to cause trouble for a neighbor--not kill people and flood an entire region. Lastly, they read that his grave was desecrated shortly after burial. They conclude that Paalm must have been impersonating Johnst. That she blew the damnation, let them bury her, and then crawled out of the grave. But MeLaan casts some doubt on the first few points. Paalm is too skilled an impersonator to mess something up as simple as family names.

What if it wasn't Paalm, but Johnst himself. He was spiked, and under the influence of Trell. Trell convinced/made him to blow the damnation. And given this experience, it's not surprising he was going mad in the end. Perhaps Paalm dug up his bones for some other purpose, afterwards. To retrieve the spike, for example.

This is perhaps more of a stretch than Marasi and MeLaan's conclusion. It's certainly more complicated. But it's suspicious to me how Sanderson has them point out multiple times in the conversation that the man acted strangely (not as if he were being impersonated by a skilled kandra).

I'm guessing the "damnation" thing was caused by an auto-correct, because I can't see him blowing up Braize without his own Death Star. I don't think even the Lord Ruler had one of those, and he was a bona fide Evil Emperor. 

More seriously though, I think you're reading too much into this. I don't see Paalm having the time to research the man's family, so it's understandable that she wouldn't know their names. Also she's more than a little bit mad, so somewhat unpredictable.

[Landis963]

13 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm guessing the "damnation" thing was caused by an auto-correct, because I can't see him blowing up Braize without his own Death Star. I don't think even the Lord Ruler had one of those, and he was a bona fide Evil Emperor. 

More seriously though, I think you're reading too much into this. I don't see Paalm having the time to research the man's family, so it's understandable that she wouldn't know their names. Also she's more than a little bit mad, so somewhat unpredictable.

There's a joke in there somewhere about blowing up the dam dam. 

[Jofwu]

The strongest evidence against this so far is in chapter 16, when the voice talks to Wax before Paalm fakes the attack on Innate.

At first it spoke about some biology (white blood cells?) that supposedly is unknown to Scadrian scientists. Seems unlikely to me that Paalm would know more than scientists about white blood cells, though maybe it's a kandra thing. A Shard would certainly know about it though.

It also seems like the voice can hear him when he speaks VERY softly.

HOWEVER, then Wax does actually see Paalm and when he moves closer Paalm speaks to him with a very similar voice to what he hears in his head.

[Argent]

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

At first it spoke about some biology (white blood cells?) that supposedly is unknown to Scadrian scientists. Seems unlikely to me that Paalm would know more than scientists about white blood cells, though maybe it's a kandra thing. A Shard would certainly know about it though.

Kandra specifically are actually a little ahead of the rest of Elendel Basin in terms of science. Their access to the Words of Founding, plus occasional chats with Harmony, allows them to get a head start on pretty much everything (e.g. see VenDell's comment about projectors - evanoscopes? - likely becoming common place a year or two in the future). 

But generally I like your idea. There are some holes in it, there is some serious evidence that suggests it is Paalm who speaks to Wax, not another entity, but even those can be explained away (e.g. you could make a claim that Bavadin, via her spike in Paalm, has some measure of control over the kandra, in a manner similar to how Ruin and Harmony can control them; maybe her twist on Hemalurgy allows her a smaller measure of control, kind of like a middle ground between Ruin/Harmony's no control at one spike and full control at two).

 

EDIT: It would be also be neat if Rian foreshadows Autonomy, parallel to how Reen foreshadowed Ruin. The nameplay is fun.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Argent

[Jofwu]

How about this...

Middle of chapter 20. On the Words of Founding pages that Wax finds, one of them says, "WE'll give you freedom whether you--"

[teknopathetic]

Another shard shouldnt be able to speak to a Spiked person. The reason Ruin and Preservation could speak to Scadrialites is because Ruin and Preservation had Created sentient life there. There was more connection involved between Ruin and Preservation and their creations. Another shard shouldnt share this ability as far as we've seen. 

[Landis963]

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Another shard shouldnt be able to speak to a Spiked person. The reason Ruin and Preservation could speak to Scadrialites is because Ruin and Preservation had Created sentient life there. There was more connection involved between Ruin and Preservation and their creations. Another shard shouldnt share this ability as far as we've seen. 

Why not?  Any Spiritual influence of sufficient magnitude should be able to speak to/affect a spiked person (see also: the Flaw).  Admittedly, Ruin and Preservation would probably have priority, at least with a Scadrian spiked with one of the 16 base metals, but if they're not listening/distracted, I don't see why that opening couldn't be exploited by any other Shard who happened to be present.  

[Yata]

Honestly I don't think Bavadin may comunicate with someone on Scadrial (as I don't think Harmony may send/recive message to his Kandra out of Scadrial).

Secret History Spoiler:

Spoiler

We saw that Ruin and Preservation need to be actually near the subject they want hear/speek too. Of course when I say "need to be there" I talk about part of their concentration/mind.

I can't actually believe Bavadin pushes some of his mind between the Substrates of the CR into Sazed's Reign stay there for a while really really close someone on Sazed's VIP list (Wax) without our Harmony notice it. Other than the "oh He notice me", She will actually put some of her mind at risk...Sazed is a nice guy, but I think He may actually tear apart some of her mind to teach her to don't mess in his house.

PS: Sazed said also, He is using his power to Shield Scadrial from outer influence, Bavadin will have hard time to enter Sazed's reign...Of couse we don't know if Sazed put the Shield before or after SoS.

[teknopathetic]

10 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Why not?  Any Spiritual influence of sufficient magnitude should be able to speak to/affect a spiked person (see also: the Flaw).  Admittedly, Ruin and Preservation would probably have priority, at least with a Scadrian spiked with one of the 16 base metals, but if they're not listening/distracted, I don't see why that opening couldn't be exploited by any other Shard who happened to be present.  

Remember how Ruin could only talk to a person while Preservation could hear their thoughts? This was the case because Ruin and Preservation each had a hand on creating life on Scadrial. Since humanity was a piece of the two shards, the shards had a stronger connection and bond to the sentient life. Those two shards had a specific influence over their creations. 

So while anything is possible, a shard being able to communicate with a spiked Scadrialite seems a tad inconsistent. 

[Argent]

On 12/17/2016 at 10:38 PM, teknopathetic said:

Another shard shouldnt be able to speak to a Spiked person. The reason Ruin and Preservation could speak to Scadrialites is because Ruin and Preservation had Created sentient life there. There was more connection involved between Ruin and Preservation and their creations. Another shard shouldnt share this ability as far as we've seen. 

I think you might be committing a logical fallacy here. We don't actually know why Ruin and Preservation can speak to and hear (respectively) Scadrians. It is certainly likely that it is because Scadrians are literally made of Ruin and Preservation, but that doesn't have to be the case. For example, I think there was a WoB some time ago that said that Odium can communicate with people, but it's much more vague and general type of thing (i.e. not so much speech as... impressions) - in fact, we know Shallan's father was being influenced by him*, and this is all in a magical system and world where Shardic radio is not really a thing. Who's to say that a Shard who has sufficiently invested themselves in Scadrial wouldn't get the ability to speak to/with people as well? Trell, whether he ends up being Autonomy or not, seems to be already benefiting from both Allomancy (Bleeder's spikes) and Hemalurgy (the "evil kandra").

* Strictly speaking, we don't know that. Somebody asked if Shallan's father was being influenced by Odium, and Brandon confirmed this, but he could've meant that Lin was being influenced by odium, by hatred, not by the Shard Odium specifically. 

[teknopathetic]

9 hours ago, Argent said:

I think you might be committing a logical fallacy here. We don't actually know why Ruin and Preservation can speak to and hear (respectively) Scadrians. It is certainly likely that it is because Scadrians are literally made of Ruin and Preservation, but that doesn't have to be the case. For example, I think there was a WoB some time ago that said that Odium can communicate with people, but it's much more vague and general type of thing (i.e. not so much speech as... impressions) - in fact, we know Shallan's father was being influenced by him*, and this is all in a magical system and world where Shardic radio is not really a thing. Who's to say that a Shard who has sufficiently invested themselves in Scadrial wouldn't get the ability to speak to/with people as well? Trell, whether he ends up being Autonomy or not, seems to be already benefiting from both Allomancy (Bleeder's spikes) and Hemalurgy (the "evil kandra").

* Strictly speaking, we don't know that. Somebody asked if Shallan's father was being influenced by Odium, and Brandon confirmed this, but he could've meant that Lin was being influenced by odium, by hatred, not by the Shard Odium specifically. 

I'll try to find you the WoB on Preservation and Ruin being able to communicate BECAUSE they created life on Scadrial and thusly they had a higher level of Connection with the inhabitents. I can't recall where I read that, but I'll look today. 

While i do believe Odium or Trell could influence someone, I doubt they could form specific words in the victim's head. Endowment didn't seem able to speak with Lightsong (until, well - spoilers) even though Lightsong  had a considerable amount of her investiture.

It seems like Odium is capable of Rioting in some fashion, but speech seems to be a very difficult skill for a Shard to pull off. Sentient minds seem to have some sort of mental protection from Shardic influence. You would think Ruin could just speak with anyone at anytime, yet he cant. And even with many spikes in a victim, his knowledge is not complete. 

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by teknopathetic

[Steeldancer]

On 12/12/2016 at 10:34 AM, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said:

Very likely. I think the whole Wax and Wayne series have been leading up to this. Since the first chapter with Bloody Tan, and then with Miles, Paalm, Rian, this post made me change my opinion on The Who is Trell question. At first, I thought Trell was Odium, but I was not thinking outside the box. Now, we know that Odium is the Bad Guy in Stormlight and that the Wax and Wayne series take place between Stormlight 5 and Stormlight 6. So, in the scene in which Edwarn is killed, the Faceless Inmortal tells him that Trell now wants to destroy Scadrial. I thought about this for a long time, and I now think that Odium will be splintered in Stormlight 5 and Bavadin will take his power.

I like this idea. Could we possibly predict what kind of shard would be created with the uniting of these two intents? Because the hatred and the autonomy would turn into... insularism. A hating of all things changing. And therefore imagine how a shard like that would feel about star travel. 

[soyperson]

Just now, The Flash said:

I like this idea. Could we possibly predict what kind of shard would be created with the uniting of these two intents? Because the hatred and the autonomy would turn into... insularism. A hating of all things changing. And therefore imagine how a shard like that would feel about star travel. 

That's... brilliant.