DarkJester

Renarin Kohlin

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Ok. This question is a spoiler if you haven't finished the first two books. Be warned. That said, I'm curious about Renarin's spren. Time and time again, we are told, even by Sil I believe, that seeing the future is a thing of the void bringers. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Renarin is doing just that. I'm pretty sure that it was him writing the count down and not Dalinar. He's predicting the end during the ever storm. So on and so forth. So that being said. Has Renarin bonded a void spren? 

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I doubt he's bonded a void-Spren, as he claims he is a truthwatcher, which is a known order. I also think Syl has never claimed seeing the future is of the voidbringers (though I might be wrong). The claim that seeing the future is wrong might have come up after the betrayal of the Knights radiant, either independently or as part of an effort to discredit the orders.

In fact, 2 minute-theory time: what if the knights radiant abandoned their oaths based on some sort of prophecy or foresight of something that would happen if they didn't. The fact that they abandoned their oaths because of a prediction was known by others and resulted in the belief that seeing the future was wrong.

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I'm not really aware of what theories are out there on this, but if I remember correctly, Honor says that to speak of the future is forbidden, not necessarily to just see it. I think in one of the epigraphs it also talks about how the truth watchers were pretty tight-lipped on whatever they saw. I wonder if speaking the future somehow gives odium an edge, or maybe it is forbidden in the oathpact.

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Can anyone confirm if it was Daliar or Renarin who wrote the numbers. I assume it will be in oathbringer but this has been on my mind as well. 

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26 minutes ago, Jame Starmade said:

Can anyone confirm if it was Daliar or Renarin who wrote the numbers. I assume it will be in oathbringer but this has been on my mind as well. 

I know there was a WoB confirming it was Renarin, though I don't think I can find it right now.

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On 12/11/2016 at 4:20 PM, IntentAwesome said:

I'm not really aware of what theories are out there on this, but if I remember correctly, Honor says that to speak of the future is forbidden, not necessarily to just see it. I think in one of the epigraphs it also talks about how the truth watchers were pretty tight-lipped on whatever they saw. I wonder if speaking the future somehow gives odium an edge, or maybe it is forbidden in the oathpact.

Honor says he is not good at seeing the future, Cultivation was better than him. We need to remember that Surgebinding partially comes from Cultivation who is quite good at seeing the future. Lots of Vorin traditions seem to be misunderstandings of real things (Lighteyes is a misunderstanding where lighter eyes replaced the original definition of literally having Light coming from one's eyes is the greatest example) That there is an order on the Cultivation side of the Radiants (Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, Edgedancers, Elsecallers) who can see the future doesn't surprise me. Shallan gets visions as part of her illumination surge like when she sees the crew of the Wind's Pleasure coming ashore or when she sees The Mistress aka Ash aka Shalash destroying a statue. Renarin also has his vision healed, he hears screams when he touches a shard blade, and he seems to fit the sttributes of the Truthwatchers. Finally, it just makes sense that an order called the Truthwatchers would be related to visions and seeing things. All the orders seem to have a unique ability that is related to their name that isn't specifically their surges. Kaladin can feel the wind and it acts almost like a spidey sense allowing him to react more quickly to stimuli. Shallan has her perfect visual memory and can draw events she has never seen. It is inplied that the Skybreakers had a unique ability to determine the innocent from the guilty, and Lift seems to be able to understand people instinctively. 

Edited by thejopen27
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From Way of Kings, pg 332 Kindle edition,  "To speak of what might be is forbidden," the voice said. "To speak of what was depends on perspective." Emphasis mine.

This is during one of Dalinar's visions, and Honor is speaking as Taffa, one of the women in the vision.

Also, "Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did," from WoR, pg 297.

I do think that Cultivation and Truthwatchers are good at seeing the future, and i think that it is unlikely that Truthwatchers bind voidbringers, but what I'm questioning is what are the consequences of speaking of the future. Why did earlier Truthwatchers never speak of what they saw? Why did Renarin just write numbers on a wall (he can barely write glyphs) instead of telling somebody? Why does Honor say it is forbidden?

 

 

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1 hour ago, IntentAwesome said:

From Way of Kings, pg 332 Kindle edition,  "To speak of what might be is forbidden," the voice said. "To speak of what was depends on perspective." Emphasis mine.

This is during one of Dalinar's visions, and Honor is speaking as Taffa, one of the women in the vision.

Also, "Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did," from WoR, pg 297.

I do think that Cultivation and Truthwatchers are good at seeing the future, and i think that it is unlikely that Truthwatchers bind voidbringers, but what I'm questioning is what are the consequences of speaking of the future. Why did earlier Truthwatchers never speak of what they saw? Why did Renarin just write numbers on a wall (he can barely write glyphs) instead of telling somebody? Why does Honor say it is forbidden?

 

 

It probably has to do with changing the future through misunderstanding interpretations of prophesy. You meet your destiny on the road you take to avoid it or something.The Almighty only ever really talks about the future in the last vision in WoK, on the clifftop overlooking the destruction of the world. He talks about branching futures. Maybe the Truthwatchers didn't talk of the future because they worried about their prediction causing that prediction to come true.

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Or Odium can listen to people but can't read what they write on stone. Similar to Ruin not being able to read from metal. All of the prophecies to my knowledge were written on stone. Plus the shin believe stone to be sacred and they do seem to know the most about what is going on, similar to the Kandra.

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Interesting question on the Truthwatchers. I've inferred the strategy / reason for the Recreance was the Bondsmith, which would line up with Ishi attempting to break the Oathpact. Odd that both the order and the Herald that are most in the binding of things are the ones that seem to have causes the most misery by attempting to circumvent the very nature of their purpose.

I hadn't thought of stuff in stone being unchangeable by Odium. If that is the case, it makes the Diagram susceptible? All the copies of the diagram, susceptible. Joy.

 

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49 minutes ago, weebojello said:

Interesting question on the Truthwatchers. I've inferred the strategy / reason for the Recreance was the Bondsmith, which would line up with Ishi attempting to break the Oathpact. Odd that both the order and the Herald that are most in the binding of things are the ones that seem to have causes the most misery by attempting to circumvent the very nature of their purpose.

I hadn't thought of stuff in stone being unchangeable by Odium. If that is the case, it makes the Diagram susceptible? All the copies of the diagram, susceptible. Joy.

 

That's a very good point. I wander if that will play into things. The diagram is very accurate. Although there are some things that differ ever so slightly. In the case of the Radiants though, the Diagram seemed to keep their attention everywhere but where it needed to be... 

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I kinda doubt Brandon Sanderson  would use the same exact weakness but it could be that every Shard has some sort of communication weakness. He does stay consistent to the universe laws but doing something like this might seem repetitive.

Every single "magic" system he builds are very different from one another but still follow the same basic laws. He might give each Shard a different handicap related to them individually.

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What if someone/something was messing with Renarin ? He can't fight the urge to scribble on the wall. He has been diagnosed as epileptic, but I can't shake the feeling that there is something amiss with his seizures.

Truthwatcher aren't suppose to write or tell of what they do. But Renarin can't seem to help it. Could someone or something "possess" him, forcing him to write down what he sees to sow chaos ? As Vorin tradition goes, it would be bad to have a seer in the most reknown Alethi House. Or it could have been a ploy to lead the Alethi army to wage war, thus forcing the Parshendi to seek power and bring the everstorm.

Obviously I'm thinking foremost about an Unmade here.

There could be more mobile there, but I think it could match what we have so far, no ?

 

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On 12/11/2016 at 3:52 PM, Jame Starmade said:

Can anyone confirm if it was Daliar or Renarin who wrote the numbers. I assume it will be in oathbringer but this has been on my mind as well. 

Given that we have seen Renarin actually write one of those numbers at the end of the book, it is pretty unambiguious as to who did it.

22 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

he hears screams when he touches a shard blade

This is generic of all people with an emerging spren bond, so it seems. Not a function of Renarin being on the Cultivation side of KR orders. Although I agree with almost everything else you say there. To me, visions of future are of Cultivation, not of Odium. If Odium knew future, we probably would not be having the Stormlight Archive.

21 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

I do think that Cultivation and Truthwatchers are good at seeing the future, and i think that it is unlikely that Truthwatchers bind voidbringers, but what I'm questioning is what are the consequences of speaking of the future. Why did earlier Truthwatchers never speak of what they saw? Why did Renarin just write numbers on a wall (he can barely write glyphs) instead of telling somebody? Why does Honor say it is forbidden?

I actually like it a lot. Internally, this works well with Renarin's "I see" and with the description of how Truthwatchers were in the days of yore, that you are citing.  There are some WoBs where is hemms and haws on the topic of Renarin's visions that make some people believe that they are not part of Truthwatcher powers, and there is the overall idea that we have seen healing and lighweaving in the hands of Lift and Ym on one side and Shallan on the other side, so we should be able to gain an idea of how Truthwatchers would operate, and none of that included receiving visions. More like giving them to others. 

It might also be useful to have some understanding of what these visions are. The Everstorm vision is very curious, because we were supplied the exact countdown to it. Basically, we know that time exists in Physical and Cognitive Realms, but in Spiritual Realm time does not exist. So, any vision of the future in Cosmere must include two aspects:

 a. ability to peek into the Spiritual Realm

b. ability to place what has been seen in time

It appears that the ability of Shards to "see future" is a function of how good or bad they are with part b. of this equation. Honor can see into Spiritual Realm as well as Cultivation or Odium or Harmony. But Honor is much worse at making sense out of it than Cultivation is or Leras was.

6 hours ago, weebojello said:

I've inferred the strategy / reason for the Recreance was the Bondsmith, which would line up with Ishi attempting to break the Oathpact.

Oathpact and Recreance are thousands of years apart.

 

5 hours ago, Jame Starmade said:

 

I kinda doubt Brandon Sanderson  would use the same exact weakness

 

It depends on whether there is a Cosmere law that underwrites this weakness. We have seen certain things repeat themselves in the books, but when they do, it is because Brandon is making use of a Cosmere law, and wants to make a specific point about it.

 

4 hours ago, Demiandre said:

Truthwatcher aren't suppose to write or tell of what they do. But Renarin can't seem to help it.

 This is because no one gave Renarin the "Truthwatcher Guide to Survival".  The order had its rules. When a new Truthwatcher manifested, he got inducted and got the briefing. It was explained to the new Truthwatcher exactly why talking about Truthwatcher business is a bad thing.  Renarin does not have a welcome committee. 

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9 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

This is because no one gave Renarin the "Truthwatcher Guide to Survival".  The order had its rules. When a new Truthwatcher manifested, he got inducted and got the briefing. It was explained to the new Truthwatcher exactly why talking about Truthwatcher business is a bad thing.  Renarin does not have a welcome committee. 

Also Renarin doesn't have control of his visions. They seem to come only with the highstoms and are specifically about the Everstorm so far. Otherwise he would have at least suggested some different tactics throughout the book. 

 

On another note he does does have his spren to guide him and tell him the dangers of telling others about what might come to pass

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7 minutes ago, Jame Starmade said:

On another note he does does have his spren to guide him and tell him the dangers of telling others about what might come to pass

As we have seen, the spren have been demonstrating startling levels of unreliability in that regard. 

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Well they seem to know what is wrong according to their order. They just don't know why yet.

 

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9 hours ago, Jame Starmade said:

I kinda doubt Brandon Sanderson  would use the same exact weakness but it could be that every Shard has some sort of communication weakness. He does stay consistent to the universe laws but doing something like this might seem repetitive.

Every single "magic" system he builds are very different from one another but still follow the same basic laws. He might give each Shard a different handicap related to them individually.

Someone asked him if that's what Odium was doing (in the context of the Diagram) and IIRC Brandon said Odium "wasn't pulling a Ruin", implying he wasn't changing the written words like that.

Edit: Question 58 here too http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium'

Quote

BLIGHTSONG

Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial? (I was wondering this because it would make it easy for him to manipulate Mr.T that way.

BRANDON SANDERSON

*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea.

 

Edited by Jondesu
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Just because he doesn't change written word doesn't mean he is able to read it.

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8 hours ago, emailanimal said:

This is because no one gave Renarin the "Truthwatcher Guide to Survival".  The order had its rules. When a new Truthwatcher manifested, he got inducted and got the briefing. It was explained to the new Truthwatcher exactly why talking about Truthwatcher business is a bad thing.  Renarin does not have a welcome committee. 

Well I don't see Glys saying to Renarin «you shouldn't speak or write what you see!» and Renarin be «oh ok, I'll stop having fits and be raving while writting on the wall, possibly framing other people at the same time»

I think, and am pretty sure, that Renarin could act normally, but someone or something mess with him. It can't be just a question about control of the surges.

The why he shouldn't write is not a problem here. The problem is why he can't prevent himself from writting.

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@emailanimal - I realize the Oathpact sundering and the recreance are thousands of years apart. What I'm suggesting is that the Order that Ishi founded and Ishi are the prime instigators for both the Oathpact (still active, but attempted to be broken) and the Recreance. So, there's a relationship, though quite a bit of difference between.

Odd though.

Back on topic - I think Renarin will be very interesting to watch because of the order itself. Very intriqued with what they can and cannot do, and how much Renarin will improve as ... whatever it is he's able to do and become.

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41 minutes ago, weebojello said:

I realize the Oathpact sundering and the recreance are thousands of years apart. What I'm suggesting is that the Order that Ishi founded and Ishi are the prime instigators for both the Oathpact (still active, but attempted to be broken) and the Recreance. So, there's a relationship, though quite a bit of difference between.

My reading of the old history is somewhat different.  This is how I envision it. Honor and Cultivation make home on Roshar. Perhaps move some humans in the process, perhaps not. Take over highstorms, kick off a new generation of spren, life is good. Then Odium shows up and is all like, I am gonna kill you. And it is difficult, because Cultivation and Honor are strong, and they are entrenched on Roshar. So, Odium starts attempting to weaken their bonds: steals Listeners away with stormform, basically is causing issues.

So, Honor and Cultivation put their heads together and figure out the Heralds and Oathpact. In the process, 10 people are offered the jobs - perhaps not all of them Roshar natives, perhaps not all of them are really *given* that choice. Honor picks dudes, Cultivation picks ladies. The Oathpact happens. Each Herald plays a separate role in dealing with desolation. Someone is a craftsman, someone is an organizer, someone is the strike force, someone is the healer, someone is the scout, someone is the CIA, someone is the last line of defense.... To me, Ishar as an entity, as a Herald is important after the Oathpact, not before. Before it, he may have been a wily priest, or a wise monarch, or a Mr.T.-style visionary. But the real impact is really, post-becoming a Herald/Cognitive Shadow.

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How far in the future can he see and couldn't that help him in his abilities in  fighting. He really sucks at it now. If he is able to see his opponent's move before they strike it will be like a Alchemist when they burn that certain metal right. How could he not win a fight.

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Well to be fair the only time he's ever trained with a sword it's been screaming at him every time he touches it.

Edited by Jame Starmade
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On 12/13/2016 at 4:20 AM, Demiandre said:

Well I don't see Glys saying to Renarin «you shouldn't speak or write what you see!» and Renarin be «oh ok, I'll stop having fits and be raving while writting on the wall, possibly framing other people at the same time»

I think, and am pretty sure, that Renarin could act normally, but someone or something mess with him. It can't be just a question about control of the surges.

The why he shouldn't write is not a problem here. The problem is why he can't prevent himself from writting.

I had always thought Renarin's behavior during the climax of WoR was mostly because what he saw was so terrible/traumatic to witness. I had taken it more as a clue to just how bad things are going to get. And I think we have a recent WoB saying that was haven't really seen odium spren yet. Though, to be fair, we haven't actually seen Renarin's spren. 

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