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The Beyond and how it works


Vissy

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In Secret History, Harmony had this to say about the Beyond:

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“I can’t bring them back,” Sazed said softly. “Not yet . . . perhaps not ever. The Beyond is a place I can’t reach.”

What would Harmony say about the Beyond now, when thousands of years have passed? Has he learned anything? damnation I want to ask that question or something like it from Brandon.

...is it possible to *sobs* GET VIN BACK?

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Brandon has said that the Beyond is something he wants to leave a mystery, since it allows separation from the religions of the Cosmere, and real-life religions with afterlives.  He probably won't ever bring someone back from Beyond, nor show us what it is or looks like.

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Just remember what might as well be the tagline for the entire Cosmere: There's always another secret. Some things are always going to remain a mystery.

Incidentally, coming back after dying pretty much always requires the divine intervention from 'fractional gods' (except for Threnody where it happens without any active intercession, but Shades seem to operate more on instinct than other cognitive shadows) and having something beyond even them fits in with the themes of the series.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

What would Harmony say about the Beyond now, when thousands of years have passed? Has he learned anything? damnation I want to ask that question or something like it from Brandon.

Only about three hundred have passed at this point and he doesn't appear to know more in Era 2 than he did at the end of Era 1. He wants to believe there's something to the Beyond but admits he doesn't know.

Edited by Weltall
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I always interpreted "there's always another secret" as an embodiment of discovery, not only as a resignation to that fact. I mean, people gotta at least *try* to see what's in the Beyond. If you can go there at will from the Cognitive World after you lost your link to the physical world, then there's a way of examining it.

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I'm perfectly fine with the Beyond remaining unknown. I've just always felt that Vin and Elend never got to enjoy the benefits of peace. They had to deal with catastrophe after catastrophe. Now that my head-canon of them happily living out their lives on a farm somewhere is dead, I would settle for Vin coming back temporarily as a champion of Harmony or something similar.

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I like the idea of the Beyond, the fact that it's been set as that undeniable border where once you're past, you're gone. It gives us that understanding and mystery that if we don't say someone has gone to the Beyond, it possible that they can come back, and that if they have, then we know there are truly gone and it puts discussion to rest. Yes, in-Cosmere people are going to try to investigate the Beyond, but I'm fairly certain, based off of what Brandon has said, we're not going to see anything come of that, and definitely no one will come back from the Beyond.

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I just don't like the idea. Everything else in the Cosmere can be approached and understood with careful enquiry, from the "magic systems" to the local flora and fauna of each planet. I guess I just don't like this dualistic nonsense about a place that you just can't reach.

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2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I just don't like the idea. Everything else in the Cosmere can be approached and understood with careful enquiry, from the "magic systems" to the local flora and fauna of each planet. I guess I just don't like this dualistic nonsense about a place that you just can't reach.

It just depends on how we define our boundaries. "The Beyond" is called such because spirits travel outside the cosmere. There's a 'death' that people can come back from, like Kelsier or the Cognitive Shadows. But there's also a death that opens the doors to another experience, and that is not the experience Brandon is writing about. It's a fairly common occurrence in fantasy works, actually; there's becoming one with the Force in Star Wars, there's Aslan's Mountain at the end of Chronicles of Narnia, there's the unknown fate of the souls of men in Lord of the Rings (as contrasted with the elves, who remain immortal on the planet). The world of the author can be very well-defined, but any method of explaining the 'ultimate fate' could be unsatisfying (including, as you're pointing out, leaving it as a question mark). I, personally, think it's a good approach to have it be a one-way trip, lest we banalize the afterlife.

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2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I think I'll settle with the Horn of Valere approach. Afterlife which you can come back from as a sort-of-ghost for a limited duration.

It's called Cognitive Shadows and it's already a thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Kelsier does that. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain we're not going to see people back from the Beyond.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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4 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

Yes, obviously. I meant that for the Beyond.

That analogy isn't as good as you seem to think. Most souls in Wheel of Time are just the same as people who pass Beyond in the Cosmere, for all intents and purposes gone. It's only the rare ones who persist and can potentially interact with the living, just like there are relatively few Cognitive Shadows. Obviously WoT has its own setup where all souls persist in some sense so they can be reborn the next time the cycle of time repeats but until that happens, the souls of 99.9999999% of people who die are effectively gone 'forever' from the perspective of any given cycle.

We get that there are characters we'd love to see again but if wishes came true just because we made them, we'd have the complete series by now, with annotations, appendixes and complete encyclopedias. And full movie or television adaptations. And Mistborn theme parks. And Soonie Cubs. And Stick would reign supreme over all! <deep breath> Okay, I'm better now.

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2 hours ago, Weltall said:

That analogy isn't as good as you seem to think. Most souls in Wheel of Time are just the same as people who pass Beyond in the Cosmere, for all intents and purposes gone. It's only the rare ones who persist and can potentially interact with the living, just like there are relatively few Cognitive Shadows. Obviously WoT has its own setup where all souls persist in some sense so they can be reborn the next time the cycle of time repeats but until that happens, the souls of 99.9999999% of people who die are effectively gone 'forever' from the perspective of any given cycle.

We get that there are characters we'd love to see again but if wishes came true just because we made them, we'd have the complete series by now, with annotations, appendixes and complete encyclopedias. And full movie or television adaptations. And Mistborn theme parks. And Soonie Cubs. And Stick would reign supreme over all! <deep breath> Okay, I'm better now.

No need to get all pissy over it.

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Do you at least concede the point?

22 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

What kind of rides would they have at a Mistborn theme park? Just out of curiosity.

Coinshot/Lurcher 'rollercoasters' to give you the sensation of 'flying' through a recreation of Luthadel or Elendel (I'm sure they can do something with magnets), a haunted house ride with mistwraiths and Steel Inquisitors, a ride through a town in the Roughs a la Disney's 'Frontierland', maybe a water ride based on that one Allomancer Jak story, recreations of bars in Elendel with Wayne singing dirty songs...

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19 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

What kind of rides would they have at a Mistborn theme park? Just out of curiosity.

Here's a few ideas:

  • Coinshot / Lurcher rides (zip lines, roller coasters, and/or "Tower of Terror" style ride)
  • Lurcher obstacle course (ropes course with swinging vines)
  • Lurcher swings
  • Coin shot games
  • Hazekiller arcade
  • Ascension coaster (imitates bronze pulses and steel push jumps to Kredik Shaw, plunging into the Well of Ascension, then it gets all cosmic and ends in the edenic Elendel basin)
  • Vin's Horseshoe trick spinner ride
  • City wall bungee jump
  • Pewter drag rush (drag racing style ride or some kind of robot/tech assisted running)
  • Conventicle of Seran (haunted house)
  • Pits of Hathsin coaster (or maze)
  • Koloss Frenzy coaster
  • House War laser tag
  • Skimmer (Iron Ferring) bounce house or weightless simulation
  • Steelrunner (Steel Ferring) coaster
  • Gasper (Cadmium Ferring) Aquarium or scuba diving
  • Skimmer (air ship in Wax & Wayne Era) coaster or transport
  • Band of Mourning Temple rush (could be a roller coaster)
  • Shadesmar corpse barge (log flume or other water ride)
  • You could get a Nobelman's pass to skip to the front of the lines
Edited by KidWayne
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On 12/12/2016 at 1:23 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I'm perfectly fine with the Beyond remaining unknown. I've just always felt that Vin and Elend never got to enjoy the benefits of peace. They had to deal with catastrophe after catastrophe. Now that my head-canon of them happily living out their lives on a farm somewhere is dead, I would settle for Vin coming back temporarily as a champion of Harmony or something similar.

I feel exactly the same about Vin and Elend, that was one of the most tragic parts of their ending, they never got a chance to just enjoy the world that came after, to just.... be. Of course, in that new world Elend would be a King, and Vin wouldn't be happy if she wasn't prowling around, looking for new threats. Then again, she probably would have LOVED being able to dance through the skies of Elendell with all of the metal there...

I'm with you, my Faceless, Skeleton shifting friend! I'd love to see Vin come back just as a cameo in the future, even just as a Spirit to bolster and encourage and bless a future protagonist through their toughest moment in a vision/conversation, the way Harmony came to Wax.

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On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Rawrbert said:

 I'd love to see Vin come back just as a cameo in the future, even just as a Spirit to bolster and encourage and bless a future protagonist through their toughest moment in a vision/conversation, the way Harmony came to Wax.

But if we thought it was her and then it turned out to be some conwoman imitating her i would probably cry

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4 hours ago, MadhavDeval said:

But if we thought it was her and then it turned out to be some conwoman imitating her i would probably cry

Brandon might do that just to screw with us. Though honestly he won't, because those who actually are aware wouldn't be fooled because they know his stance on the Beyond.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/13/2016 at 10:57 AM, KidWayne said:

Here's a few ideas:

  • Coinshot / Lurcher rides (zip lines, roller coasters, and/or "Tower of Terror" style ride)
  • Lurcher obstacle course (ropes course with swinging vines)
  • Lurcher swings
  • Coin shot games
  • Hazekiller arcade
  • Ascension coaster (imitates bronze pulses and steel push jumps to Kredik Shaw, plunging into the Well of Ascension, then it gets all cosmic and ends in the edenic Elendel basin)
  • Vin's Horseshoe trick spinner ride
  • City wall bungee jump
  • Pewter drag rush (drag racing style ride or some kind of robot/tech assisted running)
  • Conventicle of Seran (haunted house)
  • Pits of Hathsin coaster (or maze)
  • Koloss Frenzy coaster
  • House War laser tag
  • Skimmer (Iron Ferring) bounce house or weightless simulation
  • Steelrunner (Steel Ferring) coaster
  • Gasper (Cadmium Ferring) Aquarium or scuba diving
  • Skimmer (air ship in Wax & Wayne Era) coaster or transport
  • Band of Mourning Temple rush (could be a roller coaster)
  • Shadesmar corpse barge (log flume or other water ride)
  • You could get a Nobelman's pass to skip to the front of the lines

How many of those rides would be painful? Like Koloss Frenzy? I'm totally for the idea, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere a raging koloss. We would need to go through a lot of development. Maybe like the gringots ride in universal for those who have gone. I think a Cosmere park would be pretty lit though. I would like to pay $30 for a Stick.

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  • 2 months later...
On 12/11/2016 at 3:08 PM, Rob Lucci said:

In Secret History, Harmony had this to say about the Beyond:

What would Harmony say about the Beyond now, when thousands of years have passed? Has he learned anything? damnation I want to ask that question or something like it from Brandon.

...is it possible to *sobs* GET VIN BACK?

This is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY how I feel! I NEED completion and to at least see her and Elend living a nice, happy, peaceful life together forever. Those books broke my heart. The other deaths I could somehow accept, but not those two for some reason.

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