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Still unconfirmed really. My opinion is that Nale started recruiting them several years ago when the signs of a Desolation began to appear. so it doesn't mean that they have existed since the FinalDesolation. 

Nale recruiting on one hand and killing upcoming Surgebinders for feeble reasons out of fear that they might trigger a desolation on the other hand doesn't add up for me. Also, Helaran goes quite early in Shallans flashbacks on his search for the Skybreakers. This could be just a "fake" organization, or the real thing. So It is most likely that the Skybreakers existed all the time.

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7 hours ago, Pattern said:

 

Nale recruiting on one hand and killing upcoming Surgebinders for feeble reasons out of fear that they might trigger a desolation on the other hand doesn't add up for me. Also, Helaran goes quite early in Shallans flashbacks on his search for the Skybreakers. This could be just a "fake" organization, or the real thing. So It is most likely that the Skybreakers existed all the time.

Plus the shardblade access for Helaran... suggests it's no ordinary imitation skybreaker group he joined

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7 minutes ago, Pattern said:

One more fact I wasn't aware of before Edgedancer: There are hive-beings on Roshar. (Lets call it the cremling-man for now, at least until i finish my reread or someone corrects me. Was just foreshadowed by strange behaving, nearly clever cremlings.

I think they were called "the sleepless".

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1 hour ago, axcellence said:

Plus the shardblade access for Helaran... suggests it's no ordinary imitation skybreaker group he joined

Except Helaran wasn't a surgebinder since his shardblade was a dead sprenblade, not a live one. That or he was somehow able to withstand the agonizing screams which those touching a dead sprenblade here when a nahel bonded person touches it.

51 minutes ago, Pattern said:

One more fact I wasn't aware of before Edgedancer: There are hive-beings on Roshar. (Lets call it the cremling-man for now, at least until i finish my reread or someone corrects me. Was just foreshadowed by strange behaving, nearly clever cremlings.

43 minutes ago, axcellence said:

I think they were called "the sleepless".

Dysian Aimians is the name of their race. They're the ones writing the blurbs on the back of the books. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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Arclo the sleepless it is. Aimian seems to fit since he speaks of "old Axies". Though it wasn't obvious to me that they are hive beings.

Back to the Skybreakers: In the Postscript, Brandon mentions that at least Nalan was working against the return of radiants for centuries: 

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By the time we see him again in that book, the Herald Nale will have accepted that his work of man centuries (watching and making sure the Radiants don't return) is no longer relevant.

So why surround himself just recently with apprentices and not all the time? There must have been the odd surgebinder once in a while, even if the appearance has multiplied only recently. Otherwise I can not imagine him staying focussed so long on that task. The economic way would have been to take the people attracting Highspren as apprentices to build a network of spies. Even as Herald there is no way he would have found every upcoming surgebinder on Roshar.

Together with the other hints, I think we can be fairly certain that the Skybreakers existed all the time in hiding and took up the task on or shortly afte the Day of Recreance.

My point in mentioning Helaran was not necessarily the shardblade, but the fact that he went on a quest to find the order of Skybreakers. There must have been rumours or legends in rural Vedenar which had some seed of truth in them. On that quest he found a group mighty enough to provide a shardblade - probably not a dead Highspren. Nalan wouldn't have issues using dead spren of another type. He also gives Nightblood to Szeth who hasn't attracted a spren yet. (perhaps the afterimage in Edgedancer hints to a new spren?) So it wouldn't be out of character to give Helaran a dead shardblade until he found himself a spren. There are enough shardblades not accounted for...

Edited by Pattern
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35 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Arclo the sleepless it is. Aimian seems to fit since he speaks of "old Axies". Though it wasn't obvious to me that they are hive beings.

Axies is a Simian Aimian, not a Dysian, and therefore not a sleepless and not composed of a hive. 

36 minutes ago, Pattern said:

So why surround himself just recently with apprentices and not all the time? There must have been the odd surgebinder once in a while, even if the appearance has multiplied only recently. Otherwise I can not imagine him staying focussed so long on that task. The economic way would have been to take the people attracting Highspren as apprentices to build a network of spies. Even as Herald there is no way he would have found every upcoming surgebinder on Roshar.

Together with the other hints, I think we can be fairly certain that the Skybreakers existed all the time in hiding and took up the task on or shortly afte the Day of Recreance.

My point in mentioning Helaran was not necessarily the shardblade, but the fact that he went on a quest to find the order of Skybreakers. There must have been rumours or legends in rural Vedenar which had some seed of truth in them. On that quest he found a group mighty enough to provide a shardblade - probably not a dead Highspren. Nalan wouldn't have issues using dead spren of another type. He also gives Nightblood to Szeth who hasn't attracted a spren yet. (perhaps the afterimage in Edgedancer hints to a new spren?) So it wouldn't be out of character to give Helaran a dead shardblade until he found himself a spren. There are enough shardblades not accounted for...

Good call on the quote, I must've missed it when I read Edgedancer. It does point towards the Skybreakers performing the subterfuge. 

I'm still of the opinion that Helaran never found the Skybreakers and was a Ghostblood when he died. The shardblade he possessed being from the Ghostbloods as well. I don't see the Skybreakers keeping dead sprenblades around either, it seems that they only recruit people who fit the profile of a Skybreaker. 

Szeth's afterimages is because his cognitive shadow or soul isn't properly bonded to his body, so a bit of lag is occurring. Chances are that he won't bond a spren but will gain powers from his bond with Nightblood instead.

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Dysian Aimians is the name of their race. They're the ones writing the blurbs on the back of the books. 

Quite sharp answer, on the point:

Rereading Arclos wording is quite ominous and reminded me of the blurb on WoK: "We watch the others. The assassin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince. But not you."

Axies is a Siah Aimian, the ones with blue nails and crystalline deep blue eyes, who can change their appearance (including writings on the skin). Arclo: "I can pass for human almost as well as a Siah can these days,..." - Siah Aimians still cast shadows in the wrong way, see Axies interlude in WoK.

Dysian Aimians are mentioned first by Wit to Dalinar in WoK: "I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emoton by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian."

I don't know if there is more about them in WoR, since I have only the hardcover version (e-books are so much easier to search). Until Oathbringer is available, another reread of WoR will be possible, though.

Now the question is: Are all sleepless Dysian Aimians, or are there other kinds?

 

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2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Quite sharp answer, on the point:

Rereading Arclos wording is quite ominous and reminded me of the blurb on WoK: "We watch the others. The assassin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince. But not you."

Brandon has confirmed it as well IIRC.

3 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Dysian Aimians are mentioned first by Wit to Dalinar in WoK: "I wonder if you could do that to a man. Pull him apart, emoton by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk. Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian."

Interesting. Didn't realize that.

3 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Now the question is: Are all sleepless Dysian Aimians, or are there other kinds?

I believe Brandon has said that Sleepless is another name for Dysian Aimians. Can't find where though. More exactly, all Dysian Aimians can identify as a Sleepless IIRC, so it could be open to other entities being termed a Sleepless as well.

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just saw that you answered while i was answering and taking my time :-)

Another thing coming to my mind: For Lift it seems to be enough to internalize the ideals. Wyndle appears as Shard-stick to block Nales Shardblade before she spoke the third ideal, but she thought it or the meaning of it before.

So might it be enough to mean the Ideals, for some orders at least, or is this just Lift with her Nightwatcher-awesomeness?

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3 hours ago, Pattern said:

just saw that you answered while i was answering and taking my time :-)

Another thing coming to my mind: For Lift it seems to be enough to internalize the ideals. Wyndle appears as Shard-stick to block Nales Shardblade before she spoke the third ideal, but she thought it or the meaning of it before.

So might it be enough to mean the Ideals, for some orders at least, or is this just Lift with her Nightwatcher-awesomeness?

The number of ideals a KR needs before being able to manifest their spren physically is not a fixed number across all orders. So it could be that she only needed the second ideal in order to do so. That, or I think personally that it's all about the cognitive embracing of the ideal. Saying it aloud doesn't actually matter, except in most cases, people can focus on an idea more easily when it is said aloud versus internally. 

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5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The number of ideals a KR needs before being able to manifest their spren physically is not a fixed number across all orders. So it could be that she only needed the second ideal in order to do so. That, or I think personally that it's all about the cognitive embracing of the ideal. Saying it aloud doesn't actually matter, except in most cases, people can focus on an idea more easily when it is said aloud versus internally. 

I totally agree that is more likely about a cognitive embracing of the ideal but just to throw out the thought, did Lift not have to say it out loud because of her weird cognitive status?

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Meanwhile I read something similar in the compiled WoB. It is indeed the general idea that matters and not the exact wording. So as soon as the spren realizes that the Surgebinder has internalized the Ideal, it should be enough.

For Edgedancers it is the third ideal to make the spren physical, Wyndle whines a bit about not wanting to be stuck into people, more or less as a hint for Lift, while it wasn't possible yet.

PS. A happy New Year to y'all!

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No wider implications like the rest of the stuff on here, but I'm like 90% sure that this bit from the first chapter is referencing Lift getting her first period, which I hadn't noticed before. 

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"Is this about what happened to you?" Wyndle asked. "I don't know a lot about humans, but I believe it was natural, disconcerting though it might appear. You aren't wounded."

Not really sure what else that could be referencing, and it's immediately followed by Lift being upset that she's changing, so....

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6 hours ago, Terra of Roshar said:

No wider implications like the rest of the stuff on here, but I'm like 90% sure that this bit from the first chapter is referencing Lift getting her first period, which I hadn't noticed before. 

Not really sure what else that could be referencing, and it's immediately followed by Lift being upset that she's changing, so....

LOL I was wondering about that little bit and now that you say it, it makes perfect sense.

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Something I picked up on was that Nale said that the Parshmen were leftover Voidbringers from a past Desolation and that the Voidbringers couldn't make the jump to Roshar. Which makes me believe that as scary as the Stormform of the Parshendi is, there might be something worse coming.

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I'll point out that that was Nale's attempt to explain why there were Stormform Parshendi without it actually being a desolation, not an actual explanation of what was happening. In other words: a broken man's attempt to maintain his failing delusion which is being shattered by the eyewitness account of another broken man who saw the potential cause of the end of humanity. Note said second man was broken before the witnessing.

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I don't think that just because he is attempting to rationalize why it is not a Desolation doesn't mean that he's not correct in what he is saying. From the way I interpreted what Nale was saying, "in past Desolations Voidbringers made some kind of jump to Roshar, that has not happened yet, therefore not a Desolation". But this is a Desolation, we know that (and Nale knows it now too). The issue that I see is that the Parshendi are native to Roshar, more native than humans are. There is no reason they would need to make any kind of "jump" to Roshar, they are already on it. So what is Nale referring to? What has made a jump to Roshar in the past that has caused previous Desolations, but has not done so now, and why?

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Okay. This post was coming off of my first read of Edgedancer, so I must have glossed over that part and just focused on the whole idea of Voidbringers "jumping." It would make sense then that Voidspren would have to jump from Braize (most likely) to Roshar. Though I have to admit I was imagining the Thunderclasts "jumping" over, but after doing some research on the Coppermind, I think they are native to Roshar as well.

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Well, what happens when local fauna bond voidspren? I am really excited about the idea of void-chasmfiends.

I am also fairly certain that only the spren make the jump to Roshar. The biggest problem for them would be the transition from the Cognitive to the Physical Realm, plus limitations caused by the Oathpact. After all, we haven't seen conventional spacetravel in the Cosmere, yet.

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16 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I am also fairly certain that only the spren make the jump to Roshar. The biggest problem for them would be the transition from the Cognitive to the Physical Realm, plus limitations caused by the Oathpact. After all, we haven't seen conventional spacetravel in the Cosmere, yet.

I feel like a lot of spren don't transition from Shadesmare to the Physical Realm. Sure, they can manifest to some degree so that they're visible and can interact with people, but true transition, which we've principally seen as spren turning into shardblades, probably doesn't happen.

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8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I feel like a lot of spren don't transition from Shadesmare to the Physical Realm. Sure, they can manifest to some degree so that they're visible and can interact with people, but true transition, which we've principally seen as spren turning into shardblades, probably doesn't happen.

Thats possible. Spren seem to coexist in Shadesmar and the Physical Realm. But also Parshendi seem to be closer to the CR, indicated how they percieve approaching spren. So a bond with a voidspren gives a warform to the Parshendi (what's singular form for Parshendi?), brings him/himen/heren/her at least partially under Odium's control and perhaps brings the spren to the physical realm, not necessarily 100%, but more than before. Either way, the spren can affect the physical realm with their bonds to (mainly) physical creatures, so that would be the "jump".

Travel in Shadesmar should be easy for spren, at least in the local system. Worldhopping might be hindered by problems with Connection to the System the Shard invested in. So the real obstacle for a jump from Braize(assumed) to Roshar would be entering or partially entering the physical realm. I think, the Parshendi song summoning the Everstorm created some kind of bridge from the CR to the PR, enabling many voidspren to (partially) enter Roshar, where they now seek to bond Parshmen to get even more influence (Parshendi who already have a spren, providing a non-warform, might be more resistant to new bonds, the "right" mindset was required for Eshonai to bond the stormspren after all.)

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