Oathbringer at 100%

[Kanrei]

@maxal I think you are overreaching. You know that Adolin killed Sadeas and now you interpret every clue to reach that conclusion.

But I see no reason for someone without our knowledge what did happen to immediately suspect Prince Adolin.
What someone without knowledge would see is just body and that something was removed from wall, he wouldnt even know what.

Spot with removed things on wall can be anything in that case for investigator - it might be makings of one of scouting parties (not necessary Adolin's one as there were many), it could be some unknown marking for secret meeting of unknown people. Sadeas could stumble onto that secret meeting and got killed because of that (its as liekely as assumption that Highprince son killed him).

Adolin's look and clothing - its hard to say if it was as perfect as you assume to begin with.
He could have his battle cloths still. A lot of basic stuff was lost when armies ported from Shattered Plains.
With some taking care its possible that no one would notice anything strange about Adolin's clothing or look because again, why would investigator make him first suspect?
And there is big change that Adolin can manage change cloths long before Sadeas body is discovered without being noticed.

Knife - I find your assumption extremely unlikely - it just dont add up that Adolin would think about shirt cuffs, Oathbringer and markings on wall (which shows that his mental abilities wernt that limited as you might think) and ignore most obvious thing, actually only thing which could tie him directly to murder.
Adolin isnt stupid, and he would need to be extremely stupid to leave knife behind. More pleasurable assumption is that he retrieved knife and taken with himself.

So then as I see it, there are no direct ties to Adolin.
Who ever will investigate has rly no reason to suspect Adolin himself - House of Kholin might be suspect because of history with Sadeas but it more rational for investigator to assume that assassin was hired, then that Highprince's son killed Sadeas himself.

So unless Renarian or Shallan can provide some Radiant based help to investigation I dont see why someone should first connect Adolin to it.
I think that investigation itself will be stuck because of lack of hard evidence but there will be other repercussions.
As repercussions of Sadeas' death we might see his wife attacking House of Kholin - she will probably assume that House of Kholin was behind of murder as her assasins tried murder Dalinar before.

[DrakeMarshall]

I was reading the latest update on Sanderson's work...

Looking at his entry at dragonsteel *cough Rothfuss cough*

[soyperson]

Just now, Drake Marshall said:

I was reading the latest update on Sanderson's work...

Looking at his entry at dragonsteel *cough Rothfuss cough*

Oh shoot boutta sneeze

ah 

ah

ah

Martin

[maxal]

11 hours ago, Yata said:

@maxal you have probably right...probably the only way for Adolin to be not catched is to exploit the Highprince's division and the caos of moving the Warcamps to Urithuru created. There will be tons of anomalies in that days, almost everything is an anomaly.

PS: I never see your face and I know you are a girl, but for a while this will be my mental image of yourself:

  Hide contents

https://goo.gl/images/U3oanx

 

 Good one. For a while, I was afraid of what I'd uncover under this spoiler tag. I do believe a good investigation would lead on to Adolin.

10 hours ago, Kanrei said:

@maxal I think you are overreaching. You know that Adolin killed Sadeas and now you interpret every clue to reach that conclusion.

But I see no reason for someone without our knowledge what did happen to immediately suspect Prince Adolin.
What someone without knowledge would see is just body and that something was removed from wall, he wouldnt even know what.

Spot with removed things on wall can be anything in that case for investigator - it might be makings of one of scouting parties (not necessary Adolin's one as there were many), it could be some unknown marking for secret meeting of unknown people. Sadeas could stumble onto that secret meeting and got killed because of that (its as liekely as assumption that Highprince son killed him).

Adolin's look and clothing - its hard to say if it was as perfect as you assume to begin with.
He could have his battle cloths still. A lot of basic stuff was lost when armies ported from Shattered Plains.
With some taking care its possible that no one would notice anything strange about Adolin's clothing or look because again, why would investigator make him first suspect?
And there is big change that Adolin can manage change cloths long before Sadeas body is discovered without being noticed.

Knife - I find your assumption extremely unlikely - it just dont add up that Adolin would think about shirt cuffs, Oathbringer and markings on wall (which shows that his mental abilities wernt that limited as you might think) and ignore most obvious thing, actually only thing which could tie him directly to murder.
Adolin isnt stupid, and he would need to be extremely stupid to leave knife behind. More pleasurable assumption is that he retrieved knife and taken with himself.

So then as I see it, there are no direct ties to Adolin.
Who ever will investigate has rly no reason to suspect Adolin himself - House of Kholin might be suspect because of history with Sadeas but it more rational for investigator to assume that assassin was hired, then that Highprince's son killed Sadeas himself.

So unless Renarian or Shallan can provide some Radiant based help to investigation I dont see why someone should first connect Adolin to it.
I think that investigation itself will be stuck because of lack of hard evidence but there will be other repercussions.
As repercussions of Sadeas' death we might see his wife attacking House of Kholin - she will probably assume that House of Kholin was behind of murder as her assasins tried murder Dalinar before.

Nobody would immediately suspect Adolin, I do agree, but I do think a thorough investigation would lead to him as the prime suspect. A good investigator would make the link in between the erased mark on the wall and the ones the scouting parties have been making all over the place. It isn't such a terribly difficult link to make: the Shardblade marks are probably obvious to a careful examination which would lead whoever is investigating to wonder why they were made in the first place. What was there to hide? It wouldn't take long to figure out the murderer had to have been hiding among the scouting parties. Once you make this link, it merely is a matter of figuring out whom could have done it and Prince Adolin has been wandering alone within the right vicinity... If they add this knowledge to Adolin's discarded uniform, then they will start to have a clear portray. Sadeas was murdered five days after their arrival, after their things have been shipped: no doubt Adolin had change his clothes since then.

Unless they find the knife, I do agree the evidences aren't enough to convict him, not unless he confesses, not without a witness, but they are enough to raise suspicions which are likely to be enough for Adolin to speak up, to Dalinar at the very least.

Leaving the knife behind would indeed be stupid, but Adolin wasn't exactly within a right state of mind. His last POV speaks of a daze, of confusion: I would argue he was in shock and thus not thinking straight. It is thus I wouldn't be surprised he completely forgot about the knife, not because he is stupid, but because his mind has snapped. He isn't mentally capable to think of all ramifications, not in this scene, if he had, he wouldn't have killed Sadeas.

This being said, I do think the investigation will lead on to Adolin quite rapidly, that or he'll confess. Either way, I do think this story arc won't take up significant page time. It'll be over by the end of Part 1. There might be ramifications afterwards but we will know Adolin's fate early on.

[DrakeMarshall]

In truth, I suspect Adolin would be a suspect, but I have some doubts that he would ever be more than that.

He would be a suspect simply because he has an obvious motive to want Sadeas dead, and no proper alibi whatsoever. This alone puts him pretty far up on the list of suspects, although there are certainly others who would be on the list with him.

But it is unlikely that anybody would dare publicly accuse the third in line to the throne of Alethkar without incontrovertible evidence.

There may be additional evidence which could potentially implicate Adolin, but I somewhat doubt the quality of forensics on Roshar... They probably can't find anything to properly nail him down for the murder.

The only way I can forsee him being publicly found guilty of murder is if he admits it to someone / is overheard admitting it to someone who wouldn't turn him in.

Which brings up another interesting topic. Because I would be somewhat surprised if Dalinar does not directly ask Adolin if he killed Sadeas in Oathbringer.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

I was reading the latest update on Sanderson's work...

Looking at his entry at dragonsteel *cough Rothfuss cough*

10 years. 10 long, storming years. That last line is hilarious. Very well done.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

In truth, I suspect Adolin would be a suspect, but I have some doubts that he would ever be more than that.

He would be a suspect simply because he has an obvious motive to want Sadeas dead, and no proper alibi whatsoever. This alone puts him pretty far up on the list of suspects, although there are certainly others who would be on the list with him.

But it is unlikely that anybody would dare publicly accuse the third in line to the throne of Alethkar without incontrovertible evidence.

There may be additional evidence which could potentially implicate Adolin, but I somewhat doubt the quality of forensics on Roshar... They probably can't find anything to properly nail him down for the murder.

The only way I can forsee him being publicly found guilty of murder is if he admits it to someone / is overheard admitting it to someone who wouldn't turn him in.

Which brings up another interesting topic. Because I would be somewhat surprised if Dalinar does not directly ask Adolin if he killed Sadeas in Oathbringer.

Oh I agree that, unless he left his knife and it has "Adolin Kholin" engraved on it, they are unlikely to find indisputable proof Adolin did it. I also agree anyone would be extremely wary to publicly accuse Dalinar Kholin's heir and the king's champion to boot it all. We all saw with Sadeas's betrayal knowing someone betrayed the law is useless unless you either have definite proofs (such as a confession) or the intention to launch a civil war.

Whispers and hearsay might however make it to Dalinar's ears which would be enough for him to question his son. Providing this happens, I daresay Adolin will not be able to lie.

They could also try to do their own justice by removing the troublesome son. Adolin angered a lot of people... I bet a lot of people want him gone, gone. I would be surprised if no attempts on Adolin's life were made.

[DrakeMarshall]

19 hours ago, maxal said:

Oh I agree that, unless he left his knife and it has "Adolin Kholin" engraved on it, they are unlikely to find indisputable proof Adolin did it. I also agree anyone would be extremely wary to publicly accuse Dalinar Kholin's heir and the king's champion to boot it all. We all saw with Sadeas's betrayal knowing someone betrayed the law is useless unless you either have definite proofs (such as a confession) or the intention to launch a civil war.

Whispers and hearsay might however make it to Dalinar's ears which would be enough for him to question his son. Providing this happens, I daresay Adolin will not be able to lie.

They could also try to do their own justice by removing the troublesome son. Adolin angered a lot of people... I bet a lot of people want him gone, gone. I would be surprised if no attempts on Adolin's life were made.

There will be quite an interesting conversation between Dalinar and Adolin on the horizon I think, yes... I have a hard time picturing Adolin lying to Dalinar, or Dalinar being convinced if Adolin did lie...

And yes, there will be attempts on Adolin's life. Plenty of people want him dead.

For what its worth though, the Kholin house is the only known group to survive (multiple) assassination attempts from the assassin in white... I know Kaladin will be away for at least a small time at the beginning of Oathbringer... But still, the closest people to Adolin will be a bunch of trained bodyguard Windrunner squires, Dalinar with surgebinding powers, Shallan with surgebinding powers, and Renarin with surgebinding powers (including regrowth in case Adolin is poisoned...). I do not believe the attempts will succeed.

If Adolin dies, I suspect it will be at the hands of a voidbringer or some other creature of Odium, on the field of battle.

[soyperson]

1 minute ago, Drake Marshall said:

If Adolin dies, I suspect it will be at the hands of a voidbringer or some other creature of Odium, on the field of battle.

Probably only after some great development of him and Shallan, and  a very noble act, making us love him more before Brandon tears him away from us.

Perhaps, then, if Braize really is the afterlife, we'd get a look at it from Adolin's POV?

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

There will be quite an interesting conversation between Dalinar and Adolin on the horizon I think, yes... I have a hard time picturing Adolin lying to Dalinar, or Dalinar being convinced if Adolin did lie...

And yes, there will be attempts on Adolin's life. Plenty of people want him dead.

For what its worth though, the Kholin house is the only known group to survive (multiple) assassination attempts from the assassin in white... I know Kaladin will be away for at least a small time at the beginning of Oathbringer... But still, the closest people to Adolin will be a bunch of trained bodyguard Windrunner squires, Dalinar with surgebinding powers, Shallan with surgebinding powers, and Renarin with surgebinding powers (including regrowth in case Adolin is poisoned...). I do not believe the attempts will succeed.

If Adolin dies, I suspect it will be at the hands of a voidbringer or some other creature of Odium, on the field of battle.

I so want to read this conversation... Adolin lying would not go down in plausible way, I think. I picture him starring at his feet and endlessly babbling about what he has been up to apart from killing Sadeas while Dalinar crooks an eyebrow, not buying the act. Everyone knows when Adolin starts to look down at the floor is when he is uncomfortable and/or he has something to hide.

Too many people want Adolin dead. I do expect at least one poisoning attempt and one trapped in the corner one, though not in the dueling arena, but I could see thugs rounding on him in some cloistered small room where his Blade would be useless. I doubt we are going to read Adolin dueling again.

Adolin almost always alone: neither Dalinar nor Renarin nor Shallan are with him at all times. He goes to battle without the support of Radiants, he deals with the army all day long, all by himself: his only protection are his guards and they would be pretty useless against a poisoned glass of wine. He is also known to be reckless and impulsive: he can easily be goat into taking dangerous risks. He is an easy prey. Sadeas knew it. Ialai knows it. They haven't got to him because they haven't want to go down this way, not just yet.

I wonder if regrowth could cure poisoning... I always thought, if Adolin is poisoned, it would be Shallan who'd save him by managing the soulcasting Jasnah did on her when she was poisoned. As for dying on the battlefield, well, I always thought this is where Renarin would save Adolin. After all, we do have this death rattle where a brother stands over the bloody body of a brother... Always wondered if it referred to Renarin standing over Adolin. Come to think of it, ever since I have learned Renarin had the surge of Progression, I have thought he'd end up saving Adolin's life at some point.

1 hour ago, bleeder said:

Probably only after some great development of him and Shallan, and  a very noble act, making us love him more before Brandon tears him away from us.

Perhaps, then, if Braize really is the afterlife, we'd get a look at it from Adolin's POV?

Doesn't seem to be Brandon's writing style... He doesn't kill to draw tears or to make an impression: he kills if it is the next logical step for this specific character growth unless this character is minor is needs to die for other to advance. I thus think Adolin is pretty safe for the next book, at least.

[soyperson]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

After all, we do have this death rattle where a brother stands over the bloody body of a brother... Always wondered if it referred to Renarin standing over Adolin. Come to think of it, ever since I have learned Renarin had the surge of Progression, I have thought he'd end up saving Adolin's life at some point.

I... I always took that to mean Kal and Tien.

But I like your interpretation better.

[maxal]

59 minutes ago, bleeder said:

I... I always took that to mean Kal and Tien.

But I like your interpretation better.

Oh I guess it could be... It might be I sheepishly wished one of those rattles didn't refer to Kaladin. 

[DrakeMarshall]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

I wonder if regrowth could cure poisoning... I always thought, if Adolin is poisoned, it would be Shallan who'd save him by managing the soulcasting Jasnah did on her when she was poisoned.

I suspect that regrowth would very easily cure poison. Stormlight healing is very effective. It even cures nonlethal shardblade cuts, which implies that it can heal cognitive and quite probably spiritual injuries, like gold feruchemy is capable of. Also may I note that gold feruchemy at least is confirmed to cure poisoning because Wayne was able to drink a lot and use gold to not get intoxicated.

That soulcasting trick seems terrifically dangerous; I would imagine regrowth is the preferable way to deal with poison.

18 hours ago, maxal said:

Doesn't seem to be Brandon's writing style... He doesn't kill to draw tears or to make an impression: he kills if it is the next logical step for this specific character growth unless this character is minor is needs to die for other to advance. I thus think Adolin is pretty safe for the next book, at least.

Oh I think it is definitely fair to say that Sanderson doesn't go out of his way to kill characters to draw tears or make an impression... But storm it, if the end of HoA didn't make an impression on you I'm not sure what would.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Siaun Sanche]

On 12/21/2016 at 10:33 PM, maxal said:

Oh I agree that, unless he left his knife and it has "Adolin Kholin" engraved on it, they are unlikely to find indisputable proof Adolin did it. I also agree anyone would be extremely wary to publicly accuse Dalinar Kholin's heir and the king's champion to boot it all. We all saw with Sadeas's betrayal knowing someone betrayed the law is useless unless you either have definite proofs (such as a confession) or the intention to launch a civil war.

Whispers and hearsay might however make it to Dalinar's ears which would be enough for him to question his son. Providing this happens, I daresay Adolin will not be able to lie.

I tend to agree with your assessment, which makes me think... if everybody believes that Adolin is the killer, and (more to the point) if Dalinar himself believes it, doesn't Dalinar have to take action? It seems to me that his conscience would demand it, and how could he rally the other Highprinces if he's willing to turn a blind eye when one of their number gets murdered?

[manukos]

This also raises the question why didn't he dispose the body , throwing it over the cliff like he did with the sword ....

which come to think of it is named ....OATHBRINGER 

Edited January 1, 2017 by harambe

[maxal]

19 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I tend to agree with your assessment, which makes me think... if everybody believes that Adolin is the killer, and (more to the point) if Dalinar himself believes it, doesn't Dalinar have to take action? It seems to me that his conscience would demand it, and how could he rally the other Highprinces if he's willing to turn a blind eye when one of their number gets murdered?

This is a tricky question... My current reading of Dalinar tells me he would feel forced to act if only to maintain the pretense he is obeying to the Way of Kings. I also feel Dalinar might go overboard and might go too hard on Adolin than his code really dictates him to be. Adolin certainly deserves to be punished, but I sincerely worry as to how harsh Dalinar will feel obligated to be on him.

I also feel Dalinar would need to make an example out of Adolin if he is to maintain his upper hand over the Highprince. Considering he now is a Radiant, he might need it more than ever. Alternatively, going too hard on his son, might also alienated some of the Highprinces as who would wish to follow the man ready to throw his own son under the bush for the live of a traitor?

Either way, I do not envy Dalinar right now: he has hard decisions to make.

19 minutes ago, harambe said:

This also raises the question why didn't he dispose the body , throwing it over the cliff like he did with the sword ....

which come to think of it is named ....OATHBRINGER 

I don't know if this is relevant but it is a possibility that it ties in with the title of the book

It is relevant. We find out in Oathbringer why the sword is named... Oathbringer. As for tossing the body around, I think it is safe to assume Adolin is in shock. He is't exactly thinking straight.

[Lord_of_Awesome]

On 1/1/2017 at 4:57 PM, maxal said:

This is a tricky question... My current reading of Dalinar tells me he would feel forced to act if only to maintain the pretense he is obeying to the Way of Kings. I also feel Dalinar might go overboard and might go too hard on Adolin than his code really dictates him to be. Adolin certainly deserves to be punished, but I sincerely worry as to how harsh Dalinar will feel obligated to be on him.

I also feel Dalinar would need to make an example out of Adolin if he is to maintain his upper hand over the Highprince. Considering he now is a Radiant, he might need it more than ever. Alternatively, going too hard on his son, might also alienated some of the Highprinces as who would wish to follow the man ready to throw his own son under the bush for the live of a traitor?

Either way, I do not envy Dalinar right now: he has hard decisions to make.

It is relevant. We find out in Oathbringer why the sword is named... Oathbringer. As for tossing the body around, I think it is safe to assume Adolin is in shock. He is't exactly thinking straight.

What if... what if the Alethi blamed Kaladin instead? Sadeas was killed before Kaladin flew away (which could be suspicious) and Kaladin's motives for the murder could be revenge for the bridgemen...

Shoot this theory full of holes if you want...

Edited January 5, 2017 by Lord_of_Awesome

[stonedshaman]

Is it possible adolin tells Shallan and she covers for him.  I mean lieing is basically her bread and butter at this point.  That being said even if it did play out this way I still see Adolin comming forward eventually and admitting the truth.

 

Also another idea that just popped into my head:  is it possible now that Shallan has admitted a deep dark truth to pattern, that she now gains enough control of her lightweaving to recreate the whole scene between adolin and sadeas with stormlight and reason(see detective work)  I feel that could make for an interesting scene; Shallan eager to use her stormlight in a new way and find a killer only to see that it was adolin 

Edited January 5, 2017 by stonedshaman
more musings

[Yata]

56 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

Also another idea that just popped into my head:  is it possible now that Shallan has admitted a deep dark truth to pattern, that she now gains enough control of her lightweaving to recreate the whole scene between adolin and sadeas with stormlight and reason(see detective work)  I feel that could make for an interesting scene; Shallan eager to use her stormlight in a new way and find a killer only to see that it was adolin 

She is the Illusion's source, She can't create something unknown to her...

[Krandacth]

31 minutes ago, Yata said:

She is the Illusion's source, She can't create something unknown to her...

This is explicitly not true, based on her drawing of Shallash (and maybe of Yalb, etc.) when in that miniature lait on the way to the Shattered Plains.

I like the idea that Shallan will eventually release the perception that she must first draw a thing before she can Lightweave it (which Pattern has stated is a peculiarity of her Lightweaving, not a requirement of the surge).  The combination of her "thoughtless doodle" farsight/foresight/whatever and her direct Lightweaving would be as @stonedshaman has described.

However, I don't think this progression (being able to Lightweave without first drawing) will be tied to one of the 4 oath-like truths all Lightweavers must speak. This is because the limitation is not a thing of all Lightweavers. I assume this will be the foundation for some very Shallan-specific development.

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Lord_of_Awesome said:

What if... what if the Alethi blamed Kaladin instead? Sadeas was killed before Kaladin flew away (which could be suspicious) and Kaladin's motives for the murder could be revenge for the bridgemen...

Shoot this theory full of holes if you want...

Kaladin is acquainted for at the time of the murder: he was standing at the top of the Tower with the other Radiants. After that, he went to prepare his gear, presumably with the bridgemen. Kaladin cannot be blamed: he just never had the opportunity and he was never in the vicinity of the crime scene.

2 hours ago, stonedshaman said:

Is it possible adolin tells Shallan and she covers for him.  I mean lieing is basically her bread and butter at this point.  That being said even if it did play out this way I still see Adolin comming forward eventually and admitting the truth.

We have discussed on several occasions how Shallan might react upon finding out Adolin has murdered Sadeas. We seem to be split onto the issues as some of us think she shouldn't react too badly considering what she did herself, but others feel it might make her scared of Adolin by having her think he might bear a resemblance to her father.

While I think Adolin might end up being the end game for Shallan, I do think these two will split up going into the next book. I do think Shallan will misjudged most of Adolin's actions and take him for someone he is not ending up in her not wanting to be engaged to her. If real feelings she has for him, I hope the ordeal Adolin will have to go through will be sufficient for her to realize them, if not... I have to say knowing we have the Kaladin and Tarah flashbacks in book 3 does seem to imply she and Shallan will be an item by the end of it.

All this to say, I doubt she would lie for him. I think Adolin will find himself quite alone going into the next book.