Ted aka WinespringBrother Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 We know little so far about Rall Elorim, except that it has a reputation that goes unspoken by Lift. It has an interesting nickname, The City of Shadows, but while it sounds descriptive, it also sounds incomplete. However, considering the reveals about Heralds and souls and cognitive shadows from the 12/05/2016 Chicago signing, I think that the nickname should actually be The City of Cognitive Shadows, which ties in the in-universe meaning of Shadows. So, what would give the city this nickname? Perhaps the city is populated in Shadesmar, and there are bleedovers from the cognitive realm into the physical realm. Perhaps Lift was able to interact with whatever is in the Shadesmar area of Rall Elorim and didn't care for that, explaining why she left. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted December 8, 2016 Report Share Posted December 8, 2016 On a related note, I have wondered what the effect of the Nahel bond is for people, after they are dead. Are those shadows of ordinary people, or shadows of Knights Radiant, or more interestingly, Knights Radiant who broke their oaths in the Recreace? Brandon has repeatedly said that in order to bring the dead shardblades back, you would need the original person. Is the original cognitive shadow enough? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 Actually he's said that the easiest way to revive a dead spren would be for the original Radiant to reswear the Oaths, not that it's the only way. I think the only difference between 'dead person', 'dead forsworn Radiant' and 'dead Radiant' as far as their cognitive shadow goes would be how long they could persist after death before being called Beyond. I imagine there's a sliding scale depending on how far along you are in swearing the Ideals but it probably wouldn't be a huge effect. From what we've seen, you need to be a Sliver or have some Shardic weirdness going on for your cognitive shadow to last more than a few minutes. The spren wouldn't die in the process because we know that they aren't 'killed' if their Radiant dies, just if they break their oaths. So they'd lose their connection to the Physical and have to form a new Nahel Bond to regain it (and I'm pretty sure it's been described as traumatic for them, somewhere) but they wouldn't suffer any long-term effects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 4 hours ago, Weltall said: From what we've seen, you need to be a Sliver or have some Shardic weirdness going on for your cognitive shadow to last more than a few minutes. Well, on Scadrial, sure. Not on Threnody... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 5 hours ago, Weltall said: Actually he's said that the easiest way to revive a dead spren would be for the original Radiant to reswear the Oaths, not that it's the only way. I think the only difference between 'dead person', 'dead forsworn Radiant' and 'dead Radiant' as far as their cognitive shadow goes would be how long they could persist after death before being called Beyond. I imagine there's a sliding scale depending on how far along you are in swearing the Ideals but it probably wouldn't be a huge effect. From what we've seen, you need to be a Sliver or have some Shardic weirdness going on for your cognitive shadow to last more than a few minutes. The spren wouldn't die in the process because we know that they aren't 'killed' if their Radiant dies, just if they break their oaths. So they'd lose their connection to the Physical and have to form a new Nahel Bond to regain it (and I'm pretty sure it's been described as traumatic for them, somewhere) but they wouldn't suffer any long-term effects. Hmm, that makes me wonder how the process of passing to the Beyond looks on Roshar. Obviously Honor isn't meeting people on the way, but his Cognitive Shadow (the Stormfather) perhaps could, or Cultivation (or Odium, but I expect that would be tougher for him, and he wouldn't care except to torture people). Does a Radiant's spren get to meet them before they pass on, in Shadesmar? It wouldn't necessarily be a new experience to meet them there, depending on the order, but that would make for a rather bittersweet farewell scene. I kinda want to see that in one of the books now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 58 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: Well, on Scadrial, sure. Not on Threnody... Threnody is a prime example of 'Shardic weirdness', it just wasn't intentional. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 14 minutes ago, Weltall said: Threnody is a prime example of 'Shardic weirdness', it just wasn't intentional. Do we know that? I interpreted it as Threnody being weird about cognitive shadows because of the way the planet was created, like Roshar's original pre-Shattering spren, and the Evil being 'Shardic weirdness' (corrupted bits of Ambition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: On a related note, I have wondered what the effect of the Nahel bond is for people, after they are dead. Are those shadows of ordinary people, or shadows of Knights Radiant, or more interestingly, Knights Radiant who broke their oaths in the Recreace? Brandon has repeatedly said that in order to bring the dead shardblades back, you would need the original person. Is the original cognitive shadow enough? Well. I imagine it would certainly be more difficult for a cognitive shadow. Maybe possible, maybe not. What I wonder more about though is what happens to a bonded spren when their knight dies, but doesn't break their oaths? I am inclined to think that such a spren is not killed... Are they free to make another nahel bond with a new radiant? Does their bond maybe make them sapient enough to pass into the afterlife with their bonded radiant? Hard to say what happens... 1 hour ago, Jondesu said: Hmm, that makes me wonder how the process of passing to the Beyond looks on Roshar. Obviously Honor isn't meeting people on the way, but his Cognitive Shadow (the Stormfather) perhaps could, or Cultivation (or Odium, but I expect that would be tougher for him, and he wouldn't care except to torture people). Does a Radiant's spren get to meet them before they pass on, in Shadesmar? It wouldn't necessarily be a new experience to meet them there, depending on the order, but that would make for a rather bittersweet farewell scene. I kinda want to see that in one of the books now. Yes, there's a rather fascinating theory about this. There are some pretty good reasons to believe that Odium (or unmade) actually is meeting people on the way to the beyond... And keeping them from properly entering the afterlife for some reason (torture may well factor into it, but I doubt it is the sole reason). I imagine that if Odium is defeated, all the people who are being withheld from the afterlife would be able to pass on normally. The Vorin teachings on the tranquilline halls may have some truth in them... Anyway... In regard to the OP... I like your idea that Rall Elorim is a spren city as well as a human city. It might well be... Although, actually... If land is sea and sea is land in the cognitive realm, wouldn't all the spren cities by on the ocean? Edited December 9, 2016 by Drake Marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted aka WinespringBrother Posted December 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 6 hours ago, Drake Marshall said: Well. I imagine it would certainly be more difficult for a cognitive shadow. Maybe possible, maybe not. What I wonder more about though is what happens to a bonded spren when their knight dies, but doesn't break their oaths? I am inclined to think that such a spren is not killed... Are they free to make another nahel bond with a new radiant? Does their bond maybe make them sapient enough to pass into the afterlife with their bonded radiant? Hard to say what happens... Yes, there's a rather fascinating theory about this. There are some pretty good reasons to believe that Odium (or unmade) actually is meeting people on the way to the beyond... And keeping them from properly entering the afterlife for some reason (torture may well factor into it, but I doubt it is the sole reason). I imagine that if Odium is defeated, all the people who are being withheld from the afterlife would be able to pass on normally. The Vorin teachings on the tranquilline halls may have some truth in them... Anyway... In regard to the OP... I like your idea that Rall Elorim is a spren city as well as a human city. It might well be... Although, actually... If land is sea and sea is land in the cognitive realm, wouldn't all the spren cities by on the ocean? That makes sense, but I don't know if that is an impediment to spren. One thing I just noticed when looking at the Shadesmar map is that Rall Elorim is on the cusp of the Nexus of Transition and the Nexus of Truth, and maybe that is more important to the spren. Those are interesting names. Transition could imply the path to the beyond or maybe it could be alluding to soulcasting/transformation, and Truth could imply that there are cryptics there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 I will need to read AU before I can make intelligent commentary on what you just said. But yes, it is possible that solid ground is no impediment for spren. Maybe it even depends on the kind of spren... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Do we know that? I interpreted it as Threnody being weird about cognitive shadows because of the way the planet was created, like Roshar's original pre-Shattering spren, and the Evil being 'Shardic weirdness' (corrupted bits of Ambition). I think we do, but I admit it's a matter of inferences. We know that the fight between Odium and Ambition happened very soon after the Shattering and we have WoB that Shadows for Silence is a 'later' work, so 'the Evil' forcing everyone out of Homeland is a recent thing (relatively speaking) and from Khriss' description of how quickly everyone fled, it's likely that it wasn't a major concern (or apparent at all) for a long time and then suddenly, there it was. Nazh knows something about it according to the essay, suggesting he was on Threnody close to when it happened. Nazh also talks about 'deciding to become a Shade' in the present tense, as if it's something true within living memory, so I think he's talking about something that was possible after Ambition's power messed things up but maybe before 'the Evil' completely forced his people from Homeland and they might have forgotten things about the shades that they once knew. I don't think he would use the sort of emphatic language he did if he was remembering something that used to be the case hundreds or thousands of years ago. Either way, I'm pretty sure he was born long after Ambition's power did weird things to Threnody so it's hard to untangle what might have been there pre-Shattering. But on that point as well, pre-Shardic Investiture has generally been described as part of the natural environment rather than something humans directly control (it affects the Aviar on First of the Sun, it's in the bacteria on Ashyn apparently) so it would be kind of funny for Threnody to break the pattern by having directly Invested humans pre-Shattering. So yeah, I think that everything to do with the shades can be traced back to Ambition's power corrupting things but not before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 @WeltallI'm questionable on that though, because while it makes sense that a Shard's power would do things like that to the environment, Brandon has described the phenomenon of shades as being non-shard based. Also, another way to look at what Nazh says is that being a shade was always possible, but something happened to make to the Shades more violent possibly Evil, though apparently that isn't related to a shard either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 10, 2016 Report Share Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: Also, another way to look at what Nazh says is that being a shade was always possible, but something happened to make to the Shades more violent possibly Evil, though apparently that isn't related to a shard either. That's how I read it. Nazh talks about becoming a Cognitive Shadow as an important rite, which implies it's something that's well-known enough to become part of the culture (not something only worldhoppers know about). The Stormfather and Kelsier seem to be extreme exceptions on their worlds; Cognitive Shadows aren't known things there. So I think Cognitive Shadows were always way more easily created on Threnody, and only the "contagious/hyperaggressive" aspect is new. 10 hours ago, Weltall said: Nazh knows something about it according to the essay, suggesting he was on Threnody close to when it happened. Nazh also talks about 'deciding to become a Shade' in the present tense, as if it's something true within living memory, so I think he's talking about something that was possible after Ambition's power messed things up but maybe before 'the Evil' completely forced his people from Homeland and they might have forgotten things about the shades that they once knew. Do we have any idea when Nazh left Threnody beyond "before Mistborn Era 1" though? Given that worldhoppers don't seem to die of old age, I'm not sure we can rule out his memories of Threnody being of a very early period. Edited December 10, 2016 by cometaryorbit Nazh's timeline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sallin Zeras Posted December 10, 2016 Report Share Posted December 10, 2016 23 hours ago, Jondesu said: Hmm, that makes me wonder how the process of passing to the Beyond looks on Roshar. Obviously Honor isn't meeting people on the way, but his Cognitive Shadow (the Stormfather) perhaps could, or Cultivation (or Odium, but I expect that would be tougher for him, and he wouldn't care except to torture people). Does a Radiant's spren get to meet them before they pass on, in Shadesmar? It wouldn't necessarily be a new experience to meet them there, depending on the order, but that would make for a rather bittersweet farewell scene. I kinda want to see that in one of the books now. Maybe its like seons on Sel, who knows, but I'm sure we'll see it in the books sooner or later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 21 hours ago, Talanelat'Elin Stonesinew said: Who knows, but I'm sure we'll see it in the books sooner or later Ugh. The story of all of our lives :-P This comment literally sums up every forum thread on here! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 Is a Cognitive Shadow different from a soul? If my Cognitive Shadow did something, then did I do it, or just my ghost clone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarevok Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 5 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: Is a Cognitive Shadow different from a soul? If my Cognitive Shadow did something, then did I do it, or just my ghost clone? That really depends on how you define "you". If "you" is "your body", then no, because if your cognitive shadow does something, then by definition the body is dead. If "you" is the cognitive aspect of you that still retains all your memories, desires etc. then yes, "you" did it. The Soul is the part of you that resides on the Spiritual Realm and as I interpret it, the soul is probably still connected to the Cognitive Shadow after the body dies, so if "you" is whatever part of you is connected to your soul, then also yes, it's still "you". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) If Rall Ellorim is a city of spren, then Axies must truly love the place. Edited December 11, 2016 by Chull #445 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 8 hours ago, Sarevok said: That really depends on how you define "you". If "you" is "your body", then no, because if your cognitive shadow does something, then by definition the body is dead. If "you" is the cognitive aspect of you that still retains all your memories, desires etc. then yes, "you" did it. The Soul is the part of you that resides on the Spiritual Realm and as I interpret it, the soul is probably still connected to the Cognitive Shadow after the body dies, so if "you" is whatever part of you is connected to your soul, then also yes, it's still "you". So... I thought something similar once... But I'm pretty sure there's a WoB out there that states that a cognitive shadow is not connected to the bit in the spiritual realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 19 hours ago, Sarevok said: That really depends on how you define "you". If "you" is "your body", then no, because if your cognitive shadow does something, then by definition the body is dead. If "you" is the cognitive aspect of you that still retains all your memories, desires etc. then yes, "you" did it. The Soul is the part of you that resides on the Spiritual Realm and as I interpret it, the soul is probably still connected to the Cognitive Shadow after the body dies, so if "you" is whatever part of you is connected to your soul, then also yes, it's still "you". Thanks for the clarification. In that case, I have to expect that Rall Elorim is inhabited with either ordinary dead Radiants, or those Radiants in the Recreance. You only (?) become a cognitive shadow if you have sufficient investiture. The primary people we know about that fit that catagory are all Radiants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletSabre Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 On 09/12/2016 at 5:42 AM, Jondesu said: Hmm, that makes me wonder how the process of passing to the Beyond looks on Roshar. Obviously Honor isn't meeting people on the way, but his Cognitive Shadow (the Stormfather) perhaps could, or Cultivation (or Odium, but I expect that would be tougher for him, and he wouldn't care except to torture people). Does a Radiant's spren get to meet them before they pass on, in Shadesmar? It wouldn't necessarily be a new experience to meet them there, depending on the order, but that would make for a rather bittersweet farewell scene. I kinda want to see that in one of the books now. I'm still curious about that too, especially given that we see when Shallan is in Shadesmar and the lights of life in the PR start to wink out, there's no Cognitive Shadows popping into existence around her.... Still such a pity Brandon has said explicitly that he's not gonna mention anything about Roshar's afterlife for a long while -3- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 12 hours ago, Rawrbert said: I'm still curious about that too, especially given that we see when Shallan is in Shadesmar and the lights of life in the PR start to wink out, there's no Cognitive Shadows popping into existence around her.... Still such a pity Brandon has said explicitly that he's not gonna mention anything about Roshar's afterlife for a long while -3- And that suggests to me, that the Rosharan Afterlife is highly significent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted December 14, 2016 Report Share Posted December 14, 2016 According to the Coppermind, Rall Elorim is the largest city in Iri, so it would be strange for such a large city to be entirely in the Cognitive Realm or to be occupied by Cognitive Shadows or spren. However, we recently learned that the Iriali are not native to Roshar, and (see my thoughts here) because of their proximity to the Expanse of the Densities (possibly Nalthis), this city could have been their first place on Roshar after an exodus from there. If that was the case, then a city that sits partially or completely in the Cognitive Realm wouldn't be too crazy of an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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