What has Brandon done to the Earth?

[William Holz]

Hi everyone!  Forgive me if this has been discussed already, I couldn't find it in the recent discussions and while there were a couple that mentioned Earth in context I didn't see any that focused on how Earth is the possible/likely origin of all we see in the Cosmere. (Disclaimer, it's early and my Google-fu tends to improve as the day wears on)

Now, I'm pretty new to Sanderson's work but I LOVE the way he approaches things and while I'm quite definitely not a writer of his caliber, I sense a bit of a kindred spirit when it comes to world design.

And that has me wondering something...

Brandon has a habit that I particularly enjoy...create a world with a well thought out integrated rule system, fast forward a little bit, and then break the poor little dear and play in the wreckage. 

I was just reading the Arcanum Unbounded and one of his side notes on the origins of Hoid got me thinking a bit more seriously about how the Earth may be the seed of the Cosmere.  

I know it's been said that The Reckoners doesn't take place in the Cosmere, but I wonder if that's perhaps a bit of a red herring.  I could easily see a thought process that results in the destruction of the Earth in the Reckoners also creating the seeds for what eventually becomes the Cosmere.  Earth post-Calamity is in an interesting place and it appears there's room there for both a level of ascension and devastation that would either lead to travel into the eventual Cosmere or else (less likely?) cause the sort of change that causes our cluster to resemble what we see in the Cosmere.

Thinking back to the end of Calamity, Obliteration's continuing quest in particular seems to be the sort of thing that would potentially lead in exactly that direction.  

If, however, The Reckoners is completely unrelated, it seems to me that the origins of the Cosmere with respect to Earth are at least as interesting if not more so.  No matter how I look at it, it appears that Earth as we know it is destroyed and/or forgotten in the Cosmere and future humans are the origins of everything we.

Either way, it's Hoid's timeline that has me the most fascinated.  Not to get into Mr. Sanderson's head, but if I had gone through the same thought experiments he described in Arcanum Unbounded (mine are a bit different) then I would most definitely have created a timeline that has Hoid existing on Earth and living through that entire transition.  I could see him gaining his immortality as part of The Reckoners, or through another set of events...but regardless....it's got to be INTERESTING.

Anybody have any insights there? 

[king of nowhere]

Earth is not part of the cosmere. I think humankind originated on a planet called Yolen, before the shattering of adonalsium.

[FirstSelector]

Correct - this is why Rithmatist is not in the Cosmere either.  Brandon had originally planned it to be, but he didn't want Earth to have to fit into the Cosmere grand scheme, where Adonalsium created the first humans on Yolen.

[Pagerunner]

If Earth actually is in the cosmere, then Brandon is playing a very long con on us, since he has said otherwise. Another example is Adamant, a sci-fi novella he's working on and has read portions of at signings. There are a few Shakespear quotes, which he has said he'd have to remove if he wants to fit the story into the cosmere.

Yolen, the progenitor world of the cosmere and Hoid's home planet, is an earth analogue in many ways (planet size, wildlife, presence of humans), but also pretty fundamentally different (dragons, something called 'fain life'). It's the same for the universe as a whole; while it shares all of our physics, it also goes beyond that, introducing Realmatics and Investiture, so unlike many sci-fi or fantasty stories, it can't just be set in a different time or place in our own universe.

EDIT: Here's another quote from Brandon himself; it's the source for the Rithmatist example, which explains his logic.

Quote

Q: What came first, Pattern or Chalklings?

A: Pattern was before Chalklings, good question. For some part of its existence, the Rithmatist was in the Cosmere, until I decided I just don't want Earth in the Cosmere at all, even a bizarre sort of version of Earth.

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Pagerunner

[Spoolofwhool]

Since he has said that Earth isn't part of Cosmere, and he doesn't seem the type who would straight out lie to the fans just so that he can pull a twist later on, I think it's safe to say that Earth is not in the Cosmere, and every story of his featuring Earth does not have a place in Cosmere.

[+Zodiac]

The cosmere is a dwarf galaxy. Earth not being part of the cosmere just means that its not in THAT galaxy. And its not, earth is in the milkyway. Do we have confirmation that there is not an earth in the same universe as the cosmere? 

[HoidvsVoid]

Well,if you would not mind nitpicking, you "could" say that in this topic, that calamity is not cosmere because it is pre-cosmere...

[Amanuensis]

As stated, the Cosmere only refers to a dwarf galaxy separate from ours. Personally I believe the two are Connected, but I wouldn't bet money that the Cosmere exists in the state we witness it parallel to the events of Reckoners. Sadly, my theory on that matter has received no comments and two down votes since being posted =P the general consensus on these forums seems to be to consider the two entirely separate. If they aren't, however, I don't think Hoid has been to or ever could visit Earth, regardless of timelines. It's hard enough to Worldhop within the Cosmere, and presumably the Milky Way is very far.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Spoolofwhool]

 I don't see how worldhopping between galaxies would be that hard anyways, since there would be next-to-no cognitive presence between galaxies, leading to a greatly reduced cognitive realm, just like worldhopping between worlds. I was always under the impression that Cosmere referred to the entire universe but all the stories took place in a central location of that universe, but I checked WoBs and found that a later one says Cosmere just takes place in a galaxy, so that works. 

@Amanuensis I have glanced at your theory. The thing is, I suppose it's possible, but I feel like Brandon has made it fairly clear that what is happening in any novel based on Earth is completely separate to what is happening in Cosmere. Yes, that doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but it will definitely mean that it remains unconfirmed. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Amanuensis]

20 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

 

 I don't see how worldhopping between galaxies would be that hard anyways, since there would be next-to-no cognitive presence between galaxies, leading to a greatly reduced cognitive realm, just like worldhopping between worlds. I was always under the impression that Cosmere referred to the entire universe but all the stories took place in a central location of that universe, but I checked WoBs and found that a later one says Cosmere just takes place in a galaxy, so that works. 

@Amanuensis I have glanced at your theory. The thing is, I suppose it's possible, but I feel like Brandon has made it fairly clear that what is happening in any novel based on Earth is completely separate to what is happening in Cosmere. Yes, that doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but it will definitely mean that it remains unconfirmed. 

Well, they still are completely separate, either by vast amounts of space or multiverses. My argument is mainly that the two come from the same place, which if true, allows us to figure some things out about Adonalsium in particular, and it helps explain the Shattering quite well.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Well, they still are completely separate, either by vast amounts of space or multiverses. My argument is mainly that the two come from the same place, which if true, allows us to figure some things out about Adonalsium in particular, and it helps explain the Shattering quite well.

Maybe, but very doubtful. I think Brandon has made it clear that both are to be kept separate, so information in one really has no effect on the other. Probably could just Brandon to confirm if you really want to try to use info from Reckoners to explain Adonalsium.

[emailanimal]

Two discussions on Cosmere originating from Calamity in one day... He-he....

The Reckoners is a very recent development, while Cosmere is something Brandon has been working on pretty much since his first/second novels (that are unpublished).

To that extent, the best case scenario is that Brandon might be thinking of some sort of Asimov's Robots and Empire trick of bringing this all together, but personally, I am inclined to take it at his word that the series that feature Earth are not related to Cosmere.

[Dahak]

On 07/12/2016 at 4:07 PM, king of nowhere said:

Earth is not part of the cosmere. I think humankind originated on a planet called Yolen, before the shattering of adonalsium.

According to Khriss all but two of the planets had Humans before the Shards arrived on them. One of those two is Scadrial, which Khriss suspects of having been manufactured in toto by Ruin and Preservation.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Dahak said:

According to Khriss all but two of the planets had Humans before the Shards arrived on them. One of those two is Scadrial, which Khriss suspects of having been manufactured in toto by Ruin and Preservation.

Yes, but we know Yolen is the original homeworld of humanity in the Cosmere.

[Eki]

On 2016-12-08 at 6:28 AM, emailanimal said:

To that extent, the best case scenario is that Brandon might be thinking of some sort of Asimov's Robots and Empire trick of bringing this all together, but personally, I am inclined to take it at his word that the series that feature Earth are not related to Cosmere.

Asimov was one of Brandon's inspirations in creating the Cosmere, because he wanted to do that kind of thing, but actually do it consciously from the very beginning.

 

[William Holz]

On 12/10/2016 at 8:42 PM, Weltall said:

Yes, but we know Yolen is the original homeworld of humanity in the Cosmere.

Wouldn't that also be effectively true if Yolen was the planet in the Cosmere on which humans arrived from Earth?

That seems to still satisfy Brandon's comments.

[Yata]

Honestly I don't understand what is the point to add the Earth to all cost to the Cosmere.

Also the "Cosmere is dawft galaxy wide" didn't mean there is something more beyond the Cosmere's limit (imagine an universe large only a fraction of our own), if Adonalsium created the Cosmere, He/She/it may created the only space needed to his/her/its creation.

Also the Realmatic Theory seems to be not fitting with Reckoners or Rithmalist ambientation.

[William Holz]

On 12/7/2016 at 7:18 PM, Amanuensis said:

Well, they still are completely separate, either by vast amounts of space or multiverses. My argument is mainly that the two come from the same place, which if true, allows us to figure some things out about Adonalsium in particular, and it helps explain the Shattering quite well.

What about a whole lot of time?

[Spoilers form Calamity below]

Obliteration had just visited space at the end of Calamity and got to visit a glass space station.  

If he continues on his quest and continues to be defeated, it may eventually occur to him to travel much closer to the sun, and doing so may allow him to ramp up his powers at an exponential rate (even if he bounces back and forth).  Given that we know of no limits to his power, he could eventually reach Earth-shattering or even reality-shattering levels. 

Meanwhile, we have things like the spyril and other devices created from the epics, which could arguably be considered 'primitive' shards.  It's not hard to see a convergence that ends up destroying the Earth as we know it and setting the remnants adrift until finally arriving at what will eventually be known as the Cosmere.  

Then it's just a matter of trying to recreate humanity from what little is left, which could be anything from memories to revivable blocks of metal (heh) to ...well, anything.  

Another possibility is in VERY 'hard' sci-fi territory.  Something along the lines of the Etsy from Benford's Galactic Center series... life on the accretion disk of a black hole, that sort of thing.  It might even only be happening over moments as far as we're concerned... which would actually allow for the 'magic' as well, because it's halfway between our reality and a data when you get down to it.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Kaymyth
added in some spoiler tags for ya :)

[William Holz]

9 minutes ago, Yata said:

Honestly I don't understand what is the point to add the Earth to all cost to the Cosmere.

Also the "Cosmere is dawft galaxy wide" didn't mean there is something more beyond the Cosmere's limit (imagine an universe large only a fraction of our own), if Adonalsium created the Cosmere, He/She/it may created the only space needed to his/her/its creation.

It's not an 'at all costs' thing, it's just playing with breadcrumbs.  

We have humans, we have some intriguingly Earth-like references, we have Hoid having (in Brandon's mind) origins on the Earth, AND we have a place that by all appearances is millennia in the future of an Earth-like society.

You hit the point where it's at least as logical, if not more so, for the Cosmere to be the result of something that happened to the Earth in a distant past (even if not the 'Recokners' universe)

Quote

Also the Realmatic Theory seems to be not fitting with Reckoners or Rithmalist ambientation.

This one actually makes the whole 'big Apocalypse' bit make MORE sense to me, not lest.  The Reckoners takes place in our own system and Quantum Theory is dominant.  

The Cosmere then becomes something not in our reality at all (at least not from the standpoint of time working the way it does to us), and instead becomes something isolated in spacetime one way or another.  It's not subject to Quantum Theory and instead is a created reality from the memories of the galaxy we existed in before things went wrong.  You have a number of 'remnants' of people combining their reality and their imaginings with their dreams and the realities of where they are and you could easily end up with something precisely as weird as the Cosmere.

Again, just having fun theorizing...but that's what this joint is for, right?

[Yata]

58 minutes ago, William Holz said:

We have humans, we have some intriguingly Earth-like references, we have Hoid having (in Brandon's mind) origins on the Earth, AND we have a place that by all appearances is millennia in the future of an Earth-like society.

Can you explain me the link Hoid-Earth, I honestly didn't get it

[William Holz]

19 minutes ago, Yata said:

Can you explain me the link Hoid-Earth, I honestly didn't get it

Oh! Yeah! Sorry!

It's NOT a super-solid link and I honestly don't think it's the sort of thing to lay a theory on...but in Arcanum Unbounded in one of the follow-up sections Brandon talks about some of his personal origins for Hoid...which was actually pretty delightful. He always imagined him as a 'person behind the scenes' in movies and such.  (I think that says some kind of cool things about Brandon honestly) 

Alone honestly I don't think it's that meaningful, but when you factor in a bunch of other Earth-like things (anachronistic things in Mistborn as well as that lovely picture, Alodin describing something very much like a lion, chickens and strawberries in Shinovar, and so on) it points to some sort of...I don't know, migration maybe?  (That's how Raymond Feist did it in the Mistwar books).

Then when you tie the two together with the fact that Hoid was present at the sundering, and that does kind of hint that maybe Hoid was on Earth before he was in the Cosmere.

Tenuous and hints, but interesting and fun.  (And JUST as interesting if there's no Reckoners connection, but given that they have 'mini' shards already and Obliteration's one idea away from a cataclysmic event, it's intriguing to see if that connects, right?)

Edited December 29, 2016 by William Holz

[Spoolofwhool]

9 minutes ago, William Holz said:

Alone honestly I don't think it's that meaningful, but when you factor in a bunch of other Earth-like things (anachronistic things in Mistborn as well as that lovely picture, Alodin describing something very much like a lion, chickens and strawberries in Shinovar, and so on) it points to some sort of...I don't know, migration maybe?  (That's how Raymond Feist did it in the Mistwar books).

Most of those references though can be explained by the simple fact that they do exist in the Cosmere, so I don't see how it is out-of-place. For instance, strawberries and chickens are actual animals in Shinovar. In addition, other irregularities can be explained by the fact that he is using magic to translate his words and meanings to whichever Rosharan language he is using at the moment, which is then translated to whichever Earth language the book is printed. I don't know about Mistborn references. 

Once again, considering Brandon has firmly stated the two aren't connected, I don't see any point it theorizing a connection when we have been given such a definitive answer.

[William Holz]

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Most of those references though can be explained by the simple fact that they do exist in the Cosmere, so I don't see how it is out-of-place. For instance, strawberries and chickens are actual animals in Shinovar. In addition, other irregularities can be explained by the fact that he is using magic to translate his words and meanings to whichever Rosharan language he is using at the moment, which is then translated to whichever Earth language the book is printed. I don't know about Mistborn references. 

I don't find that very convincing.  Brandon has demonstrated that he's fully capable of creating animals that are clearly NOT Earth-related.  It looks more like he's deliberately planting seeds to me, especially with how specific some of the references are.

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Once again, considering Brandon has firmly stated the two aren't connected, I don't see any point it theorizing a connection when we have been given such a definitive answer.

I haven't seen a statement that 'there is no connection', just that one is not 'in' the other.  That doesn't preclude the Cosmere being the result of some cataclysmic event on Earth and the things that sound like they're from Earth actually being from Earth. 

Also, as I mentioned...

25 minutes ago, William Holz said:

Tenuous and hints, but interesting and fun.  (And JUST as interesting if there's no Reckoners connection, but given that they have 'mini' shards already and Obliteration's one idea away from a cataclysmic event, it's intriguing to see if that connects, right?)

So, I'm not saying 'It can only be the Reckoners!' (In fact if not for Obliteration and the proto-shards I'd not go there) I'm saying ...

1) It very much appears there was an exodus from Earth

2a) Technically, there are a number of scenarios that spawn from the events at the end of Calamity that could create that exodus.

2b) If not, given Brandon's history, it seems likely that something interesting happened to the Earth.

3) (supplemental) There are a number of interesting (and even science-based) ways for the Cosmere to exist that either involve it being very distantly shifted in time or (I think more interestingly, as it allows for the creation of Realmatic theory) existing in a different substrate than the one we exist on (something like Benford's Etsy)

Edited December 29, 2016 by William Holz

[Yata]

Hoid is Yolish, borned and rised there (as other the 16 Vessels are).

Those references mean quite nothing as @Spoolofwhool said. Many of those are things acutally present on Roshar or on other Shardworlds (Yolen and Scadrial are quite Earth-like and you will probably find out flora and fauna there).

[William Holz]

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

Hoid is Yolish, borned and rised there (as other the 16 Vessels are).

Those references mean quite nothing as @Spoolofwhool said. Many of those are things acutally present on Roshar or on other Shardworlds (Yolen and Scadrial are quite Earth-like and you will probably find out flora and fauna there).

As somebody who is very into biology, that level of convergent evolution doesn't make sense.  Sure, it works for a lazy author, but Sanderson has shown that he's capable of creating things that don't specifically reference Earth with little effort.

And why reference them in such detail?  And AFTER creating things like the chull, yet on the same world?  Chickens weren't previously associated with Yolen, were they?  

Sure, I could see other authors being that lazy, but not Sanderson.  And I'm still not seeing anything close to 'validation' other than 'I can rationalize this'.  

I see a LOT more that contradicts the 'there never was an Earth' theory than I do that contradicts the 'Exodus' one.