BlackYeti Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 So I just found this new WoB here: Quote 3. c. Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?A. Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharian planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric Given that we have that old WoB that there aren't 10 Unmade, and given that we think that Odium has been forced to camp out on Braize, I'm proposing that there are in fact going to be 9 Nazgûl Unmade. Now if we look at Voidbinding, the name suggests that the magic is a mix of both Odium and Honour, which suggest that much like Surgebinding there could be multiple Orders. It would make similar sense therefore for there to be 9 Orders of Voidbinding, each of which could then be linked to one of the Unmade similarly to how the Orders of Radiants link to one of the Heralds. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 I like the idea of 9 Unmade. For no reason at all I've always had headcanon that there are 7, but 9 fits nicely with the WoB. 10 minutes ago, BlackYeti said: Now if we look at Voidbinding, the name suggests that the magic is a mix of both Odium and Honour, which suggest that much like Surgebinding there could be multiple Orders. It would make similar sense therefore for there to be 9 Orders of Voidbinding, each of which could then be linked to one of the Unmade similarly to how the Orders of Radiants link to one of the Heralds. Only problem with this is that, if the chart in WoK is indeed for Voidbinding, then there are 10 orders or types. But we don't really know what that chart is, do we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted December 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, PallonianFire said: Only problem with this is that, if the chart in WoK is indeed for Voidbinding, then there are 10 orders or types. But we don't really know what that chart is, do we? Indeed we do not know what the chart is. But I'm sticking with my theory that it's a Cognitive Surgebinding chart for now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 Wow, that is one heck of a theory. You must have put hours into something that comprehensive! You make a lot of really good points in it, though my instinct is (as it usually is with theories) to be skeptical. It does address the thing that bugs me the most about the chart if it's for Voids: namely, that it seems really out of place in WoK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 26 minutes ago, BlackYeti said: Now if we look at Voidbinding, the name suggests that the magic is a mix of both Odium and Honour, which suggest that much like Surgebinding there could be multiple Orders. It would make similar sense therefore for there to be 9 Orders of Voidbinding, each of which could then be linked to one of the Unmade similarly to how the Orders of Radiants link to one of the Heralds. "Ten Levels of Voidbinding" is how I recall they were referred to in the Ars Arcanum. I don't think it's inconsistent, since magic systems arise from an interaction between a planet and a Shard. If Voidbinding is an Odium/Roshar magic system, then 10 would still fit. (I doubt there would be a magic system on Braize if it there is no one there but spren and Cognitive Shadows.) Also, when Way of Kings was first coming out, he described it as having either 30 magic systems or 3, depending on how you counted them. 10 Surges or Surgebinding were the ones we knew about then. Fabrial science is the second big one, with 10 different kinds of fabrials suspected. Voidbinding and its 10 levels would fill the remaining third of Roshar's magic. But, yeah, I thought the same thing about the number of the Unmade when I saw that quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted December 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: "Ten Levels of Voidbinding" is how I recall they were referred to in the Ars Arcanum. I don't think it's inconsistent, since magic systems arise from an interaction between a planet and a Shard. If Voidbinding is an Odium/Roshar magic system, then 10 would still fit. (I doubt there would be a magic system on Braize if it there is no one there but spren and Cognitive Shadows.) Also, when Way of Kings was first coming out, he described it as having either 30 magic systems or 3, depending on how you counted them. 10 Surges or Surgebinding were the ones we knew about then. Fabrial science is the second big one, with 10 different kinds of fabrials suspected. Voidbinding and its 10 levels would fill the remaining third of Roshar's magic. Good points, I'll concede these. I should have thought of them myself to be honest: that'll teach me to jump straight in with an idea rather than thinking about them for a while. I just rather liked the idea of a different number for Voidbinding which has nothing to do with the fact that it would have ruled out the main contender for my theory . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 1 hour ago, PallonianFire said: Only problem with this is that, if the chart in WoK is indeed for Voidbinding, then there are 10 orders or types. But we don't really know what that chart is, do we? I've never liked the idea that it's a "Voidbinding chart." Everything about it screams Shadesmar. You've got the Shadesmar map, you've got gems and spheres, you've got a Vorin woman. I just don't see anything the slightest bit Voidish except maybe the lightning? And that's a pretty weak connection. It's got to have something to do with the Surgebinding as it relates to the Cognitive Realm. My personal theory is that it has something to do with soulcasting. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 What I find interesting is that we theorize 9 unmade. We also theorize that of the 10 heralds, one has turned traitor, based on the diagram. So, 9 Heralds, 9 unmade, and one traitor that switches sides... That could explain why there are only 9 unmade, but what appear to be 10 orders of Voidbinders. And if (Kinds-sorta-maybe Edgedancer-y spoilers? Tags just to be careful) : Spoiler The theory that Ishar is the traitor is true, then the Voidbringers could end up with Voidish equivalent of Bondsmiths. What if Ishar is playing both sides against the middle? Or let's go one step deeper, what if Ishar, who is leading the charge to put down magic users on Roshar, is one of Bavadin's personas... (Ref topic: Bavadin's Gender, @Pagerunner's comments about potential Bavadin personnas on different worlds. (Would have quoted directly, but could not figure out how to quote from one tabto another) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 Quote INTERVIEW: Mar 22nd, 2014 WoR Signing Report - Argent (Verbatim) QUESTION Is the number of the Unmade fixed? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. QUESTION Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten? BRANDON SANDERSON Is it ten? No, it's not ten Great new WoB! It answers this question from a few years ago...AND OPENS SO MANY OTHERS UP. Were there originally 10 Unmade, but one was destroyed? Quote INTERVIEW: Nov 3rd, 2016 Librería Gigamesh QUESTION He also signed my WoR and I asked him to write something about the Unmade (this one is quoted word by word. Can't add picture right now) BRANDON SANDERSON "Most of the Unmade are not what we would call sapient. But a few are different... Based on this WoB, I find it hard to believe that there's a clear-cut parallel to the Heralds. We know the Unmade are splinters of Odium (weird that he would have 9 splinters), but this WoB makes it sound like most of them are not intelligent/conscious in the way we'd think of other splinters (like spren or seons). What if some of them are big, creepy fabrials that emit variations of Odium's influence? This has been my closet theory for awhile, but I'm not quite ready to reveal it too loudly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 40 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said: Great new WoB! It answers this question from a few years ago...AND OPENS SO MANY OTHERS UP. Were there originally 10 Unmade, but one was destroyed? Based on this WoB, I find it hard to believe that there's a clear-cut parallel to the Heralds. We know the Unmade are splinters of Odium (weird that he would have 9 splinters), but this WoB makes it sound like most of them are not intelligent/conscious in the way we'd think of other splinters (like spren or seons). What if some of them are big, creepy fabrials that emit variations of Odium's influence? This has been my closet theory for awhile, but I'm not quite ready to reveal it too loudly! What I took away from it about some of the Unmade not being Sapient, is that it's more a force that "does things" than has a plan for how to go about doing it. If you've seen Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, as far as the analogy goes. For example, an Unmade such as Nergaoul could simply be one that wanders around inciting anarchy and death (via The Thrill). It's also entirely possible that there are gradations to the Unmade. Those with names ARE the sapient ones, while there are substantially more Unmade that are the non-sapient ones that do things such as animate thunderclasts, "possession" (animals that speak), and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 I was fond of the idea that there were eleven Unmade (because that would be a deliberate poke in the eye to Honor in a 'ten is holy to you, hah, I'll do you one better' sense) but wotj Braize having nine-centric numerology according to that WoB then nine Unmade it is. Now to wait for Oathbringer so we can learn more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted December 1, 2016 Report Share Posted December 1, 2016 2 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said: Great new WoB! But he didn't say there are 9 unmade. He just strongly suggested that nine is "Odium's number". @Weltall I really like the "one less than 10" thing actually. Makes me think of the 6 vs. 7 symbolism in Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 On 12/1/2016 at 7:33 AM, BlackYeti said: Indeed we do not know what the chart is. But I'm sticking with my theory that it's a Cognitive Surgebinding chart for now. I think the second chart is the Cultivtion form of magic, Fabrials. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stBondsmith Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Points to you @thejopen27 for creative thought. I hadn't heard that anywhere. I will ponder this a while before I reply, but the first upvote is mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, 1stBondsmith said: Points to you @thejopen27 for creative thought. I hadn't heard that anywhere. I will ponder this a while before I reply, but the first upvote is mine. I think the 30 magic types include 10 mostly of Honor, Surgebinding, 10 mostly of Cultivation, fabrials and trapping of spren to harness powers, and Voidbinding, whatever that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeakoftheDeval Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 How come no one on this thread has mentioned old magic? How does that fit into the thirty systems? Everything else seems to fit but theres no place for old magic and its really annoying me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted December 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, MadhavDeval said: How come no one on this thread has mentioned old magic? How does that fit into the thirty systems? Everything else seems to fit but theres no place for old magic and its really annoying me. From what little we know of the old magic, it doesn't seem to be the sort of magic that people perform, but rather what the Nightwatcher does to people. I think Brandon even said at one point that he wasn't referring to the old magic when he spoke about the 30 magic systems. (I'll see if I can find the quote when I get to my computer.) Edit: Found it: Quote QUESTION How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?] BRANDON SANDERSON I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. Edited December 3, 2016 by BlackYeti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 3, 2016 Report Share Posted December 3, 2016 3 hours ago, MadhavDeval said: How come no one on this thread has mentioned old magic? How does that fit into the thirty systems? Everything else seems to fit but theres no place for old magic and its really annoying me. Chances are that Old Magic isn't a manifestation of investiture like Surgebinding, Fabrials and Voidbinding, but rather is something more along the lines of something with a massive source of investiture directly changing people at will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted December 6, 2016 Report Share Posted December 6, 2016 The Old Magic doesn't seem to be something people can access like Surgebinding (Honor with help from Cultivation), Fabrials (Cultivation with help from Honor), and Voidbinding (Odium with power from Honor) but instead something that is granted by Cultivation's power directly through the Nightwatcher. It is Cultivation cultivating little changes through people who come to see her that will ripple out and cause changes in the world. Taravangian, Lift, and Dalinar have all been changed and we'll see if those changes fit into a grander plan by Cultivation that comes together in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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