A Theory on the Initial Distribution of the Shards

[Amanuensis]

Hello all. I've been thinking about this theory for a long time, although a few recent comments have made me decide to actually write it up. To keep things short, I'm going to quote the Coppermind article for Adonalsium and link the relevant WoBs, that way I don't have to waste any time (mine or yours) regurgitating this information.

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At some point in the past, Adonalsium created the original humans (1). It has been confirmed that Hoid was present when Adonalsium Shattered (2), that the Shattering left exactly the sixteen Shards it did for a specific reason (3)(4), and that the shattering was intentional.(5)

For unknown reasons at least some of the 16 who shattered Adonalsium did so believing it was the final option left to them, suggesting its power may have been targeted as a last ditch attempt at self-preservation.(2)

While I can't say I know everything about Yolen, I have a general understanding that the world was dying to something known as fainlife. According to Yolish lore, it is some kind of malevolent disease(?) released from the corpses of Gods that began to gradually eat away at the world. My first thought here is, what is Adonalsium doing? Why hasn't he fought it off or tried to save Yolen? I can't answer this exactly. I can theorize the entity we know as Adonalsium did not originally hold that power, and that like the Shards, it shaped him into being unable to act in any meaningful way. We already see an example of 2 conflicting Intents forcing a Vessel from acting much (Harmony), so it's possible having 16 different Intents, possibly in 8 conflicting pairs, would have the same affect on Him. On that note, I find it interesting that Frost the Dragon has a non-intervention policy. I suspect that this might be a result of a particularly strict religion that worships Adonalsium directly, and adheres to the same concept that it is their duty to let destiny run its course. Either way, this isn't the main subject I want to discuss.

Back to my theory, it seems clear that the 16 original Vessels of the Shards were a group of people from across Yolen who, each for their own reasons, wanted to stop the fainlife, and that the only way they could accomplish it was by killing Adonalsium and taking the power for himself. And thus I believe that the "force that determined which way it shattered" was each Vessel's Intent in committing deicide.

To emphasize my theory, let's look at the names of the Shards we know, and connect those to reasons why someone might commit deicide or want to become a god.

• Autonomy: Based on what we know of Bavadin, she really doesn't like people who use magic. The Kertzians on Taldain have a deep hatred for Sand Masters, and she appears to be interfering with other worlds and encouraging their inhabitants to hate those with magic, if not the Shards themselves. For example, I believe that Bavadin has hijacked Idrian Austrism, hence their recent (300 years) opposition towards Awakening and Returned. I suspect she affected Shu-Dereth in a similar way, which is the driving factor in why wants to conquer the world, and perhaps why the Dakhor Monks want to slaughter the Elantrians as well. There's also the business with Trell on Scadrial. Ultimately I think Bavadin's reason for helping Shatter Adonalsium was because she wanted to have a Cosmere autonomous from Gods, which is somewhat ironic, since she's apparently going around pretending to be them.
• Cultivation: We really don't know much about this Shard or Vessel, sadly, but for now I can come up with an easy answer. I suspect the original holder of Cultivation was an older woman and a mother at that. She wanted to create a stable Cosmere with her kids could grow old and live happy and comfortably. Likely this desire applied to more than just her immediate family, but all others too. I also wouldn't be surprised if she was an avid gardener, or had an love for nature. Now that I think about it, I think Shinovar being where she resides / the location of her shardpool makes a lot of sense, as it's the only place on Roshar that resembles earth (Yolen).
• Devotion: This ones a bit tricky, since we don't know much about Aona, either, and one would think that with the religious connotations of the word, it's hard to imagine how someone is being devoted by killing their god. Perhaps I could see that, if a previous statement about Adonalsium not being the original holder of that power, that it's a tradition of sorts for the power to be passed on, and that Aona belongs to this culture. A bit of a stretch, but the most interesting theory I can come up with. It's possible she's just reaaally devoted to Yolen, or whatever country she comes from on it, to the point that she'd kill god to save it. Not as fun an answer, though.
• Dominion: Skai's reason is a bit easier to figure out, if Fjordell is anything to go off of! He just wanted to dominate the Cosmere! I suspect this isn't entirely the case. Maybe he just believed that mortals should be in control of their destiny, rather than the gods (or in this case, a god). Once again, this answers a bit generic and hard to say for certain since we don't know much about Skai. I personally got a feeling he's not that bad of a guy.
• Endowment: Considering how magic works on Nalthis, if this theory is correct than Edgli's main reason for committing deicide would be her wanting every person to have a little bit of god's power, rather than see it all be held by a single person.
• Honor: Tanavast's purpose for commiting deicide being "honorable" is another one of the tougher connections for me to establish. Considering all the business with oaths, maybe he was some kind of knight that strictly abided by some kind of code that compelled him to take part in destroying Adonalsium. Like Dominion, the Honor shard makes me question this theory, although either way, it's a fun thought experiment.
• Odium: Easy enough, considering what we know about Rayse. He hated Adonalsium. Likely for some completely tragic reason. Maybe he grew up in a very religious culture which was one of the first to be consumed by the fainlife, and ever since, he blamed Adonalsium in particular for failing to intervene. Considering that Hoid describes him as craft, I wouldn't even be surprised if he was the one who gathered this team from the start.
• Preservation: Another easy one... Leras wanted to preserve the world. He liked it the way things were and didn't want anything to change. The way I just worded it makes me think he might have been one of the younger vessels, which seems to contradict how wise he seems during his appearances, but on that matter, a lot of time has passed since the Shattering.
• Ruin: We know that Ati wasn't a bad guy, according to Hoid (I think? Or was it WoB?), and that Ruin had corrupted him over time. I know plenty of good people who have reasonable prejudices. It's possible that he came from similar origins as Rayse, in that his homeland was consumed by the fainlife, but instead of hating god for not saving them, he just wanted to destroy the source of his pain once and for all.
• Ambition: Here we are at the shard we've most recently learned the name of, and also know next-to-nothing about. With a name like Ambition, it isn't hard to guess what the Vessel's reason for committing deicide would be. I suspect he wanted power, perhaps for no other reason than to have it, and this may have been a large factor in why he was the first Shard that Odium attempted to Splinter.

And now for the culminating statement! We know that Hoid was at the Shattering. We also know that Hoid is not a Shard(6). I believe the reason why Hoid didn't receive a Shard is because he didn't want Adonalsium to die. I believe that Hoid was present at the Shattering because he was trying to stop it. Furthermore, I believe it's possible that Hoid's ultimate Cosmeric goal has something to do with reforging the Shards into a new Adonalsium (likely not within himself, since I doubt he wants to be a God, or believes himself capable of being a good one).

Now that all my thoughts on the matter are out there, I'll go ahead and point out that I don't really have much evidence to support this. However, I would really like to ask Brandon a question like "if every original Vessels was at the Shattering, except another person was there with them other than Leras, would the other people responsible for the Shattering receive the same exact Shards while Leras replacement would take Preservation, or would he get a different Shard entirely?" It would most certainly reveal an RAFO, but I do wonder what Brandon's reaction to such a question would be (a sly smile, a laugh, etc).

The idea itself is pretty wild. But I would love it if people commented with any contextual evidence that might prove or disprove it, for discussion's sake. Also, feel free to come up with other motivations for killing Adonalsium that align with these Shard's Intents.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Blightsong]

Regardless of the chances that this theory is true (which it might be), it's really well put together and is the most interesting idea I've seen on here in a bit, nice work.

[JUQ]

Have an upvote, my dear Aman, for putting in words an idea that I've had for a while. Regarding Honor, I believe he killed Adonalsium because he thought that it was dishonorable for Adonalsium to destroy Yolen through the fain life, and it would only be honorable to destroy the source of bad stuff (for lack of a better word).

[Jedal]

I like the theory, but I have one bone to pick. It was never specifically said that the Shards had the qualities of their Intents before they became Shards. In fact, it was stated that the Intents were portions of Adonalsium's personality(I don't remember where.) In Mistborn it was said that Ati was a kind man before being transformed into Ruin. I could never imagine a good man wanting to Ruin something. The reason why Odium wants to destroy the other Shards is because Rayse interpreted the Intent in a certain way, not desiring to take the other Shards because it would warp his Intent, which he believed matched his original personality perfectly. So, while I like your effort, I think that they could have had a plethora of reasons for wanting to destroy Adonalsium, which did not need to align with their Intents.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Orderbound

[VirtuousTraveller]

I too wonder if the original Vessels got their shards (intent specific) intentionally - why would someone like Rayse, who seems like a bad guy, be given the most horrific and powerful of the shards?  Did Ati get Ruin because they thought he could keep it from becoming to destructive?  Did the 16 work together in a unified front with an original purpose for the post-shattering cosmere?

As a question, is this whole "fainlife" thing fair game for discussion at this point?  I know Khriss mentions it once in AU, but all I know about it is that it was something that existed in some of Brandon's unpublished works.  I didn't think we were supposed to talk about that content (since it's not canon).

Good food for thought!  I'd NEVER considered a connection between Autonomy and Austere, but it's definitely plausible (to be determined true or not).  Upvote for you! =)

[Amanuensis]

34 minutes ago, Orderbound said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the theory, but I have one bone to pick. It was never specifically said that the Shards had the qualities of their Intents before they became Shards. In fact, it was stated that the Intents were portions of Adonalsium's personality(I don't remember where.) In Mistborn it was said that Ati was a kind man before being transformed into Ruin. I could never imagine a good man wanting to Ruin something. The reason why Odium wants to destroy the other Shards is because Rayse interpreted the Intent in a certain way, not desiring to take the other Shards because it would warp his Intent, which he believed matched his original personality perfectly. So, while I like your effort, I think that they could have had a plethora of reasons for wanting to destroy Adonalsium, which did not need to align with their Intents.

If you could find that WoB on the Shard's being part of Adonalsium's personality, I would be very grateful, as that's something I haven't seen before.

As with Ati, I mentioned that in my little schpeel about Ruin. Kind people are perfectly capable of unkind emotions, or committing unkind acts. Especially when their life is flipped upside down. In this scenario, I suggest that Ati was always a kind man, but that something extremely important to him was taken by the fainlife, which prompted him to dedicate his life to exterminating it. At some point he discovered that the only way to destroy the fainlife for good was to kill Adonalsium and take his power, and maybe even was recruited by Rayse, who had gone through a very similar situation, but just had different goals (as I stated, he blamed god for the death of his loved one). 

To use examples from other stories that you might be familiar with, is Eren Yaeger from Attack on Titan a bad person because he wants to destroy all the Titans? What about Yuichiro from Seraph of the End and his life goal to kill all the Vampires that enslaved mankind? 

I'm proposing that Ati was a good person with good desires (to destroy the fainlife before they destroy his entire world), which led him down an debatably evil path that ended with him killing god, and the focus of the power he got was a reflection of that intent.

As for Rayse, I didn't really comment on why he's running around killing Shards. But the fact of the matter is, we know from Arcanum Unbounded that Rayse killed Ambition shortly after the Shattering. Since we know Shards take a long time to twist a Vessel, I suspect he was prepared to betray his fellow allies from the start.

To perhaps better explain how I think things went down, we know that Adonalsium's power split up between the Vessels, and each took the form of an Intent, as well as the fact that things could have led to different Intents being made. This suggests that they are not pieces of Adonalsium's personality. I think that the most powerful desire that each of the Vessels had fore killing Adonalsium attracted the Investiture to them, fusing with these intents to create the Shards in a similar manor to how Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow fused with the Stormfather.

To quote the coppermind again, this time the article for "intent":

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The Intent of a Shard of Adonalsium is the primary purpose or motivation of that Shard. The name of each Shard reflects that Shard's intent, for example the Shard Ruin's primary motivation is cause things to be destroyed

My theory is that the intent of each Shard is also the primary purpose or motivation that each particular Vessel helped kill Adonalsium.

 

@VirtuousTraveller, In regards to fainlife, I believe it is mentioned in the Liars of Partinel chapters, which are online and, as far as I'm aware, fair game for discussion. I would say especially so now that it's been mentioned in AU.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Magestar]

26 minutes ago, Orderbound said:

In Mistborn it was said that Ati was a kind man before being transformed into Ruin. I could never imagine a good man wanting to Ruin something.

Well, there are good reasons to "ruin" something.  However, I believe that Brandon has said something to the effect that the shards were split according to how each person was aligned.  Ati sort of had to be aligned with Ruin to some extent to even be able to pick it up.

30 minutes ago, Orderbound said:

I like the theory, but I have one bone to pick. It was never specifically said that the Shards had the qualities of their Intents before they became Shards. In fact, it was stated that the Intents were portions of Adonalsium's personality(I don't remember where.)

30 minutes ago, Orderbound said:

So, while I like your effort, I think that they could have had a plethora of reasons for wanting to destroy Adonalsium, which did not need to align with their Intents.

To some extent, you are correct.  However, to pick up a shard, you have to be aligned with it's intent.  Adonalisum split the way it did because of how each of the 16 Vessels were aligned.  (Can't find WoB right now.)  So, while Ati may not have been wanting to kill Adonalsium for Ruinous reasons, he most aligned with Ruin out of other possible aspects of Adonalsiums personality.

Example.  MB;SH Spoilers.

Spoiler

In MB;SH, Kelsier could not pick up preservation naturally, because he was not aligned with it.  He could have picked up Ruin, however, because he is aligned with Ruin, despite all the other facets of his personality.   It is possible for him to pick up Preservation with the IRE's device, which I assume is something like what was used to shatter Adonalsium.

13 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

If you could find that WoB on the Shard's being part of Adonalsium's personality, I would be very grateful, as that's something I haven't seen before.

I'm pretty sure this is accurate but I don't have time to go WoB hunting RN.  I'll try to find it later... There are a few WoB's on this topic.

[Pagerunner]

39 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

If you could find that WoB on the Shard's being part of Adonalsium's personality, I would be very grateful, as that's something I haven't seen before.

18 minutes ago, Magestar said:

I'm pretty sure this is accurate but I don't have time to go WoB hunting RN.  I'll try to find it later... There are a few WoB's on this topic.

From what I understand, this comes primarily from the First Letter, where Hoid refers to Odium as "God's own divine hatred." I don't recall any other specific information or quotes on this; whenever I've utilized this idea, I've only pulled it from this one source (albeit a very strong and clear one).

It's an interesting thought, that the Shards' Intents have been shaped by the reasons their Vessels participated in the Shattering in the first place. I don't have any specific comments, since I have some disagreements on some of your assumptions (I think people are elevating the fain life to an undue level of importance, and I disagree with the specific interpretations of some Shards). But I do like the concept as a whole.

[Amanuensis]

As a counter argument, let's reference the Shards we've seen after death so far. On Roshar, we've got Honor who was Splintered by Odium. We know for a fact that Tanavast's personality separated to form a Cognitive Shadow, which eventually fused with the Stormfather, meanwhile the Investiture that gave him power was fragmented into many pieces of varying sizes. I don't believe that all of the spren are tiny facets of Tanavast's personality manifested into a unique, individual thing. I believe that they're all pieces of Honor, his Intent, that because of the fact they gained sentience after, not before, develop their own personalities, but adhere to similar motivations as their Shard's intent (the desire to bond with others and keep true to their word). We also see this with the Seons and Skaze. The Seons seem absolutely devoted to whoever their master is, while the Skaze are apparently working towards dominating the world through the humans they've bonded with.

Another example we have is on Scadrial, when Ruin is finally defeated and Ati appears in the Cognitive Realm. That Ati seems nothing like the looming shadow of malicious intent that taunts Kelsier through Secret History. In fact, that Ati just seems like a normal man, confused by his death.

So to me, it doesn't make sense that Adonalsium's personality split when he was Shattered. I actually believe that Adonalsium himself became a Cognitive Shadow, and it was his Investiture that split up and bonded to the people who killed him. Since Adonalsium was whole, it's possible that he didn't have a specific Intent, but was broadly capable of anything, or perhaps that his intent was Create. Maybe the act of destroying creation made it impossible for its original intent to function in the hearts of the Vessels, and so it latched onto the reasons why they destroyed him to begin with, if not their greatest desire, and then became the pure embodiment of that ideal.

With that thought in mind, I'm now wondering if I'm right about Adonalsium becoming a Cognitive Shadow, I'm curious if he stuck around or decided to just move on, and if the answer is the former rather than the latter, is it possible that he is the 17th Shard that the organization named itself after? I mean, technically Tanavast's CS is still a fragment of the Shard of Honor. It's just one without any investiture.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Amanuensis

[VirtuousTraveller]

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My theory is that the intent of each Shard is also the primary purpose or motivation that each particular Vessel helped kill Adonalsium.

Ah, like Rayse agreed to the plan and "splintered" Adonalsium out of a spirit Hatred, while Leras agreed to the plan and "splintered" Adonalsium out of a spirit of Preservation.

This is a new concept that I hadn't considered before - that the intents were originated in the Vessels and not from Adonalsium itself.

I think this makes more sense than a mass personality split.  If this is the case, then there are some odd personality traits that I wouldn't necessarily consider normal - yeah, Autonomy or Devotion or Honor could fit this model, but Ruin or Endowment?  Benevolence would make more sense for a personality trait, rather than the concept of Endowment.

[emailanimal]

8 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Why hasn't he fought it off or tried to save Yolen? I can't answer this exactly.

Have you seen how indecisive  Szed got when he acquired the powers of just two Shards?  Now think about holding ALL Intents at the same time...  It is a lot of power, but it is also a lot of conflicting Intents to placate at the same time...

So, do not just assume that Adonalsium was active just because he was all-powerful.

 

Edit: Read a bit further and saw that you are arriving to the same conclusion. Well played.

Edited December 1, 2016 by emailanimal

[emailanimal]

So, I have a general comment and a specific one.  

The general observation is this. I believe there is somewhere a note from Brandon who says that indeed, *these* 16 Intents are not necessarily what a Shattering would have resolved into: that is, under different circumstances and with a different crowd of future Vessels, the Intents could've been different. Last winter I posted a theory regarding there being "atomic" sub-Intents, and the Shards being constructs of these sub-Intents.  It seems like you are thinking in the same direction.  However, I do think you may be looking at matching the  Intent of the Shard and the "intent" of the Vessel at Shattering time in a too literal a way.  I also am not certain that I agree with some of your characterizations of  Vessels.  For example, you make Cultivation to be rather benign, yet we know that she was Tanavast's lover (an elderly lady, eh?) and that her power can be used in relatively cruel ways (see: Nightwatcher, The).

On the specific topic of Autonomy:

 

9 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Autonomy: Based on what we know of Bavadin, she really doesn't like people who use magic. The Kertzians on Taldain have a deep hatred for Sand Masters, and she appears to be interfering with other worlds and encouraging their inhabitants to hate those with magic, if not the Shards themselves. For example, I believe that Bavadin has hijacked Idrian Austrism, hence their recent (300 years) opposition towards Awakening and Returned. I suspect she affected Shu-Dereth in a similar way, which is the driving factor in why wants to conquer the world, and perhaps why the Dakhor Monks want to slaughter the Elantrians as well. There's also the business with Trell on Scadrial. Ultimately I think Bavadin's reason for helping Shatter Adonalsium was because she wanted to have a Cosmere autonomous from Gods, which is somewhat ironic, since she's apparently going around pretending to be them.

 

I share similar suspicions: in the past I called such religions "Abomination cults" (treating Investiture use as abomination); they can also be called "prohibitionist". However, what  I disagree with is in your (implicit) implication that this is ALL Bavadin is doing.  She is responsible for Taldain's investiture and hence, for Investing the sand ,for example.

I think, the picture is quite different. Based on Brandon's word that Bavadin  has oodles of personas and makes up pantheons of herself, I suspect that she is playing a divide-and-conquer game to her own ends. That is, my theory is that:

(a) Bavadin supports Prohibitionist cults NOT because she is somehow opposed to the use of Investiture by humans, but because it serves as an excellent check on the powers of the respective planets' Shards (or whatever is left of them).  That is: her reasons for supporting Prohibitionist religions are political, not ideological.

(b) Bavadin's MO is "set the goal, then figure out what the best means of achieving it are". She appears to largely do it by creating, co-opting and possibly outright corrupting religions, and by making the religious adherents the chief executors of her will.  But it appears that she is literally not above setting up two conflicting religions where she is behind both of the Gods/ pantheons.

Also, isn't Ambition a "she"? 

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by emailanimal

[Pagerunner]

5 hours ago, emailanimal said:

For example, you make Cultivation to be rather benign, yet we know that she was Tanavast's lover (an elderly lady, eh?) and that her power can be used in relatively cruel ways (see: Nightwatcher, The).

Can you source her relationship with Tanavast? As far as I know, they went to Roshar together, but anything beyond that is speculation. I think "cruel" is a bit of an unfair description, like the Nightwatcher is capricious in what she does, trying to twist peoples' requests to give them the worst thing possible like an evil genie. That's one possible interpretation, but some have thought that what she gives actually benefits people, even though they don't understand it and view it as a curse. Which is a very mother-like thing to do. (You'll eat your vegetables, and like them!)

5 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Also, isn't Ambition a "she"? 

Are you thinking of a Reddit post where someone (I think it was @Argent) asked about Ambition, and Brandon said he'd be tight-lipped about her? I'm pretty sure he was answering about Autonomy, since that's what the rest of the comments in that chain were about.

[skaa]

6 hours ago, emailanimal said:

I believe there is somewhere a note from Brandon who says that indeed, *these* 16 Intents are not necessarily what a Shattering would have resolved into: that is, under different circumstances and with a different crowd of future Vessels, the Intents could've been different.

Correct. Here is that WoB:

 

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QUESTION

If Adonalsium shattered with intent, will he always shatter to the same shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is plausible that he could shattered in a different way.

QUESTION

So it could've been different Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that's plausible.

 

 

I don't really have anything else to comment about @Amanuensis's theory (that the others haven't already mentioned) except to say that the main idea is plausible. Have an upvote!

[Argent]

@Pagerunner, here:

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Bavadin is awesome. One regret of finally moving on from White Sand (and doing the graphic novel, instead of doing an entire trilogy myself) is because I won't get to show her off as a character for a while. It should still happen, mind you, but I have enough on my plate right now that I just can't do it all.

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[–]ArgentSun 4 points 2 days ago 

Eh, it's alright. The more we wait to see her, the more practice writing you will have when you do write her, and the more awesome she will be to us Are we going to see her in White Sand first though, or elsewhere?

I've also been talking with a couple of friends about Ambition, who happens to be a Shard I love unconditionally just because of his?her? mandate. So I should ask - how tight-lipped do you intend to be with information about it? Can we prod for a little bit of trivia, or is it too early for that?

On a different note, when can we expect this year's State of Sanderson?

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[–]mistborn [+1][F] 11 points 2 days ago 

I'm going to be pretty tight-lipped for now. Let's at least let White Sand finish first--you will find her in there, though her touch on the story (directly) is light. She prefers to allow her personas to become the focus of attention.

State of the Sanderson should be later in the month. Once I've got Oathbringer done, and well into revisions.

So it does sound like he was talking about Autonomy. Unless it is Ambition's touch on Taldain that's light, but I don't find that very likely.

[Djarskublar]

See, the thing is, I have always hated this theory. It seems like every new Sharder comes here like 'Hoid OP. Hoid remake Adonalsium. Hoid my friend. Gurk.' Not that this necessarily applies to the OP, it was well written, and certainly the best argument for this theory I have seen.

The thing is, I have never seen even a passing fair justification for this idea from a writing perspective. It isn't a plot that would be any good. It sounds like the plot to some lame shonen jump thing. 'Collect all the (16, 7 whatever) things and everything is better'... Lame. The more Sanderson writes, the more convinced I get that this just isn't going to happen. It's kinda... stupid, really. Hoid isn't trying to reforge Adonalsium. It makes no sense considering his actions thus far. If he was, he would have stuck around and picked up Preservation.

The body of this theory is regarding how the Intents were determined. The way it is presented would require all the people present to be extremely one dimensional. Other people have pointed out the flaws with your reasoning fairly well, so I will let their points stand, and ask this: why did the Shards leave Yolen? As far as I know, the fain life will still be an issue later. It won't be dealt with in the first section of Dragonsteel. That is a fairly safe bet, though I could easily be wrong.

[Bromo_Sapien]

I love the theory on the distribution of the Shards (not sure I buy the "Hoid Reforges Adonalsium" part as much. I remember a WoB disproving this, though I could be mistaken). I don't think it necessarily makes them one-dimensional, just gives them all a primary motivation. Think of it as a heist movie like The Sting where everyone has a different motivation for taking the bad guy for all his money. 

 

16 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

• Devotion: It's possible she's just reaaally devoted to Yolen, or whatever country she comes from on it, to the point that she'd kill god to save it. Not as fun an answer, though.

This makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider how the AonDor is connected to the land of Sel.

 

A few of the others:

I wonder if Tanavast joined to act as a balance to Rayse, to make sure that A was splintered honorably, the "right way," so to speak. Maybe he felt he was honor bound to do what he could to rein in Rayse's hatred and keep the focus on destroying A in order to effect positive, honorable change. 

 

Also, I wonder if the initial "Intent" of the Shards were always "named" what we see them as now. For example, what if Ati's shard wasn't always named Ruin but was initially something like "Change" (still a clear counter to Preservation) but Ati quickly came to see Change as Destruction (he sees how the change the resulted from A's shattering blew up in their faces and forced them to leave Yolen; maybe fainlife flourished after the Shattering instead of retreating as they planned). When Ruin talks to Kel in SH, his description of himself more focuses on change and how Preservation would keep everything the same more than it does the destruction of the world (though he talks about that as well). That would explain him being a nice man before acquiring Ruin: a slight change of perspective. It would also explain the growth of the Shards influence over time: if the Shard starts out malleable but grows more firm as the Vessel's idea of the force solidifies. This (extremely) recent WoB from yesterday's signing lends some credence to idea of perspective influencing the Shard's Intent (Thanks to @Necarion for the unbelievable timeliness):

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Necarion: Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the Intent is open to many interpretations? 
Brandon: Yes they do. So, the Vessel’s mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them.  You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.
Necarion: So Saddeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?
Brandon: Yes he would.

 

[emailanimal]

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Can you source her relationship with Tanavast?

Yes. It's an old WoB:

 

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INTERVIEW: May 22nd, 2013

Rithmatist Signing Report - StormAtlas (Paraphrased)

STORMATLAS

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

Onto the the rest of it:

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 I think "cruel" is a bit of an unfair description, like the Nightwatcher is capricious in what she does, trying to twist peoples' requests to give them the worst thing possible like an evil genie.

This may be a fair observation, although I do consider "You will eat your vegetables, dammit, even if you hate that spinach" to be a bit on the cruel side.  But I think the overall view that because she is Tanavast's lover/romantic interest, and because she fought Odium with him, she is this fluffy cuddly creature who likes to grow plants and distribute chickens around Roshar is a bit one-sided.  Her stamp is most evident in Shinovar, and what happened to Szeth is orders of magnitude more cruel than what happened to Kaladin.  

 Mark my words, Cultivation is quite capable of dealing serious damage, defending herself, and, in general being terrifying (remember, Tanavast perished, she survived).  Either as a strong mother figure, or as a twisted joker figure, she is still dangerous.  You want to be on her good side.

 

3 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Are you thinking of a Reddit post where someone

No. I am thinking that I saw (don't have the text in front of me now) a reference to Ambition as "her" or "she" in Arcanium Unbound (don't remember the exact wording, but I recall having a "oh, another female Shard" thought).  But maybe I *am* confusing with the more striking "ho, sh*t, Bavadin's a SHE!" thought that I also had.

 

[Rasarr]

It seems that you and I were kind of circling similar topics  when it comes to fainlife, @Amanuensis.  I really like this theory - it provides a pretty good justification as for why the Shards ended up the way they did. 

I don't think many conflicting Intents would render Adonalsium immobile. After all, humans have conflicting emotions, and yet this doesn't make us incapable of doing anything - not to mention that one of the Letters notes that Rayse is this bad because he lacks other intents that gave Adonalsium's wrath context, which suggests that Big A wasn't just spending his time sitting and twiddling his thumbs in indecision while fain grew around him. 

Cultivation is decidedly not a wholeheartedly "good" Intent. After all, if you want to cultivate a garden, you have to tear out the weeds. I'm pretty sure she can be very cruel when she needs to.

[imriel452]

I would like to raise a note of caution when discussing fainlife- and it is because of Edgedancer in AU.

Brandon will often edit and adapt elements from older novels, such as taking Decay from 'The Aether of Night' (it is suggested that an Aether is in the Worldhoppers collection in WoR) and turning him into Ruin for 'Mistborn'

In Edgedancer, Lift meets Arclo the Dysian Aimian, member of the Sleepless and associate of Axies the Collector. Arclo refers to his 'Hordelings', with the specialisms they possess.

Brandon, many years ago, wrote 'Star's End', a hard sci-fi unpublished novel that he is not fond of now, looking back! In this book, there are a race of aliens known simply as 'Climaxi's Horde', which have specialisms, both simple and very specific.

 

To me, it seems clear that Brandon has recycled this idea, and that brings me back to the original point.

 

I am not 100% sure of the canonic status of The Liar of Partinel at the moment, and while it does refer to fainlife within the text, I would probably (and personally) suggest that we treat the reference in AU as the only canonical reference for the moment!

[emailanimal]

43 minutes ago, imriel452 said:

I am not 100% sure of the canonic status of The Liar of Partinel at the moment,

The Liar is not canonic, but fainlife appears to be bigger than The Liar: that is: it appears to have paid a significant role in the overall Yolen ark leading up to the Shattering. Also, the mention of fainlife in UA confirms that it is part of the Cosmere. We know that the specifics might change, but I feel like we can use our knowledge of what fainlife is based on the text of the Liar for speculative purposes.

[skaa]

While we should acknowledge that the unpublished works are not canon, I think it's okay for people to theorize based on anything Cosmere that Brandon wrote, as long as they don't use unpublished works to put down other people's theories. If certain elements from Liar of Partinel or Aether of Night turn out to no longer exist and that the theories based on them are wrong, as someone with lots of wrong Cosmere theories I can truthfully say that it's okay and that it's not the end of the world. But if those elements turn out to still be important, well, wouldn't that be awesome?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Ookla the Insipid

[DSC01]

Without commenting on the theory as a whole--because there is a great deal of merit, even if I disagree with individual points--I do have to stay that I completely disagree with the notion that Adonalsium was inactive by virtue of containing so many opposing Intents. More Shards should equal more ability to act.

In the case of Harmony, this is somewhat disguised by the fact that his two Shards are diametrically opposed to each other, but the creation of Scadrial happened only because Preservation and Ruin collaborated. As their relationship deteriorated, Preservation increasingly could only strive to keep things the same, while Ruin worked only to break it all down to dust. However, Harmony could create something new all on his own. A new creation that balanced preservation and ruin in its life cycle might be very much in line with Harmony's Intent.

Now, if Sazed picked up another Shard, he would have much more freedom to act because the new Intent would interact with both Preservation and Ruin. Instead of being ruled by two equal but opposite urges, another desire would come into play. Say, Ambition--I think we can imagine, even knowing next to nothing about the Shard, that Ambition would not clash much with either Preservation or Ruin, and might even serve as a bridge between the two warring Intents.

Of course, per WoB, if Sazed died, he would not drop Preservation and Ruin. He would drop Harmony. The original Shards exist only in the sense that they are the material composing the new Shard and its Intent can only be a combination of theirs. This means that, in Adonalsium, we did not have 16 Shards balancing each other; we had one power, composed of many traits. That makes action much, much easier.

Instead of singular obsessions, you have, "A part of me wants things to stay the way they are now forever, but another part of me wants to burn my whole life down just so things won't be the same. But then there's another part of me that really loves the people in my life, and I know that desperately trying to keep everything the same and burning it all down would hurt them. Another part of me really wants to be independent and not worry too much about what those people might think, but of course, there's also a part of me that wants to give of myself to others, and that makes me not want to remain too aloof. So, I guess I'll cut the things that need to go out of my life, keep the things that are working, take care of others when it's healthy, be fiercely independent when that is healthy, and use love to guide me in how to best achieve that." Boom! Preservation, Ruin, Devotion, Autonomy, and Endowment come together and make a semi-functional personality. Eleven more would just improve that.

[Exalted]

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"Though her touch on the story (directly) is light.

Doesn't the sunlight from Taldain's sun recharge the sand with Investiture? Which (assuming the Investiture is coming from Autonomy) would make Bavadin's touch on the story literally light? 

[Steeldancer]

Wow this theory is amazing. I love it. Besides what the others have mentioned, I am a big fan of this idea. Especially hoid not being a shard because he didn't want adonalsium to die. Does anybody know who killed ambition in the end if it wasnt Odium?