ewee33 Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 I don't know if anyone has talked about this yet but I've noticed this and I thought I might as well share. So, in Warbreaker, we see that when the Returned come back from the cognitive realm (moving from the cognitive realm to the physical realm), their memories of their previous lives are lost, or at least damaged. Also, in The Stormlight Archive, when spren come from the cognitive realm to the physical realm, their memories are also damaged. So we see a trend that when a person (or entity? I don't know what a spren would be labeled under) goes from the cognitive realm to the physical realm, their memories are damaged. And this is an effect across the entire cosmere, not just on a particular planet, because it happens on two separate worlds. In Mistborn: Secret History, Kelsier is in the cognitive realm. But, it is implied at the end of Secret History that Kelsier has found a way to come back to the physical realm. Also, in Bands of Mourning, we see someone (almost definitely kelsier) in the coppermind given to Waxillium by Hoid. So, Kelsier has traveled from the cognitive realm to the physical realm. Does this mean that, like in Warbreaker and The Stormlight Archive, Kelsier has lost his memory? This would mean Kelsier's activities in the second mistborn series are performed with little to no memory of his previous life, unless he has found some way to counteract this effect. This raises some interesting questions. How do others, such as Hoid, who travel using the cognitive realm, retain their memories? What about Soulcasters such as Shallan and Jasnah, who briefly visit the cognitive realm? The only link I can make is that the person must actually die and become separated from their body for them to lose their memory. However, this doesn't explain why spren follow this pattern as well. Also, something I just thought of while writing this, how did Kelsier get his old body back? Unrelated, but still interesting. If you have anything to add, or if you have a theory or know the answers to any of my questions, please reply. Thanks! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savanorn Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 Haha well, firstly, you might have wanted to post this in the Secret History Spoilers area. On topic, this might be why Kelsier has spiked his eye; either to retain his identity and memory or to transition to the physical world or to move himself to the physical realm. Secondly, as to the issue of losing memory when going between realms...I don't think this is necessarily an issue of transitioning itself but more an issue of how and what. To clarify, with Returned the body actually dies (the tie to the physical is lost) and the spirit is...altered...and returned. This would seem like an issue of "how". Contrast to Hoid and Khriss who retain their physical bodies throughout the whole process. With Spren (or bondspren at least), I feel it is a similar issue. They generally don't exist in the physical realm save for when they cross the bounds and in the physical realm they need to bond with a person to gain and retain cognition. This is sort of the issue of "what". Contrast to Jasnah and Shallan who have and retain their bodies. In both the case of Returned and bondspren the transitioner doesn't initially have a tie to the physical realm and must make one. For worldhoppers, and Soulcasters, they retain theirs and need only to cross between realms. That's my thoughts. Finally for Kelsier again, we don't know how he made a body. I would suspect it isn't his original body but rather one made to resemble it...either by accident or design. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewee33 Posted November 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 8 minutes ago, Savanorn said: Haha well, firstly, you might have wanted to post this in the Secret History Spoilers area. On topic, this might be why Kelsier has spiked his eye; either to retain his identity and memory or to transition to the physical world or to move himself to the physical realm. Secondly, as to the issue of losing memory when going between realms...I don't think this is necessarily an issue of transitioning itself but more an issue of how and what. To clarify, with Returned the body actually dies (the tie to the physical is lost) and the spirit is...altered...and returned. This would seem like an issue of "how". Contrast to Hoid and Khriss who retain their physical bodies throughout the whole process. With Spren (or bondspren at least), I feel it is a similar issue. They generally don't exist in the physical realm save for when they cross the bounds and in the physical realm they need to bond with a person to gain and retain cognition. This is sort of the issue of "what". Contrast to Jasnah and Shallan who have and retain their bodies. In both the case of Returned and bondspren the transitioner doesn't initially have a tie to the physical realm and must make one. For worldhoppers, and Soulcasters, they retain theirs and need only to cross between realms. That's my thoughts. Finally for Kelsier again, we don't know how he made a body. I would suspect it isn't his original body but rather one made to resemble it...either by accident or design. Wow, yeah, everything you said makes perfect sense. Sorry for posting it in the wrong section, I'm new to the site. I hadn't thought about the spike relating to this, but that makes a lot of sense! Thanks for your help! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savanorn Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, ewee33 said: Wow, yeah, everything you said makes perfect sense. Sorry for posting it in the wrong section, I'm new to the site. I hadn't thought about the spike relating to this, but that makes a lot of sense! Thanks for your help! No need to apologise, I've read SH As to the rest...why thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 27, 2016 Report Share Posted November 27, 2016 Since Kell seems to be recalling the appearance of the Skaa hovels in the coppermind, I would say he does seem to remember. Also Spoiler He has a role to play in the modern and future trilogies- and a not-insignificant one either. And since that role will involve completing the character journey he began in the first trilogy, it feels illogical for him to lose his memory as that would simply be resetting him. This is what I extrapolated from the afterword to SH in AU anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) Speaking of Kelsier "losing his memory" and that nicrosil/copper coin that Wax gets to tap to replay what appears to be a Kelsier-as-Nascent-Sovereign memory... 1 - Filling a coppermind with a memory actually "unloads" it, right? Like, Kelsier (presumably) doesn't have it in his own head as long as it's been pushed out into a coppermind? 2 - Now that Wax has tapped the nicrosil on the coin to temporarily become an Archivist, and then tapped the coppermind to replay that memory, ... now what? Did he retain enough Archivism from the nicrosilmind to put the memory back into the coin, or is the coin now just a coin, Wax just the same old Wax, but he has a bit someone else's memory in his head now? (That must be kind of a weird feeling) Edited December 16, 2016 by robardin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 1 hour ago, robardin said: 1 - Filling a coppermind with a memory actually "unloads" it, right? Like, Kelsier (presumably) doesn't have it in his own head as long as it's been pushed out into a coppermind? There is a (not at all confirmed) theory that Compounding copper can be used to copy a memory in some way. So potentially he could still have it. If he doesn't, that would be very interesting, as that might mean it was something he didn't want to remember. 1 hour ago, robardin said: 2 - Now that Wax has tapped the nicrosil on the coin to temporarily become an Archivist, and then tapped the coppermind to replay that memory, ... now what? Did he retain enough Archivism from the nicrosilmind to put the memory back into the coin, or is the coin now just a coin, Wax just the same old Wax, but he has a bit someone else's memory in his head now? (That must be kind of a weird feeling) I doubt Wax would put the memory back. But we don't know if he tapped the whole Mind (after all, the scene cuts off when Wax is shocked by Kelsier's arms or whatever - the memory may have continued. But that would also mean he continuously tapped the memory as he "experienced" it, which doesn't seem to be how pure information is stored and retrieved. So maybe he did tap the whole thing at once, but we only got to read up until the moment Wax was shocked. But it's weird, because memories tend not to be "stories" as such... I dunno). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletSabre Posted December 17, 2016 Report Share Posted December 17, 2016 We DO have a WOB about the copper coin, that Kelsier "has things he would like to forget".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletSabre Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Found the relevant WOB - From the Jordancon 8 Signing Quote Question Did Kelsier fill copperminds for any reason other than sharing knowledge? Would he want to forget certain memories? Brandon Sanderson Yes and Yes. Those may not be causally related. You asked two separate questions and got two separate answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted December 23, 2016 Report Share Posted December 23, 2016 Personally I always thought the second question was self evident. We all have things we'd like to forget. Personally, I think Kell would love to forget the Pits. When I reread some is Saze's scenes in HoA it seemed as though storing a memory doesn't completely delete it. It seems to leave an echo behind. Memories are stored in multiple forms. So you might remember storing an experience. You might not remember the actual experience but you would remember thinking about those events. Also, storing memories and information may work differently. We really need more information on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exalted Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 I think we have a WoB stating that Kelsier's eye-spike doesn't grant any notable powers--which, considering Brandon, could mean that it allows him to retain his memory, since that isn't technically a "power" in the normal sense of Hemalurgic spikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 I think that was deliberately misleading; powers is only one thing Hemalurgy can give. Since it is really stapling SDNA to the individual it could be doing a lot of other things. For one, the spike has altered the shape of his brain. Also, granting any of the human attributes might not be notable as a 'power' but could have very significant effects. its also misleading in another way; Kell is already Mistborn. Any allomantic power the spike grants would just give him a boost to that power; it's not noticeable with a Mistborn. For someone who didn't already have the power granted it would be very notable. So I read this as saying that the spike does not grant Kelsier any ability he did not already have. To put it another way, the spike has nothing to do with his Feruchemy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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