[All Spoilers] Brandon Can't Save Roshar as an Author

[ScarletSabre]

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 10:24 AM, nervousnerd said:

Well, I think other pairings would lead to more interesting effects. It is somewhat logical what Harmony is from his components. Autonimous Hatred is not so easy to extrapolate. 

Self Loathing perhaps? The hatred of all focused on the sense of autonomy and self.

[Steelheart]

On 11/18/2016 at 3:17 PM, Stark said:

I also don't think we will see Odium Splintered.  Odium has been too vague, too indirect a threat to our main protagonists to be splintered just yet.  Especially seeing as what ever counter-stroke Honor launched at his death seems to have successfully trapped Odium on Braize.  

 

We saw Ruin die by the hands of the story's heroes because he was a direct and present threat to them.  Roshar's heroes have only heard his name in passing as a concept, and are only just learning that their God is dead.  While the last three books of the first half present more than enough time for Odium to become the main threat that is destroyed, I feel that is unlikely.

 

Far more likely, to my mind, is that he will manage to get free by the end of book four, at the earliest.  In book five, a minor (In the grand scale of the Cosmere at large) victory from the Heroes will force Odium to reconsider Roshar, and Cultivation as his next target, leading him to decide to choose another target whose Shardworld is unaware of the Shards, and unready for his intervention.  This will give the Rosharans the time to forget about him, like they did in the 4000+ years after the Last Desolation, while they clean up the mess left by his escape, and whatever counterstroke he delivers when he exits.  Maybe severely wounding, but not managing to kill, Cultivation - leaving her in a similar state to Preservation at the debut of Mistborn.  

 

The second set of five will have a Roshar that is far more cosmically aware, as they will not waste their respite by forgetting, but far less defended, as Honor is still splintered, and Cultivation is badly wounded - bearly able to protect the world if Odium returns, or quite possibly looking for a newer, less bound by intent vessel to take her place to defend the World from Odium's return.

 

That's my thought.  I don't think Odium will be splintered before we have a chance to see him directly assert his influence unhindered on a world, and I don't think Roshar will die, but it will not survive unscathed.

 

Edit:  I always have a last thought right after I post - Another option is that Odium will be defeated and killed in this series, but rather than splinter and leave all those slivers and splinters of Hate all over the Cosmere, Cultivation will take the shard onto herself to try to mitigate it and change the intent, like Harmony.  Only in the space between the two series, the mixture of Cultivation and Odium will corrupt her into something more dangerous than Odium, and more free to act than Harmony, a being that exists solely to cultivate and grow the Hatred of the Universe, becoming the far scarier villain for Stormlight Pentology part 2.

Wow! That's an awesome theory, and one I think will end up unfolding one way or another. However, I can't see Odium leaving Roshar; the harder it is to get something, the more frustrated you get, and the more your hatred for it grows (there's also a WOB where BS explains the difference b/n Ruin and Odium: If both had to get through a door, Ruin would destroy the door, while Odium would simply keep hitting the door until it broke over time). I don't see a scenario where Odium leaves Roshar without being merged with another Shard. But an Odium/Cultivation combo is terrifying!

(quick thought.....what if the Odium/Cultivation shard resurrected Honor, and absorbed it as well? With the power of 2 shards, maybe the Cultivation side could "regrow" Honor, and w/o a vessel, merge with O/C to turn into... something unpredictable)

another thought: I believe as we continue through time, more and more Shards will be converging, and the larger the numbers grow, the closer they get to the original Adonalsium

(Also, for those who are wondering how Odium would corrupt the other Shards, just look in WoR at how he changes the Parshendi Rhythms... Skepticism to Spite, Resolve to Ridicule, etc)

 

[Stark]

Glad you approve @Steelheart, I personally have a hard time coming up with a more terrifying outcome than Cultivated Hatred as a Shard combo.  And it would have to be Cultivation absorbing Odium, not the other way around, as Brandon has already specified that Odium shatters Shards precisely to avoid picking them up or letting others have them.

 

As an extra little thought supporting this, Brandon has expressed his fondness for taking classic Fantasy ideas and turning them on their heads(EX: The king becoming the beggar [Elantris], The Dark Lord winning [Mistborn], a God who disbelieves his own divinity [Warbreaker]) I can see Cultivation taking up Odium to safe guard the Cosmere, but being corrupted instead as a Lord of the Rings analog, where Galadriel didn't realize the danger and took the one Ring from Frodo when offered.

 

Galadriel/Cultivation+Odium: " In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"

 

That is probably the scariest "oh crap" moment I can come up with on Roshar to end the first Pentology.

[Yata]

The main problem is that Cultivation will know almost to the 100% that the Odium Shard will corrupt her...She is a Vessel who kept a Shard of Adonalsium for 10 thousands years. She will have a perfect Realmatic Knowledge and a good future sight...there is no way she will not be able to predict her own fall if she took Odium.

[Steelheart]

52 minutes ago, Stark said:

Glad you approve @Steelheart, I personally have a hard time coming up with a more terrifying outcome than Cultivated Hatred as a Shard combo.  And it would have to be Cultivation absorbing Odium, not the other way around, as Brandon has already specified that Odium shatters Shards precisely to avoid picking them up or letting others have them.

 

As an extra little thought supporting this, Brandon has expressed his fondness for taking classic Fantasy ideas and turning them on their heads(EX: The king becoming the beggar [Elantris], The Dark Lord winning [Mistborn], a God who disbelieves his own divinity [Warbreaker]) I can see Cultivation taking up Odium to safe guard the Cosmere, but being corrupted instead as a Lord of the Rings analog, where Galadriel didn't realize the danger and took the one Ring from Frodo when offered.

 

Galadriel/Cultivation+Odium: " In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!"

 

That is probably the scariest "oh crap" moment I can come up with on Roshar to end the first Pentology.

Nice reference! That scene was the first time I realized how corrupting The One Ring could be....can't wait to see what happens!!!

[Steelheart]

50 minutes ago, Yata said:

The main problem is that Cultivation will know almost to the 100% that the Odium Shard will corrupt her...She is a Vessel who kept a Shard of Adonalsium for 10 thousands years. She will have a perfect Realmatic Knowledge and a good future sight...there is no way she will not be able to predict her own fall if she took Odium.

Unless, of course She decides that picking up his Shard is the only way to stop it...otherwise, another vessel will just pick it up and the same thing will happen as Sel...

[teknopathetic]

Do we think you need to pick up a splintered shard? Sel seems to be okay-ish considering (though the Dor looks like it might go nuclear at some point)

 

Why not just leave it destroyed?

[Steelheart]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Do we think you need to pick up a splintered shard? Sel seems to be okay-ish considering (though the Dor looks like it might go nuclear at some point)

 

Why not just leave it destroyed?

Because things are not ok - the magic system is so fragmented, there are FIVE distinct channels for the Dor... not to mention we have no idea what damage the Skaze are doing. In addition, a Splintered Shard leaves that world open for another Shard to manipulate (see how Ruin took advantage of Preservations weak state... and Preservation was still whole) 

[Jondesu]

20 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

Because things are not ok - the magic system is so fragmented, there are FIVE distinct channels for the Dor... not to mention we have no idea what damage the Skaze are doing. In addition, a Splintered Shard leaves that world open for another Shard to manipulate (see how Ruin took advantage of Preservations weak state... and Preservation was still whole) 

To be fair, I'm not sure that we know whether Sel's magic was distinctly regional prior to the splintering of D&D; I tend to think it was, even if it was different. The Skaze aren't necessarily causing harm to anything except as bad guys (so no more than the Fjordell), so I'm not sure why they'd be an issue.

I expect there are a number of people who would like to pick up one or both of those Shards if they could, and unsplinter them, but that would be borne from a desire for power for most of them, and for some a desire to do good. The planet's magic doesn't seem broken to me, though, now that Elantris is fixed especially.

[Steelheart]

Just now, Jondesu said:

To be fair, I'm not sure that we know whether Sel's magic was distinctly regional prior to the splintering of D&D; I tend to think it was, even if it was different. The Skaze aren't necessarily causing harm to anything except as bad guys (so no more than the Fjordell), so I'm not sure why they'd be an issue.

I expect there are a number of people who would like to pick up one or both of those Shards if they could, and unsplinter them, but that would be borne from a desire for power for most of them, and for some a desire to do good. The planet's magic doesn't seem broken to me, though, now that Elantris is fixed especially.

I see your point on the other things, but we have a WoB somewhere that the Skaze are evil and actively driving the Fjordell to become more violent. 

[Jondesu]

2 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

I see your point on the other things, but we have a WoB somewhere that the Skaze are evil and actively driving the Fjordell to become more violent. 

That doesn't mean that they're magically evil. We don't even know what would happen to them, if anything, if the splintering was undone.

[Landis963]

32 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

Because things are not ok - the magic system is so fragmented, there are FIVE distinct channels for the Dor... not to mention we have no idea what damage the Skaze are doing. In addition, a Splintered Shard leaves that world open for another Shard to manipulate (see how Ruin took advantage of Preservations weak state... and Preservation was still whole) 

 Upwards of 5: AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, Bloodsealing, and the potions Hrathen used are all methods of Dor-coding.  Which means that any nation that fits whatever criteria leads the Dor to work there will get its own method.  (I suspect that the criteria was "had a strong enough Identity at the time of the Splintering" but I'm having difficulty thinking of a question that would confirm or debunk the theory)

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Steelheart said:

Because things are not ok - the magic system is so fragmented, there are FIVE distinct channels for the Dor... not to mention we have no idea what damage the Skaze are doing. In addition, a Splintered Shard leaves that world open for another Shard to manipulate (see how Ruin took advantage of Preservations weak state... and Preservation was still whole) 

Ok, what's the matter in having a magic System fragmented ? About the manipulation of other Shards....It's not really different from the probably hundreds of minor shardworld without a Shard, and honestly...If you want to create a mess, did you choose a planet near a guy big as you that may piss off and couteract ?

Another little point, we don't actually know how Breize is now...But I don't think it's a good place after thousands of year with Odium, would it really be a tragedy if the place remains awful ?

[Stark]

19 hours ago, Yata said:

The main problem is that Cultivation will know almost to the 100% that the Odium Shard will corrupt her...She is a Vessel who kept a Shard of Adonalsium for 10 thousands years. She will have a perfect Realmatic Knowledge and a good future sight...there is no way she will not be able to predict her own fall if she took Odium.

Yes, she likely knows that.  But we have to look at what the least awful option is, because she may not have a better choice.  Note:  These options do not account for anything happening on Scadrial, with whatever Trell is.

 

1) Odium dies, and they Splinter the shard.  Upshot - Odium intent is not being driven by any cognitive force.  Downside - The shard's splinters become evil spren that run rampant, each seeking out compatible people to bond - leading to rampant evil Spren and possibly an Odium flavored Stormfather to complement the existing one who already wants to erase humanity.  This seems like an option to turn Roshar into an apocalyptic waste land.  Overall Cosmere is better for the lack of Odium's influence.

2)Odium dies, a non-shard bearer takes up the shard.  This would require someone who is already consumed with Hate to be compatible (See Secret Histories for why you need a compatible person)  Cue in an Anakin Skywalker, and in a few years we have a new Odium who is less experienced than Cultivation, but still hell bent on killing everything.  This is a neutral option that gives the heroes a chance to rebuild and prepare.  The downside is the new Odium could be worse than the first, more willing to take up more power, and would be more free to act in different directions than their ruling intent until the shard "settles."  Overall Cosmere, nothing changes much.

3)Odium dies, Cultivation takes the shard into herself.  She may hate Odium enough after Tanavast's death to be able to do this.  This option offers the most diverse possibilities, as we do not know what the combination of Cultivation and Odium will produce.  It could become a balance of something that combines both, yet is neither, like Harmony.  Or the intent of Odium could corrupt her into something far worse that wants to continue to grow and consume more shards (Corrupted Galadriel).  Overall Cosmere is either significantly safer or significantly scarier.

 

Of these three options, (1) I find highly negative for Roshar, if not the rest of the universe, and that may be Hoid's preferrence - burn this world to save the others, as he implied to Dalinar. But I do not see the Rosharan heroes fight to save their world, only to let it burn. (2) Seems least likely to me, as it solves nothing.  You exchange the devil you know for the one you don't, hoping you can take advantage of the transition period (I fell the need to reference Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series at this point, specifically "For the Love of Evil")  I don't see this happening.

 

(3) Seems to offer the most potential for hope, and hope is something that requires Cultivation.  I can see them taking the risk that she will be able to shift the intent of Odium when merging it to Cultivation.  I can see a Cosmere where it helps.  The drawback is that if it fails, it fails spectacularly.  I can see Cultivation seeing the two options before her, like Electrum shadows, and deciding to Hope, gambling on the coin toss rather than burning her world by covering it in Splinters of Hate, or by taking a repreive while a new Odium grows into their power.

 

So I agree with you @Yata, she will see the bad coming, but I think she will also see the good.  And I think this will present the best of a host of bad options.  Cultivation's corruption is only likely if there isn't alreadya bigger bad out there to take Odium's place(glaring at Trell a bit here, whatever it is) IFF the result of the first Pentology is that Odium loses and dies.

 

If Odium wins, or is driven off and doesn't die, well all my speculation will have less substance than a Windspren on a becalmed day.  Still fun to theorize though.