The Ones Above

[soyperson]

Not sure if anyone has pointed this out before...

Disclaimer: I have not read Sixth of the Dusk yet, so this is all from internet-gathered information. Also, possible spoilers ahead. 

 

So, in Sixth of the Dusk, the people of First of the Sun are visited by a spacefaring race that, apparently, we have met before.

From the Coppermind: "They have space ships, and the natives of First of the Sun believe that they "live in the Stars". They have small handheld devices that can map out the current locations of the Aviar. It has a limited range. They also have a large device that can locate Aviar and print out a map marking where they are with dots. The large device can also translates languages, including the language of the Ones Above. It does not need a power source. They have other devices that they are not willing to show the people of First of the Sun."

After reading this, I thought 'Well gosh, bleeder, doesn't this remind you of something?' And then it hit me: the devices sound like they can harness the Metallic Arts of Scadrial! The "small handheld devices" and the "large device" that seek out Aviar remind me of Bronze Seeking, as Aviar have Investiture (or so I assume; also, Aviar have powers suspiciously extremely reminiscent of some Allomantic abilities), and the second device, which "translates languages" reminds me of Connection. 

After reading this, I went on the Chronology page on the Coppermind, and found this:

? - Sixth of the Dusk - Just prior to the era of the forthcoming sci-fi Mistborn trilogy

I think that the Ones Above are spacefaring Scadrians. 

This demands further study.

So... Thoughts? Angles? Impressions?

[Yata]

Actually Bleeder is the main (but not only) theory the Comunity developed for the Ones Above's identity.

There is also another little clue (indeed it simply suggest a possibiilty) that may point to them. I will put in under spoiler tag:

Spoiler

One of the One Above "died" for an incident (If I remember right, He suffucate while eating) and the people of First of the Sun take his technology...some people think that He didn't die but simply used Feruchemy to seems dead (storing healt and heat while tapping breath I suppose) to make his tech reaches First of the sun's popolation

 

[Pagerunner]

This thread from a few years back is required reading for this topic, and I think it covers everything you mentioned in your post except the Connection possibility, since we hadn't seen the Bands.

I'd recommend reading Sixth of the Dusk; it's easily my favorite of Brandon's novellas, and if you twisted my arm I might say it was my second-favorite story of his (after Way of Kings). Brandon is a sci-fi writer playing in a fantasy universe, so his sci-fi stories I've read have been great. (Firstborn, a non-Cosmere sci-fi story, is available for free.)

[Naurock]

@Pagerunner Thank you for the link to that thread! Fantastic read. I'm also a giant fan of Sixth of the Dusk. Very interesting storyline, and I'm curious why "The Ones Above" are so interested in the Aviar, or if it even is the Aviar. Also, has anyone else gotten a confirmation from Brandon about what other abilities the Aviar grant? We have only seen Sak and Kokerlii, but did it seem to anyone else like more abilities are possible/known?

Have we seen anyone in the Cosmere with the ability to

Spoiler

read minds?

Why else would "The Ones Above" want the Aviar? Or do they want to test them to see if other abilities can be granted? Maybe they are just interested in the worms?

[What's a Seawolf?]

This post was originally from 1stBondsmith's Geniuses Wanted prediction thread, but it fits well here.  Like I mention, Scadrians are far more likely, but just to through another theory out there...

'The Ones Above in Sixth of the Dusk (just read it, one of my favorite Cosmere works) are NOT from Scadrial as commonly thought.

The Ones Above are from Silverlight.

Khriss in her essay mentions the world Sixth of the Dusk takes place on is very difficult to get to.  This would obviously frustrate a (in theory) group of people who very much want to research the Cosmereverse, among other things.

However, as time progresses and FTL travel becomes a thing in the Cosmere, now the denizens of Silverlight have a way to get to the planet without having to pass through the shardpool of almost instant auto-death if you're not a Trapper.

And what do the Ones Above seem most interested in?  Researching the Investiture laden creatures (Aviars) and going directly to the place with the shardpool.  (Important note I did not mention the first time:  Who is more likely to have a semi 'no-trade' policy like the Ones Above?  Scadrians, or a group who's policy (I believe) is said to be nonintervention.) 

Now, a lot of that could apply to the Scadrians as well, and they are still far and away the most likely suspects for the Ones Above, but I like the idea of Silverlight finally gaining access to a place they've been trying to get to for a while.

Now, Silverlight's end goal with the planet could be anything, but that's for another theory.'

And since SotD takes place near the end of the Cosmere, there could potentially be a really big bad out there threatening the previously safe denizens of Silverlight.  Something that could protect their minds and foresee their deaths (and a magic that would work for everyone) would be extraordinarily useful in surviving that fight.

[C1-10P (Chopper)]

34 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

This post was originally from 1stBondsmith's Geniuses Wanted prediction thread, but it fits well here.  Like I mention, Scadrians are far more likely, but just to through another theory out there...

'The Ones Above in Sixth of the Dusk (just read it, one of my favorite Cosmere works) are NOT from Scadrial as commonly thought.

The Ones Above are from Silverlight.

Khriss in her essay mentions the world Sixth of the Dusk takes place on is very difficult to get to.  This would obviously frustrate a (in theory) group of people who very much want to research the Cosmereverse, among other things.

However, as time progresses and FTL travel becomes a thing in the Cosmere, now the denizens of Silverlight have a way to get to the planet without having to pass through the shardpool of almost instant auto-death if you're not a Trapper.

And what do the Ones Above seem most interested in?  Researching the Investiture laden creatures (Aviars) and going directly to the place with the shardpool.  (Important note I did not mention the first time:  Who is more likely to have a semi 'no-trade' policy like the Ones Above?  Scadrians, or a group who's policy (I believe) is said to be nonintervention.) 

Now, a lot of that could apply to the Scadrians as well, and they are still far and away the most likely suspects for the Ones Above, but I like the idea of Silverlight finally gaining access to a place they've been trying to get to for a while.

Now, Silverlight's end goal with the planet could be anything, but that's for another theory.'

And since SotD takes place near the end of the Cosmere, there could potentially be a really big bad out there threatening the previously safe denizens of Silverlight.  Something that could protect their minds and foresee their deaths (and a magic that would work for everyone) would be extraordinarily useful in surviving that fight.

I have not gotten to Sixth of the Dusk yet, I am still on The Secret History and that is quite revealing as it is.  My question is if there are any physical descriptions of the Ones Above?  Because the people described in this sound like they could be the Ire.  The Ire had a device that could locate Threnodites supposedly, they were interested in Possessing a Shard for their own, and they utilize power lines of some sort (the lines that glowed with power).  Is it possible that the Ones Above = Ire?

Edited December 2, 2016 by Aradishar
spelling

[Yata]

4 minutes ago, Aradishar said:

I have not gotten to Sixth of the Dusk yet, I am still on The Secret History and that is quite revealing as it is.  My question is if there are any physical descriptions of the Ones Above?  Because the people described in this sound like they could be the Ire.  The Ire had a device that could locate Threnodites supposedly, they were interested in Possessing a Shard for there own, and they utilize power lines of some sort (the lines that glowed with power).  Is it possible these are the Ones Above = Ire?

The IRE are not so similar to human to not point the difference and much more, if they are still seeking a Shard, why point to First of the Sun where there is no Shards ? Lastly, the Ire have quite knowledge of worlhopping to reach easier the Eye from the Cognitive instead of search it from the Physical

PS: Sorry I notice only after that you are new to the forum, welcome

Edited December 2, 2016 by Yata

[C1-10P (Chopper)]

10 minutes ago, Yata said:

The IRE are not so similar to human to not point the difference and much more, if they are still seeking a Shard, why point to First of the Sun where there is no Shards ? Lastly, the Ire have quite knowledge of worlhopping to reach easier the Eye from the Cognitive instead of search it from the Physical

PS: Sorry I notice only after that you are new to the forum, welcome

Thank you for the welcome.  I think that the Ire would have more than one iron in the fire so to speak and this may be just one path to gain power.  Not specifically related to gaining a Shard, but power in general (ala Hoid).  The lack of a Shard here might be why it makes more sense for them to use an FTL method to reach this world rather than world-hopping.  Do perpendicularities exist there to allow easy travel from the cognitive realm?  My ignorance on the 6th of the Dusk realm doesn't help my argument here, I know, just that they feel similar to the Ire.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Aradishar

[Weltall]

On 12/2/2016 at 0:14 PM, Aradishar said:

I have not gotten to Sixth of the Dusk yet, I am still on The Secret History and that is quite revealing as it is.  My question is if there are any physical descriptions of the Ones Above?  Because the people described in this sound like they could be the Ire.  The Ire had a device that could locate Threnodites supposedly, they were interested in Possessing a Shard for their own, and they utilize power lines of some sort (the lines that glowed with power).  Is it possible that the Ones Above = Ire?

We have some suspicion that one of the Ones Above is a kandra and/or someone with feruchemy because of what we hear in Sixth of the Dusk but we never actually see the Ones Above 'on-screen'. We do however know that they're a people we've seen before. The evidence for them being Scadrians is definitely stronger than the evidence for them being the Ire, though the possibility of them being from Silverlight is interesting and something that we could really only start thinking about just now that we've learned more about that location and the people to be found there.

On 12/2/2016 at 0:25 PM, Aradishar said:

Thank you for the welcome.  I think that the Ire would have more than one iron in the fire so to speak and this may be just one path to gain power.  Not specifically related to gaining a Shard, but power in general (ala Hoid).  The lack of a Shard here might be why it makes more sense for them to use an FTL method to reach this world rather than world-hopping.  Do perpendicularities exist there to allow easy travel from the cognitive realm?  My ignorance on the 6th of the Dusk realm doesn't help my argument here, I know, just that they feel similar to the Ire.

I can answer that if you don't mind a bit of material from the Arcanum Unbounded essay

Yes, there's a perpendicularity on First of the Sun which theoretically allows people to travel there from the Cognitive Realm. The problem is, it's fantastically dangerous to use. Khriss says that expeditions have been sent from Silverlight but none have returned. You'll probably have no trouble figuring out exactly where the perpendicularity is once you read the story.

[emailanimal]

On 12/2/2016 at 11:40 AM, What's a Seawolf? said:

Who is more likely to have a semi 'no-trade' policy like the Ones Above?  Scadrians, or a group who's policy (I believe) is said to be nonintervention

Non-intervention is a policy of the 17th Shard, which may or may not use Silverlight as its headquarters. (We know of at least one 17th Sharder who is NOT in Silverlight).

Silverlight is NOT a group. It is a location. New WoBs suggest that it is not a singular entity from the point of view of Cosmere politics/policy. 

It is also located in Cognitive Realm. How does one launch a spaceship from Cognitive Realm?

Khriss mentions expeditions to First of The Sun. The context of her mentions and some of the text in Sixth of the Dusk suggest that 

Spoiler

those expeditions came out at the pool on Patji and did not make it due to the treacherous nature of the island.

 

[Weltall]

7 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Silverlight is NOT a group. It is a location. New WoBs suggest that it is not a singular entity from the point of view of Cosmere politics/policy. 

It is also located in Cognitive Realm. How does one launch a spaceship from Cognitive Realm?

With the power of your imagination? xD

More seriously, we know from the postscript that the essay on the Drominad System was written at some time before the events of Sixth of the Dusk so it's vaguely possible that between her writing the essay and the time of the story, they figured out a form of FTL travel that gets around the problems of observing worlds that don't have perpendicuarities or at least have ones that aren't easily/safely accessible. Though I do still lean pretty heavily on the side of 'the Ones Above are from Scadrial' since we know they're going to have FTL technology eventually.

[A Budgie]

It's quite possible that Brandon is in fact trying to make it look as though it is the Scadrians, as it does hint, so when we find out who it really is we are surprised. Could you just imagine if he gave us an answer and it was an unconsidered group/people, like from Nathlis? Just to troll us. 
Also, since as we have said that Six of the Dusk is possibly very very far in the future of the cosmere, who knows what has changed?

[soyperson]

Just now, A Budgie said:

It's quite possible that Brandon is in fact trying to make it look as though it is the Scadrians, as it does hint, so when we find out who it really is we are surprised. Could you just imagine if he gave us an answer and it was an unconsidered group/people, like from Nathlis? Just to troll us. 
Also, since as we have said that Six of the Dusk is possibly very very far in the future of the cosmere, who knows what has changed?

You have a very good point. Perhaps another culture invaded Scadrial and used Hemalurgy to gain their talents, et c? These are always possibilities.

[A Budgie]

 

Just now, bleeder said:

You have a very good point. Perhaps another culture invaded Scadrial and used Hemalurgy to gain their talents, et c? These are always possibilities.

Yes, that's what I was thinking could be possible, although not nessasarily invasion.

[Jondesu]

4 hours ago, bleeder said:

You have a very good point. Perhaps another culture invaded Scadrial and used Hemalurgy to gain their talents, et c? These are always possibilities.

Who do we know that has already come to Scadrial and appropriated their technology, including Hemalurgy and the Ettmetal cubes at least?

Oh right. The Set. They're my new favorite candidate for the Ones Above.

[Windrunner]

I do want to point out a fact that I think has been overlooked quite often in discussions about the identity of the Ones Above. This is quote from a signed book, sourced here.

Quote

 "Dusk has had Herdazian food and hates it."

This leads me to believe that the Ones Above may not be the monolithic group that they might appear. This doesn't mean that they are Rosharans, but at the very least they've been to Roshar and have either brought some Herdazian food or have a way to prepare it. I do agree that the technology appears Scadrian, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Rosharan or two on the crew.

[The One Who Connects]

Insert obligatory Kelsier's interplanetary thieving crew joke here.

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Windrunner said:

I do want to point out a fact that I think has been overlooked quite often in discussions about the identity of the Ones Above. This is quote from a signed book, sourced here.

This leads me to believe that the Ones Above may not be the monolithic group that they might appear. This doesn't mean that they are Rosharans, but at the very least they've been to Roshar and have either brought some Herdazian food or have a way to prepare it. I do agree that the technology appears Scadrian, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Rosharan or two on the crew.

Given the timeframe of the WoB about having seen them before (ruling out IRE or Silverlight as an entity, I believe - and possibly even the Set though I'm unsure about that), and given the Ones Above rules on non-intervention (that individuals amongst them seem to be messing with), my top choice is the 17th Shard. They're about non-interference but not so good at it:

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

The 17th Shard is about nonintervention, but they're not doing so great a job, seeing as they took the common cold to Roshar.^!

They seem likely to be a diverse group of Worldhoppers who gather magic systems/technology from different systems, allowing for a combination of Herdazian food and seemingly Scadrial technology, who have a policy of non-interference but a desire to see a non-Shardworld survive and thrive.

I feel like they may be working around a general policy of non-intervention in a way to help FotS make the breakthroughs they need to survive the inevitable efforts of agents of interference (Hoid, Bavadin, the Set) to get hold of FotS magic. They want to reduce conflict between Shards. The quote below is pretty illuminating on their aims and methods:

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are a community-- well they are not all scholars, so I wouldn’t say that. I would say they are interested parties who do not want any planets to get destroyed.

QUESTION

So they’re the Apocalypse Guard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They aren’t really able to prevent these sorts of things. They’re like...Oh what are they called in DC...But those guys are powerful though, so it’s not like that, but you can imagine it’s something like that, right? We’re watching, studying, we’re investigating and we’re trying to prevent... They’re like Starfleet right? They’ve got some Starfleet stuff right? We’re gonna go research and study these people, but we shouldn’t be involved. It’s less about Prime Directive, and more about what it’s something to do that it exacerbates the conflict between the Shards. The Shards split up for a reason, is what they think, and they should continue to be split up, and we should not dabble in bringing them back together.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Extesian
Forgot quote

[soyperson]

7 hours ago, Windrunner said:

I do want to point out a fact that I think has been overlooked quite often in discussions about the identity of the Ones Above. This is quote from a signed book, sourced here.

This leads me to believe that the Ones Above may not be the monolithic group that they might appear. This doesn't mean that they are Rosharans, but at the very least they've been to Roshar and have either brought some Herdazian food or have a way to prepare it. I do agree that the technology appears Scadrian, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Rosharan or two on the crew.

Cosmere Trek?