mistborn Compounding Mechanics and Theories

[Sheridan_rd]

Actually in Final Empire, Vin watches Sazed in the LR's jail shrink while storing and expand when he taps Pewter

[YungDankBlast]

On 2/27/2017 at 2:52 PM, Sheridan_rd said:

Actually in Final Empire, Vin watches Sazed in the LR's jail shrink while storing and expand when he taps Pewter

Oh!  I did not catch that, thank you

[Sheridan_rd]

On 1/9/2017 at 11:55 AM, The One Who Connects said:

As per Brandon, you could store the strength granted by F-Pewter in a Pewtermind, but at that point you may as well compound. So.. I think you could store some of the speed granted instead of pewter-dragging, maybe the health too but that I am unsure about.

On the other subject, I largely agree with Yata. I think that the only difference between Feruchemists has to do with their physical qualities. A sick person can't store as much health as a healthy person, a heavier person gets a "larger" storage out of storing 100% of their weight than a lighter person, perhaps a sprinter might have some minuscule edge at storing speed than the average person.

I'm guessing with the introduction of the Medallions and the resurfacing of Hermelugy people with more than one Feruchemy power with show up in the book!

So Feru Feru Compounding will become a thing again.  Because Sazed was a scholar not a warrior we didn't hear of these methods.  What are your thoughts? 

I believe tapping F Iron can help store F Pewter; tapping F Pewter can help store F Gold; etc...

[YungDankBlast]

On 3/1/2017 at 6:06 AM, Sheridan_rd said:

I'm guessing with the introduction of the Medallions and the resurfacing of Hermelugy people with more than one Feruchemy power with show up in the book!

So Feru Feru Compounding will become a thing again.  Because Sazed was a scholar not a warrior we didn't hear of these methods.  What are your thoughts? 

I believe tapping F Iron can help store F Pewter; tapping F Pewter can help store F Gold; etc...

I don't think so... F iron taps only weight, and I'm pretty sure there is a WoB that mentions that the weight does not increase strength as well.  Similarly, I believe that increased strength would not help store health.  If you remember, when Wayne stores health he gets sniffles or is slightly sick, which would not change with increased strength.

[18th Shard]

Feruchemical iron does not store any physical strength; when tapped, however, it does make a body capable of dealing with the increased weight.

[Fatikis]

Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet.
AlloHema

Quote

MARU NUI ()

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences

There wouldn't be any super charging involved.  Hemalurgy steals the sDNA.  While it is invested with sDNA it wouldn't be a lot of raw power.

FeruHema:
We can assume this would work in a similar way to AlloHema.  Which means it probably would not do anything at all.
If it does do something.  Theoretically it may be possible to temporarily alter the sDNA with this method.  If you could tap the hemalurgic metal mind and use the identity it would be interesting.  I'm not certain if this is possible, but it could have major implications.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Fatikis

[Landis963]

On 2/17/2018 at 11:54 AM, Fatikis said:

FeruHema:
We can assume this would work in a similar way to AlloHema.  Which means it probably would not do anything at all.
If it does do something.  Theoretically it may be possible to temporarily alter the sDNA with this method.  If you could tap the hemalurgic metal mind and use the identity it would be interesting.  I'm not certain if this is possible, but it could have major implications.

One can assume that, but I seem to recall a WoB that Inquisitors could store Feruchemic aspects in their spikes.  

[The One Who Connects]

On 2/19/2018 at 10:14 AM, Landis963 said:

I seem to recall a WoB that Inquisitors could store Feruchemical aspects in their spikes.  

You recall right, although this is not the WoB I was thinking of

Quote

Questioner
Has a Hemalurgic Feruchemist ever used a Hemalurgic spike to tap power into it? Have they ever done that yet?

Brandon Sanderson
So a Hemalurgic spike is already Invested, so it's going to resist sticking anything else in it, particularly a magic like that.

Questioner
So if there's a pewter spike then a Feruchemist couldn't store strength in it?

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah. It would be difficult.

Edit: This was the WoB I was thinking of:

Quote

Maru Nui
Can you both Feruchemically charge and Hemalurgically invest in the same piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Maru Nui
What would happen if you burned the Feruchemically charged and Hemalurgically invested metal?

Brandon Sanderson
RAFO. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Fatikis]

On 2/19/2018 at 11:14 AM, Landis963 said:

One can assume that, but I seem to recall a WoB that Inquisitors could store Feruchemic aspects in their spikes.  

Doing this you are going to quickly run into problems with investiture resisting more investiture.  You might be able to store some, but it isn't going to be a lot.  It would probably be better to store in another metalmind.

More than likely Feru-Hema aren't going to react in nice ways.  Allomancy has these weird interactions because you are basically tricking Preservation's power into doing odd things.  With Feru the power comes from yourself.  With Hema the power comes from someone else.  Because of this you aren't running into a situation where you can tap into additional shardic investiture.  You'd only have access to stored investiture.

If you are only accessing stored power Feru-Hema would only have access to the stored attribute and the hijacked piece of sDNA.  The only interesting interaction I could see this having is somehow tapping into the stolen piece of soul contained hemalurgically without necessarily spiking yourself.  If you were to blank your identity you might be able to access the piece of soul in a hemalurgic spike feruchemically without using the spike.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Fatikis

[OdiYum]

I have s compounding question.  If I stored the ability for allomancy, say pewter, in a nicrosil metal mind.  then I burn that metal mind,  would the allomantic ability be enhanced?  Would I become a super thug, if I continued compounding?  If this is possible, what are the upper limits?  Could you reach super man levels of strength, durability and speed?  Thanks for answers because I have no idea.

Edited February 21, 2018 by OdiYum

[Calderis]

33 minutes ago, OdiYum said:

I have s compounding question.  If I stored the ability for allomancy, say pewter, in a nicrosil metal mind.  then I burn that metal mind,  would the allomantic ability be enhanced?  Would I become a super thug, if I continued compounding?  If this is possible, what are the upper limits?  Could you reach super man levels of strength, durability and speed?  Thanks for answers because I have no idea.

It would increase your allomantic strength with that metal. The higher your strength the faster you burn the metal, which increase speed proportionally, and it also increases efficiency, so you'd get more out of the metal. 

It could theoretically make you superman levels, but you'd probably burn through pewter so fast it wouldn't be worth it as pewter is already a quick burning metal. 

The trick would be finding the balance point, fueling the nicrosil Feruchemy and tapping the right amount to stay at a level that's well above a normal allomancer, but not burning through pewter so fast as to be unsustainable. 

[OdiYum]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

It would increase your allomantic strength with that metal. The higher your strength the faster you burn the metal, which increase speed proportionally, and it also increases efficiency, so you'd get more out of the metal. 

It could theoretically make you superman levels, but you'd probably burn through pewter so fast it wouldn't be worth it as pewter is already a quick burning metal. 

The trick would be finding the balance point, fueling the nicrosil Feruchemy and tapping the right amount to stay at a level that's well above a normal allomancer, but not burning through pewter so fast as to be unsustainable. 

Is this what the Lord Ruler did?  Or did he just give himself super strong allomancy when he was in the well?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, OdiYum said:

Is this what the Lord Ruler did?  Or did he just give himself super strong allomancy when he was in the well?

He rebuilt himself with the well. 

[Fatikis]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

It would increase your allomantic strength with that metal. The higher your strength the faster you burn the metal, which increase speed proportionally, and it also increases efficiency, so you'd get more out of the metal. 

It could theoretically make you superman levels, but you'd probably burn through pewter so fast it wouldn't be worth it as pewter is already a quick burning metal. 

The trick would be finding the balance point, fueling the nicrosil Feruchemy and tapping the right amount to stay at a level that's well above a normal allomancer, but not burning through pewter so fast as to be unsustainable. 

Seems like this would be dangerous.  Flaring metals often is hard on the body.  Using Feruchemy to compound pewter allomancy cannot be good for you.

[OdiYum]

Let's say you are an awakener who can also compound Nicrosil.  Can you compound awakening to make your awakenings cheaper?  That would be a very powerful hack.

edit:  I think it would be powerful because if allomancy becomes more efficient, wouldn't other types of compounded magic systems become more efficient.

Edited February 23, 2018 by OdiYum

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, OdiYum said:

Let's say you are an awakener who can also compound Nicrosil.  Can you compound awakening to make your awakenings cheaper?  That would be a very powerful hack.

edit:  I think it would be powerful because if allomancy becomes more efficient, wouldn't other types of compounded magic systems become more efficient.

I don't actually think this would work. Anyone who receives breath can learn to use it, so I don't think there's a spiritual portion that decides that your an Awakener beyond the breath you have. 

I'm curious if the breath itself could be compounded though, because there's a couple of different WoBs on this. 

Quote

kingbirdy (paraphrased)

Could Feruchemical nicrosil be used to store other Invested abilities, such as a Returned Breath or the abilities of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that's possible.

source

Quote

Necarion

Could a double-nicrosil Twinborn compound Breath or Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, you’re getting a RAFO card on that. You're getting SUCH a RAFO card on that!

source

But just putting breath into the metal isn't enough, so if it is possible, it would still have to be properly stored by a soulbearer Ferring. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn?”

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If he did that, he’d get allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal.

Footnote: supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already
source

 

[Fatikis]

21 hours ago, OdiYum said:

Let's say you are an awakener who can also compound Nicrosil.  Can you compound awakening to make your awakenings cheaper?  That would be a very powerful hack.

edit:  I think it would be powerful because if allomancy becomes more efficient, wouldn't other types of compounded magic systems become more efficient.

Thinking about this if you were to store breath in a Nicrosil-mind, burn the nicrosil mind with allomancy, you might be able to fuel the breath with some of Preservation's investiture.  This might give you something akin to a divine breath or maybe just a more powerful breath.

Hard to say how this would work for sure.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Fatikis

[YungDankBlast]

On 2/22/2018 at 7:11 PM, OdiYum said:

Let's say you are an awakener who can also compound Nicrosil.  Can you compound awakening to make your awakenings cheaper?  That would be a very powerful hack.

edit:  I think it would be powerful because if allomancy becomes more efficient, wouldn't other types of compounded magic systems become more efficient.

On 2/22/2018 at 7:48 PM, Calderis said:

I don't actually think this would work. Anyone who receives breath can learn to use it, so I don't think there's a spiritual portion that decides that your an Awakener beyond the breath you have. 

I'm curious if the breath itself could be compounded though, because there's a couple of different WoBs on this. 

But just putting breath into the metal isn't enough, so if it is possible, it would still have to be properly stored by a soulbearer Ferring. 

Yes, I think there is a big distinction that needs to be made on what Nicrosil can store.  For Allomancy, a person is Invested when they have the ability to burn a certain metal.  A person who is more Invested can burn that metal faster, and thus gain more power in a shorter amount of time.  Additionally, the more metals one can burn, the more Invested they are.  This is the same with Surgebinders or Feruchemists, their abilities show they are Invested (or perhaps being Invested manifests abilities?). 

With BioChromatic Breath, its not the ability to Awaken that denotes Investiture, but the Breath itself.  The more breath one has, the more Invested they are.  Thus while storing Allomantic Investiture would store an ability to burn a metal, my opinion is that storing Awakening Investiture would do something different.

But when Feruchemically storing, effects are temporary.  For example, you aren't stuck slow after storing speed, you gain your full speed back as soon as you stop storing.  Similarly, I think that you don't store the actual Breaths in a nicrosilmind, you store their strength. 

Here's the basis of my idea.  Lets say, for example, you have 50 Breaths, enough for the First Heightening.  While storing that Investiture in a nicrosilmind, you would store the strength of your Breaths, thus losing some of your life sense, and the aura recognition given by the First Heightening.  Then, by later tapping or compounding that nicrosil, you could gain a greater life sense than usual and, if strong enough, propel yourself into greater Heightenings, temporarily gaining their respective abilities.

Some other interesting things to note:

This would be very interesting when mixed with the Returned's single powerful Breath.  Not sure what effects that would have, but its interesting.

Theoretically, if idea were correct, you could store all or almost all of your Breaths' strength, becoming like a drab, invisible to the life sense of others.  Seems very useful for sneaking or seeming inconspicuous without having to recall your Breaths later.

[Scion of the Mists]

9 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

For Allomancy, a person is Invested when they have the ability to burn a certain metal.  A person who is more Invested can burn that metal faster, and thus gain more power in a shorter amount of time.  Additionally, the more metals one can burn, the more Invested they are.  This is the same with Surgebinders or Feruchemists, their abilities show they are Invested (or perhaps being Invested manifests abilities?). 

Not sure if this matters to your overall point, but while an Allomancer or Surgebinder is technically "invested" all the time, it's only when they're actually using their abilities that they are "invested" enough to resist other investiture.  (Putting invested in quotes because Brandon says that's not the right term)  

Quote

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, investiture resists investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the potential to use investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

source

 

[YungDankBlast]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Not sure if this matters to your overall point, but while an Allomancer or Surgebinder is technically "invested" all the time, it's only when they're actually using their abilities that they are "invested" enough to resist other investiture.  (Putting invested in quotes because Brandon says that's not the right term)  

Looking at the WoB you mention, it seems like "invested" the way Sanderson is using it here (in reference to the state of being a Surgebinder or Allomancer), refers to the connection to the Spiritual Realm that Allomancers and Surgebinders have through their Spiritweb.  When burning metals or holding more Stormlight, Sanderson says their resistance to other Investiture increases, or their connection to the Spiritual Realm increases, but they still resist other Investiture when not burning.  That resistance may not be enough to stop someone from soulcasting them, but it would make it more difficult than it would for someone who is not "invested".

Even if I'm interpreting the WoB incorrectly, this made me think of an interesting question.  In order to store in nicrosil, would an allomancer have to be burning metal?  Would a feruchemist have to be storing/tapping?  Would a surgebinder have to be holding stormlight?

[Random Reader]

I believe it is no for the feruchemist and allomancer and yes for the surgebinder

[YungDankBlast]

On 4/12/2018 at 5:29 PM, Random Reader said:

I believe it is no for the feruchemist and allomancer and yes for the surgebinder

And why do you think that?