mistborn Compounding Mechanics and Theories

[YungDankBlast]

This forum is mainly a response to the thread entitled "Compounding Mechanics", posted by 18th Shard.  Here is the link: 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4633-compounding-mechanics/#comment-74496

 

In that post, 18th Shard theorizes about the mechanics of the magic system and proposes the following possible forms of compounding:

1. Allomancy powering Feruchemy
2. Feruchemy powering Allomancy
3. Allomancy powering Hemalurgy
4. Feruchemy powering Hemalurgy
5. Hemalurgy powering Feruchemy
6. Hemalurgy powering Allomancy

This post will cover my personal opinions on the mechanics of these systems as well as the mechanics of the possible compounding types.  Feel free to make comments on my theories, propose your own ideas, and mention anything that you believe that I missed.  Check out the above link for the mechanics proposed by 18th Shard in his post.

First, we have Allomancy powering Feruchemy, or what I call AlloFeru compounding. This type of compounding has been directly proven by the novel, and was used by the Lord Ruler in the first Mistborn novel as well as Miles Hundredlives from the Alloy of Law novel to gain feruchemical power 10x that of the amount stored inside a metalmind by burning it allomantically. I am going over this one because there were debates on how it works. Some people argue that allomancy is merely magnifying the feruchemical effect, but I don't think this is the case. I believe that the feruchemical charge is a filter for the investiture typically gained while burning a metal. So burning a metalmind gives you the same amount of power usually gained from allomantically burning a metal, but in the form of feruchemical power. Also, you only gain the feruchemical effect while burning a metalmind, none of the allomantic effects, so the feruchemical charge in essence creates a new allomantic metal that gives a feruchemical attribute.  In a way, the steel without feruchemical charges already has a filter for the investiture, simply by being the right alloy to be an allomantic metal.  Let's say, for example, that steel has an innate filter of 0.1 allomantic "charge" (steelpushing) per gram of steel.  When burned, investiture is taken from the power of Preservation, and because of the end-positive nature of allomancy, the power is used through the filter, resulting in 10x the power of the filter, in this case 1 allomantic charge per gram.  If I were to instead feruchemically invest that piece of steel with 1 feruchemical "charge" (speed) per gram, the steel would adopt the new filter instead, overwriting the original allomantic filter.  However, allomancy is still end-positive, so when the steel with the feruchemical filter is burned, the investiture output still results in 10x the power of the filter, or 10 "charges" of speed per gram in this case.  I believe the filters and charges for the metals has to do with how the metal views itself in the Cognitive Realm, but that gets into Realmatic Theory, and I am not very experienced in that subject.

Next, Feruchemy powering Allomancy, or FeruAllo compounding, seems the most likely other than the already existing AlloFeru compounding.  This is the type of compounding that I believe that the Lord Ruler used to drastically increase his Allomantic ability.  The original idea proposed for FeruAllo compounding in the post is that you can burn an allomantic metal, then somehow store the allomantic ability in a metalmind instead of using it instantly. This would be beneficial so that the allomantic power could be tapped at much higher rates than possible with normal allomancy for greater power. The difficulty with this theory is that there is no known way to store allomantic power. The first theory presented on the forum argued that because AlloFeru compounding only required that a metalborn be a misting and a ferring in the same metal, the same should be true for FeruAllo compounding. They believed that a metal can store two things: both its feruchemical and allomantic powers. I do not personally support this theory because I feel that AlloFeru compounding works by using both the mechanics of Allomancy and Feruchemy, not by breaking those rules. In Allomancy, one can burn a specific metal and the investiture of Preservation gives them an ability, they are not burning a specific trait or ability, while in Feruchemy they are storing a trait, not a specific metal. So, AlloFeru compounding works because an allomancer can burn the metal independent of what feruchemical traits are attached to that metal, but FeruAllo compounding does not work this way because a feruchemist can only store the specific trait, they cannot store the allomantic abilities that can come from burning that metal. The second theory was that allomantic abilities could be burned and stored by a feruchemist in a nicrosilmind because nicrosil stores investiture. This seemed the most likely to me at first, but when Sanderson released BoM, nicrosil was used in a different way, though I suppose this method could still be possible using a metal with an unknown feruchemical ability (feruchemical lerasium?).  The alternate theory that I came up with, which seems the most reasonable to me, has some BoM spoilers so...

Spoiler

Investiture has two definitions.  The first definition is the power given while performing Allomancy of Feruchemy, such as the ability to steelpush while burning steel.  However, the second definition is what nicrosil can store: the ability to perform Allomancy or Feruchemy.  In BoM, the nicrosilminds are blanked so that anyone could use them, but in theory the original purpose would have been for a feruchemist to store the ability to perform Feruchemy in a different metal so that the nicrosilmind could later be tapped to be more powerful in that metal (to be able to store in other metalminds at higher rates, presumably).  So, because allomantic ability can be stored in a nicrosilmind as well, as shown in the novel, one could use this method to boost their Allomancy as long as they were at least a ferring in nicrosil and a misting in another metal.  They would be able to store their Allomancy in a metalmind, becoming less powerful in that metal for a time, then tap their nicrosilmind later while burning the metal in order to be more allomantically powerful in that metal.

 

It is at this point that we get into the more complicated types of compounding, mostly due to the fact that Hemalurgy comes into play. The idea behind Allomancy powering Hemalurgy (AlloHema) is that an allomancer spikes someone to steal a trait from them, then burns that spike, giving the allomancer the stolen trait with increased power. The downside to this is that because the allomancer burns the spike, they gain the trait only as long as they are burning the spike. This theory is somewhat likely, but I believe that there is a slight problem. Similar to when an allomancer burns a metalmind that isn't theirs, the allomancer in this case may be locked out of the power within the spike because it isn't attuned to their spiritweb. The way I see it, there are two different ways to get around this. First, an allomancer could burn a hemalurgic spike that stole an ability from them. The problems with this are that they most likely died from having that part of their spiritweb ripped from the rest of them (though it is possible that they survived), and their spiritweb may not actually be attuned to the ability because that part of their spiritweb was stolen from them. This would also not be very beneficial to them. By burning that spike, they would get increased power for a short time, but as soon as the metal of the spike was gone, they would have lost that ability forever. The other way I see to bypass this is for an allomancer to steal the trait from another person, then spike themself so that the power in the spike is part of their spiritweb. Sanderson has mentioned before that inquisitors could have theoretically burned their eye spikes, but it would have been extremely painful and would have knocked them unconscious. It would most likely be painful because the inquisitor would be burning away part of their spiritweb, ripping it away from them, similar to the way that traits are stolen during Hemalurgy. However, if one could somehow find a way to get rid of or tolerate the pain, they would be able to access the trait given to them by the spike with increased power, even though it would only last as long as they burned the spike. However, it may be impossible to get over the pain, making this form of compounding basically useless. One interesting interaction I thought about was using this form of compounding with, for example, a steel spike granting allomantic steel. By burning the spike, you increase the allomantic power of your steel, which increases the power with which you burn the steel spike, increasing the power again, repeating over and over again almost instantly giving the user infinitely powerful steel allomancy. If this is possible, it would only be possible with metals that could grant their own allomantic ability, such as steel, bronze, aluminum (inert), atium, and one other unknown allomantic temporal metal (not gold- most likely cadmium). The possibilities with these metals (except aluminum) are all interesting; let me know what you think.

Next is Feruchemy powering Hemalurgy (FeruHema), where you steal a hemalurgic attribute, then store the attribute in a metalmind to be able to tap at larger rates for greater power. There is a similar problem with this method of compounding as there was with the previous method, namely that the spike's power is not attuned to the compounder. So, similarly, the spike would have to be a trait that was stolen from you, or you would have to spike yourself with the stolen trait. The main debate for this type of compounding is whether feruchemical and hemalurgic charges can interact with each other. If they do, then a feruchemist should be able to directly tap the spike for the stolen trait.  My main problem with this theory is that there is no limit to how much hemalurgic charge one can tap from the spike, and though it would probably be related to how powerful the victim was in the stolen trait, it doesn't seem likely that the charges would interact in this way because they are separate systems.  My personal theory has spoilers again...

Spoiler

When you gain a trait through Hemalurgy, you then have a new investiture.  My idea is that, while spiked, one could store that newly gained investiture in a nicrosilmind, similar to how it is done in FeruAllo compounding.  After storing a desired quantity of that ability, you would theoretically be able to remove the spike and (assuming you survive) tap the nicrosilmind to use the investiture without having the mental instability and susceptibility to Ruin/Harmony that comes with a hemalurgic spike. 

 

Compounding types powered by Hemalurgy, HemaAllo and HemaFeru compounding, are... well... I think they are simpler than they appear. Actually, I believe that they have been used in the series already. The methods for these types of compounding as they were presented in the other post, I believe, are incorrect. Now, this is just a theory, so don't get upset, but compounding is the method of using one of the metallic arts to boost another, and the ideas for those two types of compounding in the post are only used to share investitures with others. For HemaFeru compounding, I believe that feruchemically storing an attribute into a spike would provide a filter, similar to how the feruchemical charge in AlloFeru compounding provided a filter for the power supplied through Allomancy. However, in this case the filter restricts what can be stored and gained during the hemalurgic process. So if I stored feruchemical speed in a spike, I would only be able to steal not only just feruchemical steel, but only my feruchemical steel because the feruchemical charge is attuned to my spiritweb. And, unless I stole my own feruchemical speed through Hemalurgy, I would not be able to steal an attribute from another person because of the filter. Either this is the case, or feruchemical and hemalurgic charges have no interaction with each other, in which case the spike would simply act as it normally would, stealing an attribute, not granting the other person feruchemical charges. For HemaAllo compounding, there is simply no way to store allomantic power in the spike. However, if there was a way, I believe that it would act in a similar way, creating a filter as the feruchemical charge did and having the same result. My theory is that these types of compounding are where you already have an investiture, for example allomantic bronze, and you spike someone and steal their allomantic bronze in order to boost your own allomantic bronze. Sound familiar? If this is the correct way to compound, then Vin was a compounder the entire time. The same goes with HemaFeru compounding, boosting feruchemical power by stealing the same attribute from another person. Its boring, I know, but I believe that it makes the most sense.

I wanted to add a little note at the bottom here to suggest the idea that multiple forms of compounding could be used in conjunction with one another, for example AlloFeruAllo compounding, where one stores allomantic investiture, then burns the metalmind for even greater power (or AlloFeruAlloFeruAllo... compounding). There are other combinations that include hemalurgic compounding as well, but I will let you guys look into those on your own.

I realize that some of the methods of compounding in this chapter did not follow the compounding rules presented on the forum, but I do not feel that renders these forms of compounding particularly impossible or unlikely.  If you feel I have broken fundamental rule of a metallic art, let me know.

Edit: If you stored Allomantic Nicrosil investiture in a nicrosilmind and compounded it, it may result in unlimited nicrosil power, and one could compound other nicrosilminds of other investitures to have unlimited power in those Investitures.

Edited December 28, 2016 by CayJoBla

[The One Who Connects]

Since there isn't a SoS/BoM Spoilers Sub-forum anymore, I don't think those will need to be in spoiler tags for any new discussion. That said, onto the actual topic:

AlloFeru - The Lord Ruler's, and any other Twinborn's method. Tried and Tested. Nothing to argue here.

FeruAllo - I don't know if it will be hinged on F-Lerasium, since it seems far too limited to be discovered in world.
     - The contents of that spoiler tag (The BoM method) is the idea I would support.

AlloHema - You've pointed out most every known or assumed side effect/complication with this method. As a note, I believe that an Inquisitor going unconscious from burning an Eyespike is a combination of what you said and the fact that the spike is directly next to the brain.
     - I can see the concept of burning the spike for a short burst of super energy, that is exactly what burning a Metalmind does if you don't store that 10x power for later.
     - I don't know if burning a steel spike granting A-Steel will give a second of infinite A-Steel power like you say, but there is most likely something unique about that interaction as opposed to burning a spike of another power. I like the idea, if only for the potential it may have.

FeruHema - Per Brandon, Inquisitors can and have used their spikes as Metalminds, so the systems can definitely interact.
     -Regarding your spoiler tag; I think that your spiritweb might not allow you to use the power after you remove the spike. That said, using the BoM method does seem to bypass this limitation, so it may work in theory.

HemaAllo & HemaFeru - It appears that you are implying that Compounding through Hemalurgy is basically adding spikes of that same power so that they stack. I can see how that idea can come around, A-Bronze & H-Bronze are how Vin can break a Coppercloud.
     - I don't exactly think that it works the same way for making your Feruchemy more powerful, but I also don't think we have an example of anyone doing this either.

Multi-Compounding Note - It is quite doable, but with some limits. Miles in Alloy of Law basically perpetuated a cycle of AlloFeru by burning a Metalmind, storing that 10x power in other Metalminds, then burning one of those for even more power. If any of the other 5 methods on here work, they can likely be perpetuated in that way. If you want to cross between methods, the ones that end with a burnable metal or a filled Metalmind can be used in the methods that start with a Metalmind or that burn a metal.
Regarding those limits I mentioned earlier:
     - A Feruchemical form of compounding is limited by the space in your available Metalminds.
     - An Allomantic method of compounding will eventually reach Mistpoint.
     - All Hemalurgic forms of compounding are limited by available people to spike.

About Your Edit - I am not sure if compounding Nicrosil that stores an Allomantic power would let you compound Nicrosil fueled Allomantic Power. I think it might lose some of its identity as an Allomantic power if it gets diluted by Nicrosil energy.
 

As an aside, if you store 100% of say.. A-Brass in a Nicrosilmind for an hour each day, would those 100%'s stack?
     - By this I mean, after a week(7 days) you could spend nearly a whole hour being 7 times(700%) stronger with your Soothing.
          - You may even reach a similar level to The Lord Ruler with this trick, which would be quite the feat in the modern era's.

[YungDankBlast]

On 12/28/2016 at 1:27 PM, The One Who Connects said:

- A Feruchemical form of compounding is limited by the space in your available Metalminds.

I was under the assumption that metalminds worked in a way where a Feruchemist could store as much as they wanted in a metalmind, simply increasing the concentration of the feruchemical charges, and it simply become more difficult to store the smaller the size of the metalmind and the larger the concentration of charge in the metalmind.  Is there proof that metalminds can be filled up all the way?  Another limitation is that rate that you can store into a metalmind.  It is mentioned somewhere that you can't store speed so that you are 1000000 times slower for 1 minute to be 1000 times faster for 1000 minutes.  So, if you were to store into a metalmind and burn it, you may not be able to store all the power that results from burning that metalmind. 

On 12/28/2016 at 1:27 PM, The One Who Connects said:

- An Allomantic method of compounding will eventually reach Mistpoint.

Remind me again what Mistpoint is?  Is that just where an Allomancer is using so much Investiture where they leak mist?  Plus, another limitation could be the amount of metal.

On 12/28/2016 at 1:27 PM, The One Who Connects said:

- I don't exactly think that it works the same way for making your Feruchemy more powerful, but I also don't think we have an example of anyone doing this either.

Yeah, I couldn't think of a way to keep Feruchemy end-neutral while increasing its power, so I just kinda guessed.

On 12/28/2016 at 1:27 PM, The One Who Connects said:

As an aside, if you store 100% of say.. A-Brass in a Nicrosilmind for an hour each day, would those 100%'s stack?
     - By this I mean, after a week(7 days) you could spend nearly a whole hour being 7 times(700%) stronger with your Soothing.
          - You may even reach a similar level to The Lord Ruler with this trick, which would be quite the feat in the modern era's.

I would even go so far as to say that this is how the Lord Ruler such powerful Allomancy, only he probably burned the nicrosilmind for a 70 times (7000%) stronger soothing or even more compounding layers.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

I was under the assumption that metalminds worked in a way where a Feruchemist could store as much as they wanted in a metalmind, simply increasing the concentration of the feruchemical charges, and it simply become more difficult to store the smaller the size of the metalmind and the larger the concentration of charge in the metalmind.  Is there proof that metalminds can be filled up all the way?  Another limitation is that rate that you can store into a metalmind.  It is mentioned somewhere that you can't store speed so that you are 1000000 times slower for 1 minute to be 1000 times faster for 1000 minutes.  So, if you were to store into a metalmind and burn it, you may not be able to store all the power that results from burning that metalmind. 

Remind me again what Mistpoint is?  Is that just where an Allomancer is using so much Investiture where they leak mist?  Plus, another limitation could be the amount of metal.

Yeah, I couldn't think of a way to keep Feruchemy end-neutral while increasing its power, so I just kinda guessed.

I would even go so far as to say that this is how the Lord Ruler such powerful Allomancy, only he probably burned the nicrosilmind for a 70 times (7000%) stronger soothing or even more compounding layers.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!

I cannot find a specific WoB where Brandon tells us that a Metalmind can be "full" but there are several instances of us asking him questions about a "full" Metalmind and he has never corrected us. I believe the origin of a filled one came from Sazed in WoA or HoA, but I'd have to reread to make sure.

As for the filling rate, you cannot store more than you have, and you cannot store beyond a point where it would be lethal, (such as not enough strength to make the heart beat) If you have excess from burning the Metalmind, you can store all of that and still be fine and dandy.

I believe "Mistpoint" is technically a fan term still, but yes. It's where you start leaking Mist. It reminded me of the Elend vs Marsh final battle when R&P are fueling them with power until they leak Mist. I think that's why we decided it'd be the upper bound. 

Both methods that use Allomancy to enhance another power (Allomantic form of compounding) start with either a Metalmind or a Spike, so it's not exactly limited by metal, but it's kinda limited by metal.

If we ever know for sure that TLR found a source/way to get Nicrosil, and managed to hide it from the Inquisitors (he kept powers from the common people to weaken the Inquisitors if Ruin ever escaped, so he would hide his new metal) then maybe.

Personally, I think it has just how strong he was and/or a prolonged soothing flare. I only brought him up in the example because he's the only real "superpower" to try and imitate.

Edited January 5, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Spellcheck doesn't work.

[18th Shard]

Good work updating my own thread with BoM information, I thought about doing so and then neglected to. 

I agree in context of FeruAllo compounding (remember, the original theory was pre-Sos) and in context of Allo- and Feru-Hema compounding. You succinctly described the confusion we have with AlloHema as well. With FeruHema, I agree with the idea, except I believe the Investiture you could tap from the spike to be finite, i.e. you could only tap out so much. Otherwise, one Hemalurgic spike becomes the means of unlimited medallions with no cost. I'm not sure if you intended to say this and forgot, but I see issues in the future with that.

On the latter two, I disagree on two counts, one logical and one opinionated. Personally, if HemaFeru compounding works as you propose, the fact that (as I believe is the case) only certain powers can be stolen from a bindpoint (i.e. I believe that, excepting the heart, there are locations that are power specific in the placement of spike for both donor and recipient of the spike), this effectively just means you can ensure that a spike stabs someone without having side effects that you had have an intent to cause anyway. This just seems redundant and narratively as an author I wouldn't include it. My opinion-based objection is thus: "But those are boring!" [*whiny kid voice*] 

On 11/10/2016 at 11:12 PM, CayJoBla said:

I realize that some of the methods of compounding in this chapter did not follow the compounding rules presented on the forum, but I do not feel that renders these forms of compounding particularly impossible or unlikely.  If you feel I have broken fundamental rule of a metallic art, let me know.

No, those weren't actual WoB supported rules. They were rules I came up with to define Compounding that I found intriguing as a predicative model. Your theory is just as valid as mine.

All in all, excellent sequel and discussion on Compounding Mechanics.

[YungDankBlast]

57 minutes ago, Okola the Misspellde said:

I agree in context of FeruAllo compounding (remember, the original theory was pre-Sos) and in context of Allo- and Feru-Hema compounding. You succinctly described the confusion we have with AlloHema as well. With FeruHema, I agree with the idea, except I believe the Investiture you could tap from the spike to be finite, i.e. you could only tap out so much. Otherwise, one Hemalurgic spike becomes the means of unlimited medallions with no cost. I'm not sure if you intended to say this and forgot, but I see issues in the future with that.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the previously proposed theory or my theory here, but my main idea with FeruHema compounding was that I did not think it was possible to directly tap the power of the spike because in Feruchemy you tap the certain attribute (say, I tap Feruchemical speed, which I previously stored) not the metal, similar to the way that you can't store allomantic steel power in a steelmind.  My idea was that you would still have to spike yourself to gain the attribute, making that Investiture part of your spiritweb.  Then, with that added Investiture and the spike still in you, you would store newly gained Investiture into a nicrosilmind.  Similar to how a person can store their innate Investiture with a nicrosilmind without running out, I think a person could store the Investiture that a spike grants them, until they remove the spike.  They would at this point have lost the Investiture that cam with the spike, but they could still tap the nicrosilmind (or burn it if they had that ability). for the amount of the Investiture that they stored while the pike was in them.  Not sure if that clears anything up, but there you go.  

As for how increase in the strength of Feruchemical Investiture works I have almost no clue, it was simply a guess.

1 hour ago, Okola the Misspellde said:

On the latter two, I disagree on two counts, one logical and one opinionated. Personally, if HemaFeru compounding works as you propose, the fact that (as I believe is the case) only certain powers can be stolen from a bindpoint (i.e. I believe that, excepting the heart, there are locations that are power specific in the placement of spike for both donor and recipient of the spike), this effectively just means you can ensure that a spike stabs someone without having side effects that you had have an intent to cause anyway. This just seems redundant and narratively as an author I wouldn't include it. My opinion-based objection is thus: "But those are boring!" [*whiny kid voice*] 

I know I was originally hesitant with those ones at first as well because, as you say, its boring.  Nothing new that we have not previously seen is there.  However, what made me eventually continue on with this idea was the combining of the Investitures.  Let's say I have Allomantic bronze Investiture of strength 3, and I am spiked with a spike that has a charge of an Allomantic bronze Investiture of 5.  With the spike, I would have a total Allomantic bronze Investiture of 8.  If the systems did not "compound", as I am roughly titling it, then it seems that I would two Investitures, an Allomantic bronze Investiture of 3, and an Allomantic bronze Investiture of 5, from which to choose when burning bronze.  Not sure if that made much sense, but oh well...

Overall, Hemalurgy is difficult to find interactions with the other systems that we would call "compounding" because it already interacts with all other magic systems, even those of the other worlds.

 

[YungDankBlast]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I cannot find a specific WoB where Brandon tells us that a Metalmind can be "full" but there are several instances of us asking him questions about a "full" Metalmind and he has never corrected us. I believe the origin of a filled one came from Sazed in WoA or HoA, but I'd have to reread to make sure.

Let me know if you find anything.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for the filling rate, you cannot store more than you have, and you cannot store beyond a point where it would be lethal, (such as not enough strength to make the heart beat) If you have excess from burning the Metalmind, you can store all of that and still be fine and dandy.

Is this WoB or from the novels?

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Both methods that use Allomancy to enhance another power (Allomantic form of compounding) start with either a Metalmind or a Spike, so it's not exactly limited by metal, but it's kinda limited by metal.

I just meant since Allomancy would consume that metalmind or spike burned, the amount of metal a person had would limit their ability to compound through Allomancy.

[The One Who Connects]

14 minutes ago, CayJoBla said:

I just meant since Allomancy would consume that metalmind or spike burned, the amount of metal a person had would limit their ability to compound through Allomancy.

Yea this bit was just an argument of technicality and semantics.

15 minutes ago, CayJoBla said:

Is this WoB or from the novels?

Here's some relevant WoB's. Here.

Quote

What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a Metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it.

You store that massive burst of energy in a Metalmind for later use. That has to be what he is saying there. Meaning that you can store until you reach those natural limits. Speaking of natural limits, here, and here.

Quote

And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Quote

Think of it this way--you can only fill a weight Metalmind with as much weight as you have to give. So you can become very, very light--but you only add to a time for doubling your weight.

---

23 minutes ago, CayJoBla said:

Let me know if you find anything.

Quoth the Coppermind's Feruchemy page:

Quote

The larger the piece of metal is (and the closer it is to Allomantic purity), the more of that particular attribute can be stored.

It does not have a source tag, so I imagine it was largely implied within the books and eventually became an established rule around here.

Ok, so I did a ctrl+f search for "full" and "fill" on theoryland for the entries with the words: Metalmind, Feruchemy or the tag Feruchemy. 2 entries that used a "full Metalmind" example without him correcting us, but nobody asked him if they could be "filled." So that facet on info may be on the reddit (that I am still awful at perusing) or in the books.

[YungDankBlast]

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Yea this bit was just an argument of technicality and semantics.

Here's some relevant WoB's. Here.

You store that massive burst of energy in a Metalmind for later use. That has to be what he is saying there. Meaning that you can store until you reach those natural limits. Speaking of natural limits, here, and here.

---

Quoth the Coppermind's Feruchemy page:

It does not have a source tag, so I imagine it was largely implied within the books and eventually became an established rule around here.

Ok, so I did a ctrl+f search for "full" and "fill" on theoryland for the entries with the words: Metalmind, Feruchemy or the tag Feruchemy. 2 entries that used a "full Metalmind" example without him correcting us, but nobody asked him if they could be "filled." So that facet on info may be on the reddit (that I am still awful at perusing) or in the books.

Oh wow!  Thanks for all of those!

I'm cleared up on most everything now, except for full metalmind, mainly because of the Bands.  Even if the metals on the Bands were 100% Allomantically pure, it doesn't seem like 1/16th of large spearhead would be able to hold all of the speed that Marasi uses, going faster than sound.  I still don't think that metalminds can be completely full, but even if they could, I don't think anyone has yet achieved that unless the Bands were full or the Lord Ruler filled a set at one point.

As for Brandon not correcting us, I believe that, the more you store in a metalmind, the harder it would be to store in it (also dependent on size and allomantic purity), and so there would be a point where it is no longer practical to store any more into that metalmind because the rate at which one can store is negligible.  It is possible that Brandon simply considered this a "full" metalmind, and did not think it important enough to correct us.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, but the Bands of Mourning make me question a little bit...

Edited January 6, 2017 by CayJoBla

[The One Who Connects]

14 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

Oh wow!  Thanks for all of those!

I'm cleared up on most everything now, except for full metalmind, mainly because of the Bands.  Even if the metals on the Bands were 100% Allomantically pure, it doesn't seem like 1/16th of large spearhead would be able to hold all of the speed that Marasi uses, going faster than sound.  I still don't think that metalminds can be completely full, but even if they could, I don't think anyone has yet achieved that unless the Bands were full or the Lord Ruler filled a set at one point.

As for Brandon not correcting us, I believe that, the more you store in a metalmind, the harder it would be to store in it (also dependent on size and allomantic purity), and so there would be a point where it is no longer practical to store any more into that metalmind because the rate at which one can store is negligible.  It is possible that Brandon simply considered this a "full" metalmind, and did not think it important enough to correct us.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, but the Bands of Mourning make me question a little bit...

There's another WoB (about A-Pewter, technically) where Brandon says that while he imagines Pewter gives double strength and a flare gives triple, he isn't sure about things like speed or health. He admits that he hasn't canonized some of these things.

Edit: oh yea, I have an image for easy reference

Edited January 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Reference, and now image size

[YungDankBlast]

On 1/6/2017 at 4:15 AM, The One Who Connects said:

There's another WoB (about A-Pewter, technically) where Brandon says that while he imagines Pewter gives double strength and a flare gives triple, he isn't sure about things like speed or health. He admits that he hasn't canonized some of these things.

Edit: oh yea, I have an image for easy reference

This reminds me of another idea I heard where a person could burn pewter, giving him more strength, speed, and health, making it easier to store those Feruchemical qualities.  I think this is a neat trick, but I had previously seen this mentioned as compounding, and I'm not sure it could be considered as such.  What are your thoughts?

[YungDankBlast]

I don't remember if I mentioned what I thought making someone more powerful in Feruchemy would do, and I couldn't seem to find it in what I wrote earlier, but I originally thought that if you were more powerful in a Feruchemical Investiture, then you would be able to store more.

I have now abandoned that idea after I read this:

Quote

SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)

And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

FOOTNOTE

When Brandon says "compounding" here, he is speaking in a purely Feruchemical sense.

Now, my idea is that if you are more powerful in a Feruchemical Investiture, it takes less energy to "compound" (speaking Feruchemically) the feruchemical attribute.  

For example, there are two brutes (pewter ferrings), Brute 1 and Brute 2, and Brute 1 is more powerful in his Feruchemy than Brute 2 because he has an extra spike granting him extra pewter Feruchemy Investiture.  Both brutes store 10 hours of strength at 50% of their strength.  If they were to tap their at the same rate, 50%, they would both be granted 150% of their strength for 10 hours.  However, if they were to instead tap at the rate of 100% of their strength, giving them 200% strength, Brute 1 would be able to tap at that rate for, say, 4.5 hours, while Brute 2 would only be able to tap for 4 hours because more of the energy of Brute 2's metalmind is spent toward "compounding" the feruchemical energy.

[Yata]

I still think that all the Feruchemists are naturally the same and the only way to have "different strenghts" is to make a Feruchemical power deteriorate (for example with Hemalurgy loss). In this context a "weak" Feruchemist can't store efficiently (something like I store 100% of my weight but the Metalmind recive only 90% and 10% is lost).

[The One Who Connects]

On 1/7/2017 at 6:47 PM, CayJoBla said:

This reminds me of another idea I heard where a person could burn pewter, giving him more strength, speed, and health, making it easier to store those Feruchemical qualities.  I think this is a neat trick, but I had previously seen this mentioned as compounding, and I'm not sure it could be considered as such.  What are your thoughts?

As per Brandon, you could store the strength granted by F-Pewter in a Pewtermind, but at that point you may as well compound. So.. I think you could store some of the speed granted instead of pewter-dragging, maybe the health too but that I am unsure about.

On the other subject, I largely agree with Yata. I think that the only difference between Feruchemists has to do with their physical qualities. A sick person can't store as much health as a healthy person, a heavier person gets a "larger" storage out of storing 100% of their weight than a lighter person, perhaps a sprinter might have some minuscule edge at storing speed than the average person.

[YungDankBlast]

On 1/8/2017 at 2:03 AM, Yata said:

I still think that all the Feruchemists are naturally the same and the only way to have "different strenghts" is to make a Feruchemical power deteriorate (for example with Hemalurgy loss). In this context a "weak" Feruchemist can't store efficiently (something like I store 100% of my weight but the Metalmind recive only 90% and 10% is lost).

Okay, I see your idea,  but where is that lost energy going?  I don't think it can just disappear...

Lets say Feruchemist A can store 100% of his weight for an hour and later tap 100% of his weight for an hour, with no loss of energy.  Feruchemist B decides he wants to be able to store his weight, so he spikes Feruchemist A, and Hemalurgically grants himself that ability.  Now, when Feruchemist B stores 100% of his weight for an hour, he can only tap 100% of his weight back for around 53 minutes, or 90% of his weight for an hour.  We can agree on this, yes?

Again, like with the other types of compounding, our difference is in the the two types of investiture.  Your idea is based on investiture (lowercase "i"), or that the actual power of a feruchemical charge decays and is lost to Hemalurgy, while my idea is based on Investiture (capital "I"), in that the mechanics of the Feruchemical system are less powerful due to Hemalurgic decay.  Both of our ideas have the same results, as shown above, but the mechanics are different.  Well, that and I believe that it could go the other way.

Here is my argument in favor of greater Feruchemical Investitures:

Feruchemy is an Investiture, and thus, it can be stored in a Nicrosilmind.  By the mechanics of Feruchemy, metalminds can be tapped at different rates for different strengths of the quality stored in the metalmind.  So, if someone were to tap a Nicrosilmind stored with another Feruchemical Investiture at a larger rate than the rate at which they stored, or if the burned the metalmind, then they must be more powerful in that Feruchemical metal.  Plus, Feruchemy is about balance... I don't there would be a way to be weaker in Feruchemy if there wasn't also a way to be stronger.

[Yata]

In 1000 years Feruchemy seems to be unchanged also if all its user were removed by the genetic pool and only the one with potential-feruchemy remained to make it spawn again. This may point to a not decrease system with every user is the same without different strenght.

30 minutes ago, CayJoBla said:

Feruchemy is an Investiture, and thus, it can be stored in a Nicrosilmind.  By the mechanics of Feruchemy, metalminds can be tapped at different rates for different strengths of the quality stored in the metalmind.  So, if someone were to tap a Nicrosilmind stored with another Feruchemical Investiture at a larger rate than the rate at which they stored, or if the burned the metalmind, then they must be more powerful in that Feruchemical metal.  Plus, Feruchemy is about balance... I don't there would be a way to be weaker in Feruchemy if there wasn't also a way to be stronger.

Actually this doesn't prove nothing...If you have a system that works perfectly you can't obtain a better system, instead the efficiency may be of course lower (and we are unsure also of this part).

Also the "fact" you may Store/Tap Investiture (in Nicrosil) with the result of different scale of powers is quite unsure, for example we know you can't become "stronger" than the one who put the Spirit-Web in the Nicrosilmind (for WoB).

This of course is true for any kind of Spirit-Web Stored in Nicrosil, but also if this wasn't true...There isn't the implication "your power have to become stronger if you tap more Spirit-Web regardes of how the Magic system works" the Feruchemy is already strictly limitless (there are some limits but they aren't magic limit...only outcome of using Feruchemy in some ways)

[YungDankBlast]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

Also the "fact" you may Store/Tap Investiture (in Nicrosil) with the result of different scale of powers is quite unsure, for example we know you can't become "stronger" than the one who put the Spirit-Web in the Nicrosilmind (for WoB).

Can you link me to this, I had not heard that.  That may change sone of my ideas... lol

2 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually this doesn't prove nothing...If you have a system that works perfectly you can't obtain a better system, instead the efficiency may be of course lower (and we are unsure also of this part).

My point is that Brandon himself has said that Feruchemy is not 100% perfect.  He has said that when you tap a metalmind at a greater rate than the trait was stored into it, some of the energy is used to "compound" (used purely in a feruchemical sense) the trait.  For example, if a feruchemist stored 50% of their weight for 1 hour, then tried to tap 100% of their weight to double their weight, they would not get half the time (30 minutes), they would get, say, 25 minutes of tapping 100% weight.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

This of course is true for any kind of Spirit-Web Stored in Nicrosil, but also if this wasn't true...There isn't the implication "your power have to become stronger if you tap more Spirit-Web regardes of how the Magic system works" the Feruchemy is already strictly limitless (there are some limits but they aren't magic limit...only outcome of using Feruchemy in some ways)

I don't think I understood this part...

[Yata]

First of all , sorry for the late answer...I tried to find the WoB but I can't remember if it was from Reddit or from an Event, I will link it here once I find it.

14 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

My point is that Brandon himself has said that Feruchemy is not 100% perfect.  He has said that when you tap a metalmind at a greater rate than the trait was stored into it, some of the energy is used to "compound" (used purely in a feruchemical sense) the trait.  For example, if a feruchemist stored 50% of their weight for 1 hour, then tried to tap 100% of their weight to double their weight, they would not get half the time (30 minutes), they would get, say, 25 minutes of tapping 100% weight.

I know Feruchemy isn't perfect or to be more precise I can't honestly call it in that way, once you actually overcome the phisical limit of Human Anatomy (end your Soul doesn't like it). But we don't know if this is a problem of the user or if happen for a Realmatic reason (for example your Soul's resistence).

14 hours ago, CayJoBla said:

I don't think I understood this part...

You have absolutelly right, I have to avoid to write post at late night, my english becomes awful.

What I wanted to say is:

The rule "tap more from Nicrosil and I become a more powerful magic user" may be horrible wrong. Some magic systems may benefit of "greater strenght" while others may not benefit from this kind of things (I don't want to put spoiler tag, but for example a lot of selish one and the Nalthisian one).

Therefore also if you could get a boost of "greater strenght" with Nicrosil (if I misreaded the WoB) there is no implication that this will work with every magic system.

[YungDankBlast]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

First of all , sorry for the late answer...I tried to find the WoB but I can't remember if it was from Reddit or from an Event, I will link it here once I find it.

It's no problem really...  Thank you for looking!

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I know Feruchemy isn't perfect or to be more precise I can't honestly call it in that way, once you actually overcome the phisical limit of Human Anatomy (end your Soul doesn't like it). But we don't know if this is a problem of the user or if happen for a Realmatic reason (for example your Soul's resistence).

True... I had not thought of it from a more Realmatic reason as I do not know much in that area.  However, could the resistance of each person's Soul be different from others?  It would make sense that this would be a reason for Hemalurgic decay of Investiture because the part of the soul in the spike and the person's soul could cause some friction, and thus greater resistance.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

What I wanted to say is:

The rule "tap more from Nicrosil and I become a more powerful magic user" may be horrible wrong. Some magic systems may benefit of "greater strenght" while others may not benefit from this kind of things (I don't want to put spoiler tag, but for example a lot of selish one and the Nalthisian one).

Therefore also if you could get a boost of "greater strenght" with Nicrosil (if I misreaded the WoB) there is no implication that this will work with every magic system.

Okay, I agree that we do not know this, and I realize I probably made an unreasonable conclusion by applying that idea to every Investiture.  It seems most logical to me that way, but I understand that it is far from sure.

[Vecna]

On 11/11/2016 at 5:12 AM, CayJoBla said:

Next, Feruchemy powering Allomancy, or FeruAllo compounding, seems the most likely other than the already existing AlloFeru compounding.  This is the type of compounding that I believe that the Lord Ruler used to drastically increase his Allomantic ability.  The original idea proposed for FeruAllo compounding in the post is that you can burn an allomantic metal, then somehow store the allomantic ability in a metalmind instead of using it instantly. This would be beneficial so that the allomantic power could be tapped at much higher rates than possible with normal allomancy for greater power. The difficulty with this theory is that there is no known way to store allomantic power. The first theory presented on the forum argued that because AlloFeru compounding only required that a metalborn be a misting and a ferring in the same metal, the same should be true for FeruAllo compounding. They believed that a metal can store two things: both its feruchemical and allomantic powers. I do not personally support this theory because I feel that AlloFeru compounding works by using both the mechanics of Allomancy and Feruchemy, not by breaking those rules. In Allomancy, one can burn a specific metal and the investiture of Preservation gives them an ability, they are not burning a specific trait or ability, while in Feruchemy they are storing a trait, not a specific metal. So, AlloFeru compounding works because an allomancer can burn the metal independent of what feruchemical traits are attached to that metal, but FeruAllo compounding does not work this way because a feruchemist can only store the specific trait, they cannot store the allomantic abilities that can come from burning that metal. The second theory was that allomantic abilities could be burned and stored by a feruchemist in a nicrosilmind because nicrosil stores investiture. This seemed the most likely to me at first, but when Sanderson released BoM, nicrosil was used in a different way, though I suppose this method could still be possible using a metal with an unknown feruchemical ability (feruchemical lerasium?).  The alternate theory that I came up with, which seems the most reasonable to me, has some BoM spoilers so...

  Hide contents

Investiture has two definitions.  The first definition is the power given while performing Allomancy of Feruchemy, such as the ability to steelpush while burning steel.  However, the second definition is what nicrosil can store: the ability to perform Allomancy or Feruchemy.  In BoM, the nicrosilminds are blanked so that anyone could use them, but in theory the original purpose would have been for a feruchemist to store the ability to perform Feruchemy in a different metal so that the nicrosilmind could later be tapped to be more powerful in that metal (to be able to store in other metalminds at higher rates, presumably).  So, because allomantic ability can be stored in a nicrosilmind as well, as shown in the novel, one could use this method to boost their Allomancy as long as they were at least a ferring in nicrosil and a misting in another metal.  They would be able to store their Allomancy in a metalmind, becoming less powerful in that metal for a time, then tap their nicrosilmind later while burning the metal in order to be more allomantically powerful in that metal.

I'm only going to focus on FeruAllom compounding because I don't really understand the Hemalurgy varieties at present - need to reread them.  Also, for all of my examples I am going to use Iron arbitrarily, but in most cases I think the logic extends to all the other metals with the possible exception of Nicrosil which I'll get to later.

 

So, my main problem with it having being discovered IC so far is that we aren't aware of any metalmind types OOC that can store 'Allomantic ability with Iron' / 'Steelpushing'.  Sure, Hemalurgy that steals that ability, but none of the metals we are aware of for any Feruchemical ability have the capacity to store more than one trait (and yes, I am classing the different senses stored with Tin as one trait here - I know that some people disagree with that assessment) and all the metals we know of have a trait listed.  Couple this with the fact it has been implied that the Lord Ruler could do FA Compounding, then we are restricted to the 14 metals that he knew about: Tin, Pewter, Iron, Steel, Copper, Bronze, Zinc, Brass, Gold, Electrum, Aluminium, Duralumin, Atium, and Malatium.

Oh, 15.  Lerasium, because he didn't use up all of the beads at the Well, and I don't know if we have a confirmed number of them - but I'd be very surprised if there weren't 16 to start with.  I can only account for 12 of them (10 noble families that supported the Lord Ruler at the start, Elend, and Hoid), which leaves four mysteriously absent from the Well.  Couple that with this WoB?  I think there's a strong case there that the missing element is a Lersasiumind forged from four beads (or maybe four smaller Lerasiuminds that he used for different Allomantic abilities - the speculation possibilities here are endless).

 

So, back to Nicrosil and it's link to FAC.  While I like the idea that, because a Nicrosilmind stores some nebulous Investiture quality that we don't really understand right now you could store Allomantic ability in it, I don't think we have anything that shows the Lord Ruler was aware of it as a metal - or at least not a metal he could get hold of, which is for my purposes here more or less the same thing.

 

We know that AFC works because the Feruchemy tapped acts as a filter on the Allomantic power being drawn in from Preservation (from the Spiritual Realm) that alters the Investiture so it is the same as the Feruchemical effect instead, so you get a larger amount of Feruchemy out than you put in.  What we're looking for as an equivalent, then, to my mind for FA Compounding is something that widens the pipe from Preservation.  Allows more Investiture to flow through than the metal-key normally unlocks.  This is sort of what A:Duralumin and A:Nicrosil do as far as I can tell: they act as a limited source of extra Investiture, the amount allowed through being, again, pre-determined by the lock opened by the metal-key.

But that's where I run dry, and my ideas come to an end.  What you could use to modify that pipeline entry, I don't yet know.  Maybe that's the effect of the Lerasiumind - you can store the size of your Allomancy hole (Go on, laugh.  Get it over with...) to the Spiritual Realm and Preservation's power.  While storing, your Allomancy is like a dribble of power from a water pistol; but while tapping, you have access to a full firetruck hose.  For a limited period of time, until you run out of charges.

[YungDankBlast]

20 hours ago, Vecna said:

I'm only going to focus on FeruAllom compounding because I don't really understand the Hemalurgy varieties at present - need to reread them.  Also, for all of my examples I am going to use Iron arbitrarily, but in most cases I think the logic extends to all the other metals with the possible exception of Nicrosil which I'll get to later.

 

So, my main problem with it having being discovered IC so far is that we aren't aware of any metalmind types OOC that can store 'Allomantic ability with Iron' / 'Steelpushing'.  Sure, Hemalurgy that steals that ability, but none of the metals we are aware of for any Feruchemical ability have the capacity to store more than one trait (and yes, I am classing the different senses stored with Tin as one trait here - I know that some people disagree with that assessment) and all the metals we know of have a trait listed.  Couple this with the fact it has been implied that the Lord Ruler could do FA Compounding, then we are restricted to the 14 metals that he knew about: Tin, Pewter, Iron, Steel, Copper, Bronze, Zinc, Brass, Gold, Electrum, Aluminium, Duralumin, Atium, and Malatium.

Oh, 15.  Lerasium, because he didn't use up all of the beads at the Well, and I don't know if we have a confirmed number of them - but I'd be very surprised if there weren't 16 to start with.  I can only account for 12 of them (10 noble families that supported the Lord Ruler at the start, Elend, and Hoid), which leaves four mysteriously absent from the Well.  Couple that with this WoB?  I think there's a strong case there that the missing element is a Lersasiumind forged from four beads (or maybe four smaller Lerasiuminds that he used for different Allomantic abilities - the speculation possibilities here are endless).

 

So, back to Nicrosil and it's link to FAC.  While I like the idea that, because a Nicrosilmind stores some nebulous Investiture quality that we don't really understand right now you could store Allomantic ability in it, I don't think we have anything that shows the Lord Ruler was aware of it as a metal - or at least not a metal he could get hold of, which is for my purposes here more or less the same thing.

 

We know that AFC works because the Feruchemy tapped acts as a filter on the Allomantic power being drawn in from Preservation (from the Spiritual Realm) that alters the Investiture so it is the same as the Feruchemical effect instead, so you get a larger amount of Feruchemy out than you put in.  What we're looking for as an equivalent, then, to my mind for FA Compounding is something that widens the pipe from Preservation.  Allows more Investiture to flow through than the metal-key normally unlocks.  This is sort of what A:Duralumin and A:Nicrosil do as far as I can tell: they act as a limited source of extra Investiture, the amount allowed through being, again, pre-determined by the lock opened by the metal-key.

But that's where I run dry, and my ideas come to an end.  What you could use to modify that pipeline entry, I don't yet know.  Maybe that's the effect of the Lerasiumind - you can store the size of your Allomancy hole (Go on, laugh.  Get it over with...) to the Spiritual Realm and Preservation's power.  While storing, your Allomancy is like a dribble of power from a water pistol; but while tapping, you have access to a full firetruck hose.  For a limited period of time, until you run out of charges.

Yeah, my original idea was that Lerasium feruchemy had something to do with FAC, but I got confused on what that would store/tap, and I couldn't come up with any ideas that made sense.  It seems to me like it should store something opposite of Atium, but I don't know that it makes sense that Lerasium would store something like youth.  Though it makes theoretical sense, atium storing the body's decay and lerasium storing its preservation, it would defeat the purpose of TLR using atiumminds, since there were most likely 16 lerasium beads.  I think we should continue to pursue ideas about feruchemical lerasium.

Lastly, are we 100% sure that TLR didn't know about all of the allomantic metals?  It seems to me like we would have found out about al the metals when he Ascended because Sazed almost immediately told Spook that there were other allomantic metals.  Because if there is no WOB, then there is still a possibility that TLR knew about nicrosil.  Plus, there is the idea of the Bands of Mourning.  Whoever made the Bands (it seems like either TLR or Kelsier at this point) knew about nicrosil feruchemy.

[Vecna]

1 minute ago, CayJoBla said:

Lastly, are we 100% sure that TLR didn't know about all of the allomantic metals?  It seems to me like we would have found out about al the metals when he Ascended because Sazed almost immediately told Spook that there were other allomantic metals.  Because if there is no WOB, then there is still a possibility that TLR knew about nicrosil.  Plus, there is the idea of the Bands of Mourning.  Whoever made the Bands (it seems like either TLR or Kelsier at this point) knew about nicrosil feruchemy.

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree - but I find it a moot point defining Nicrosil as "A metal the Lord Ruler didn't know about" and as "A metal the Lord Ruler knew about but didn't have access to".

If he'd had access to Nicrosil, he would almost by definition have had access to Chromium, which would have been a lot easier for his Steel Inquisitors to use on Allomancers instead of tricking them into burning the very difficult to obtain Aluminium.

 

I don't have any WoBs on this, though, so it's just extrapolation and speculation on my part.

[The One Who Connects]

42 minutes ago, Vecna said:

If he'd had access to Nicrosil, he would almost by definition have had access to Chromium, which would have been a lot easier for his Steel Inquisitors to use on Allomancers instead of tricking them into burning the very difficult to obtain Aluminium.

While the semantics are still a moot point, he wouldn't give them Chromium even if he did have access to it, as they could use that against him.

49 minutes ago, CayJoBla said:

Lastly, are we 100% sure that TLR didn't know about all of the allomantic metals? [..] Because if there is no WOB, then there is still a possibility that TLR knew about nicrosil.  [..] Whoever made the Bands (it seems like either TLR or Kelsier at this point) knew about nicrosil feruchemy.

Secret History Spoilers (relating to knowing stuff for the Bands)

Spoiler

Kelsier held Preservation himself, while TLR only used the Well.

(Don't know if that makes a difference, but...) Also, the Nicrosil WoB was basically a non-answer: "The Lord Ruler knew a lot of things nobody knows."

[Sheridan_rd]

On 1/9/2017 at 11:55 AM, The One Who Connects said:

As per Brandon, you could store the strength granted by F-Pewter in a Pewtermind, but at that point you may as well compound. So.. I think you could store some of the speed granted instead of pewter-dragging, maybe the health too but that I am unsure about.

I may be alone in this opinion, but I believe a double Pewter twinborn could store strength in their pewter mind by burning Pewter, which would be the disproportionate strength from Alcomancy and not the increase in muscle size typical of a Brute (pewter ferring).

So despite Compounding granting more "strength", storing Alcomancy pewter would have significant advantages.  (I.e. - being Superman compared to the Hulk

[YungDankBlast]

15 minutes ago, Sheridan_rd said:

I may be alone in this opinion, but I believe a double Pewter twinborn could store strength in their pewter mind by burning Pewter, which would be the disproportionate strength from Alcomancy and not the increase in muscle size typical of a Brute (pewter ferring).

So despite Compounding granting more "strength", storing Alcomancy pewter would have significant advantages.  (I.e. - being Superman compared to the Hulk

It's possible... but if I'm remembering correctly I don't think that a feruchemist shrinks in size when they store strength, so I think the growth simply comes from the body trying to replicate the strength being drawn from the metalminds.

Lol, but even as I write this I'm confusing myself about the mechanics of it.  Just to clarify, I don't think tapping pewter increases weight, and I think the size is only a side effect of tapping more strength from the metalmind than the body can handle without increasing the size of the muscles.